ECT Rightly Dividing MADs

[Right Divider]

The appearance of the Lord Jesus which is imminent has nothing to do with Him setting up the earthly kingdom. The imminent appearance can happen at any moment but the Lord Jesus' return to set up the kingdom cannot happen until certain things happen first, such as the setting up of the abomination of desolation in the holy place.

The following is another verse from the Hebrew epistles which also speaks of an imminent coming of the Lord:

"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look (apekdechomai) for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation" (Heb.9:28).​

Here the Greek word apekdechomai is used and it means "to expect, wait or look for" (The Analytical Greek Lexicon Revised, 37).

If the "appearing" of the Lord Jesus could not happen until certain prophesised events occured then it is evident that before those events happened no one would be looking for that appearance, much less eagerly looking for that appearance:

apekdechomai: "To await eagerly or expectantly for some future event...to look forward eagerly, to await expectantly " (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domains; Volume 2, ed. Louw and Nida, 296).​

According to your confused ideas the appearance of the Lord Jesus which those who received the book of Hebrews were eagerly awaiting is the following one:

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place...For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be...and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt.24:15,21,30).​

It is evident that those who received the book of Hebrews would not be looking for the Lord "expectantly" if the Lord's appearance spoken of at Hebrews 9:28 is one which must be preceded by the setting up of the abomination of desolation and the great tribulation. They would not be "expecting" Him to appear until those events had already happened so it is impossible that they would be "looking" for Him to appear and it would also be impossible for them to be "waiting expectantly" for His appearance if the appearance in view is the one described at Matthew 24:30.

The only coming of the Lord which they would be looking for expectantly is the one described by Paul here:

"For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for (apekdechomai) the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself" (Phil.3:20-21).​

The folks at StudyLight.org have the following to say about the Greek word apekdechomai:

"The word occurs in Philippians 3:20 where it is translated 'look for' (KJV) or 'eagerly wait' (NKJV, NASB), indicating the intense feeling of imminency characteristic of those in the first century who were actively watching for the coming of the Lord from glory."​

That is exactly the same Greek word used by the author of Hebrews in the verse under discussion:

"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look (apekdechomai) for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation" (Heb.9:28).

The Greek word apekdechomai is used six times in the NT (Ro.8:23,25, 1 Cor.1:7, Gal.5:5, Phil.3:20, Heb.9:28) and in every single instance it is used in connection with the Lord Jesus' coming at the rapture. Common sense dictates that the author of Hebrews would not be urging anyone to be looking for the appearance of the Lord Jesus with an attitude of eager expectancy unless that appearance could happen at any moment.

The "catching away" and the meeting Him in the air is not His return TO the earth per Zechariah 14.

His actual return to the earth comes after the events that you mention.

Once AGAIN, the destiny and calling of Israel is NOT the same as the body of Christ.... no matter how much you protest.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Once AGAIN, the destiny and calling of Israel is NOT the same as the body of Christ.... no matter how much you protest.

Once AGAIN, there is only one imminent appearance of the Lord Jesus and only those in the Body were expecting that imminent appearance. And since those who received the Hebrew epistles were expecting that imminent appearance then those who received the Hebrew epistles were members of the Body.

And the Scriptures declare in no uncertain terms that the Jewish believers were baptized into the Body of Christ (1 Cor.12:13) and here Paul speaks of the middle wall of partition being broken down between the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

According to your ideas the middle wall of partition remains up and has not been broken down between all of the first century Jewish believers and the Gentile believers. For your ideas to be correct then we must imagine that a part of that middle wall remains up and has not been broken down.

The "catching away" and the meeting Him in the air is not His return TO the earth per Zechariah 14.

His actual return to the earth comes after the events that you mention.

Yes, and the Twelve will return to the earth with the Lord Jesus when the other members of the Body return. After all, after meeting the Lord in the air all of the members of the Body will be with Him for ever (1 Thess.4:17) so all will be with Him when He returns to the earth.

 

[john w]

The appearance of the Lord Jesus which is imminent has nothing to do with Him setting up the earthly kingdom. The imminent appearance can happen at any moment but the Lord Jesus' return to set up the kingdom cannot happen until certain things happen first, such as the setting up of the abomination of desolation in the holy place.

The following is another verse from the Hebrew epistles which also speaks of an imminent coming of the Lord:

"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look (apekdechomai) for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation" (Heb.9:28).​

Here the Greek word apekdechomai is used and it means "to expect, wait or look for" (The Analytical Greek Lexicon Revised, 37).

If the "appearing" of the Lord Jesus could not happen until certain prophesised events occured then it is evident that before those events happened no one would be looking for that appearance, much less eagerly looking for that appearance:

apekdechomai: "To await eagerly or expectantly for some future event...to look forward eagerly, to await expectantly " (Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domains; Volume 2, ed. Louw and Nida, 296).​

According to your confused ideas the appearance of the Lord Jesus which those who received the book of Hebrews were eagerly awaiting is the following one:

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place...For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be...and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory" (Mt.24:15,21,30).​

It is evident that those who received the book of Hebrews would not be looking for the Lord "expectantly" if the Lord's appearance spoken of at Hebrews 9:28 is one which must be preceded by the setting up of the abomination of desolation and the great tribulation. They would not be "expecting" Him to appear until those events had already happened so it is impossible that they would be "looking" for Him to appear and it would also be impossible for them to be "waiting expectantly" for His appearance if the appearance in view is the one described at Matthew 24:30.

The only coming of the Lord which they would be looking for expectantly is the one described by Paul here:

"For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for (apekdechomai) the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself" (Phil.3:20-21).​

The folks at StudyLight.org have the following to say about the Greek word apekdechomai:

"The word occurs in Philippians 3:20 where it is translated 'look for' (KJV) or 'eagerly wait' (NKJV, NASB), indicating the intense feeling of imminency characteristic of those in the first century who were actively watching for the coming of the Lord from glory."​

That is exactly the same Greek word used by the author of Hebrews in the verse under discussion:

"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look (apekdechomai) for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation" (Heb.9:28).

The Greek word apekdechomai is used six times in the NT (Ro.8:23,25, 1 Cor.1:7, Gal.5:5, Phil.3:20, Heb.9:28) and in every single instance it is used in connection with the Lord Jesus' coming at the rapture. Common sense dictates that the author of Hebrews would not be urging anyone to be looking for the appearance of the Lord Jesus with an attitude of eager expectancy unless that appearance could happen at any moment.

So, Hebrews is "rapture" country, Pate, Jr.?

My post,#298, #308:

I hope to get Jerry to give us, as you say, "the big picture," and tell us if James, Revelation, is also written to members of the boc, like he says Hebrews is, and, if not, why not.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So, Hebrews is "rapture" country, Pate, Jr.?

At the time when the book of Hebrews was written Israel had already been temporarily set aside and the Jewish believers were baptized into the Body of Christ:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

You and all of the rest of the Bullingerites on this forum have a short memory.

 

[john w]

At the time when the book of Hebrews was written Israel had already been temporarily set aside and the Jewish believers were baptized into the Body of Christ:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Cor.12:13).​

I did not ask that. I asked:So, Hebrews is "rapture" country, Pate, Jr.?

You and all of the rest of the Bullingerites on this forum have a short memory.

All you Acts 2 "it all says the same thing" Walvoordites/Ironsideites have dementia, old baldy man.



Is James not written to the boc? Why not, if no? Is James "rapture country?"


Check.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Check.

So you finally understand that believing Jews were baptized into the Body of Christ?

What took you so long, sonny boy?

 

[john w]

So you finally understand that believing Jews were baptized into the Body of Christ?

What took you so long, sonny boy?

Keep up your deceit, like the above,and misdirection, evasion, nd your misquoting me, as you do others on TOL, and I will misquote you likewise.


I did not ask that. I asked:So, Hebrews is "rapture" country, Pate, Jr.?


All you Acts 2 "it all says the same thing" Walvoordites/Ironsideites have dementia, old baldy man.



Is James not written to the boc? Why not, if no? Is James "rapture country?"

 

[john w]

So you finally understand that believing Jews were baptized into the Body of Christ?

What took you so long, sonny boy?

So, you finally understand, although the Lord Jesus Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit, not having a human father, he is identical to a baby, in that they both have no original sin, and identical to the virgin Mary, as my Catholic faith believes.

How long did it take you to get bald, old man? Banned from www.christianforums.com, were you, baldie? Sowing discord, amongst the brethren, there, like you do here, did you, loser? Deported to Mexico, portly one? Yes....How about posting that baldie mug shot, old man,instead of the men,those "giants," from which you copy'npaste, in your avatar, you post, being a man worshiper?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Keep up your deceit, like the above,and misdirection, evasion, nd your misquoting me, as you do others on TOL, and I will misquote you likewise.

Little johnny boy's got his panties in a knot again!

He can't stand it because I reminded him that in the first century believing Jews were baptized into the Body of Christ:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Jn.12:13).​

Sonny boy just cannot believe that the middle wall of partition which stood between the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers has been broken down and all of the first century Jewish believers were made members of the Body of Christ:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

Sonny boy seems to think that the middle wall of partition remained up and continued to separate some of the first century Jewish believers from the Gentile believers.

 

[Right Divider]

Little johnny boy's got his panties in a knot again!

He can't stand it because I reminded him that in the first century believing Jews were baptized into the Body of Christ:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Jn.12:13).​

That is certainly true for those that are in the body of Christ.

What difference is there between Israel and the body of Christ? Any?

P.S. That's 1 Cor and not 1 Jn.

 

[john w]

Little johnny boy's got his panties in a knot again!

He can't stand it because I reminded him that in the first century believing Jews were baptized into the Body of Christ:

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit" (1 Jn.12:13).​

Sonny boy just cannot believe that the middle wall of partition which stood between the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers has been broken down and all of the first century Jewish believers were made members of the Body of Christ:

"But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:13-16).​

Sonny boy seems to think that the middle wall of partition remained up and continued to separate some of the first century Jewish believers from the Gentile believers.

Little, you quip, portly, balding old man? Real tough guy, are you, Wally Cox look-a-like, little old man? I/others, have seen your weasel frame. Feel better, old man, acting "tough?" Weighty, Mr. Peepers.

And, as usual-Non responsive, portly, baldie old man.

I did not ask that. I asked:So, Hebrews is "rapture" country, Pate, Jr.?
Is 1 John? Is 2 John? Is 1 Peter? Is 2 Peter? What the h...Tells us what books, in Hebrews-Revelation, are specifically applicable to the boc, "written to"(your words), the boc, and why, baldie fat man. Go ahead. Specifics, "banned from many sites for sowing discord" one. We are all busy men/women, to put up with your spittle, drooling, choking on the meat we provide you, kid. Pull up your bunny shirt, and bib, tike, and give us specifics, instead of generalities, w/o your "scripture posted in isolation" deceitful method.

And shuck your humanism, and "Well, sir....says..." on just a few posts, "addicted to men" Robert Palmer, Jr.

How is that Acts 2 "it all says the same thing" Walvoordites/Ironsideites dementia, old baldy man?



Is James not written to the boc? Why not, if no? Is James "rapture country?"
Tell us if the rapture/seizure by force/catching away is discussed in Hebrews-Revelation.

Sonny boy just cannot believe that...

Frail old man Jer just cannot believe that all scripture is not written to us,for our obedience, or is about us. Why should we believe you, instead of Paul, little frail old man?

How'd I do?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

P.S. That's 1 Cor and not 1 Jn.

Thanks!

That is certainly true for those that are in the body of Christ.

What difference is there between Israel and the body of Christ? Any?

First of all, Israel was temporarily cast aside by the time when the Hebrew epistles were written. So the practical teaching found in those epistles is dealing with Israel as a nation or anything to do with the unfulfilled prophecies concerning that nation.

Those epistles were written during the time when the present dispensation was in force and they were received by those who lived in the time when the present dispensation was in force.

So why should anyone think that the teaching found in those epistles is for a future time? Surely if the teaching found in those epistles is not for the time when they were written and received the authors would have told those who received them that. But those epistles will be searched in vain for any evidence that anyone was told that the teaching was not for the time when they were written and received.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

And, as usual-Non responsive, portly, baldie old man.

At least you recognize that you had no response to Paul's words which I quoted at Ephesians 2:14-16.

Sonny boy: The middle wall of partition still stood between some of the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers.

Paul: The middle wall of partition has been broken down between the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers.

 

[john w]

So why should anyone think that the teaching found in those epistles is for a future time? Surely if the teaching found in those epistles is not for the time when they were written and received the authors would have told those who received them that. But those epistles will be searched in vain for any evidence that anyone was told that the teaching was not for the time when they were written and received.

So, all of the teachings of Hebrews-Revelation, "are written to"(your words) members of the boc, Mr. Peepers? Unpack it for us, bald, little old man, sower of discord.

 

[john w]

At least you recognize that you had no response to Paul's words which I quoted at Ephesians 2:14-16.

Sonny boy: The middle wall of partition still stood between some of the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers.

Paul: The middle wall of partition has been broken down between the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers.

And, as usual-Non responsive, Wally Cox look-a-like, baldie.

I did not ask that. I asked:So, Hebrews is "rapture" country, Pate, Jr.?
Is 1 John? Is 2 John? Is 1 Peter? Is 2 Peter? What the h...Tells us what books, in Hebrews-Revelation, are specifically applicable to the boc, "written to"(your words), the boc, and why, baldie fat man. Go ahead. Specifics, "banned from many sites for sowing discord" one. We are all busy men/women, to put up with your spittle, drooling, choking on the meat we provide you, kid. Pull up your bunny shirt, and bib, tike, and give us specifics, instead of generalities, w/o your "scripture posted in isolation" deceitful method.

And shuck your humanism, and "Well, sir....says..." on just a few posts, "addicted to men" Robert Palmer, Jr.

How is that Acts 2 "it all says the same thing" Walvoordites/Ironsideites dementia, old baldy man?



Is James not written to the boc? Why not, if no? Is James "rapture country?"
Tell us if the rapture/seizure by force/catching away is discussed in Hebrews-Revelation.

At least you recognize that you had no response to Paul's words which I quoted in Romans-Philemon, as you continue to run and hide.


Tell us about the "rapture," in Hebrews-Revelation. Do be a dear, Mr. Peepers.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I asked:So, Hebrews is "rapture" country, Pate, Jr.?
Is 1 John?

Let's look what the Apostle John said here:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).​

John told these believers that they were expecting to see the Lord Jesus appear while they remained alive and they were expecting that then they would be made like Him. There is not even a hint that when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth that any living believers will be made like Him when he appears. So John's words can only be in regard to the "mystery" truth found here:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor.15:51-52).​

 

[Right Divider]

Thanks!

You're welcome.

First of all, Israel was temporarily cast aside by the time when the Hebrew epistles were written. So the practical teaching found in those epistles is dealing with Israel as a nation or anything to do with the unfulfilled prophecies concerning that nation.

Those that were a part of the kingdom of Israel did not have a change in their calling. So the Hebrew epistles (including the book to the Hebrews) pertains directly to THEM regardless of the introduction of a new dispensation. Peter and the eleven STILL belong to the dispensation in which they were called.

Those epistles were written during the time when the present dispensation was in force and they were received by those who lived in the time when the present dispensation was in force.

You, once again, conflate a dispensation with a period of time. It matters not that the books, like 1st and 2nd Peter were written after the introduction of the dispensation of the grace of God. God does NOT change a persons calling (as you've been shown many times).

So why should anyone think that the teaching found in those epistles is for a future time?

Because of the CONTENT and NOT the time at which is was written!

Surely if the teaching found in those epistles is not for the time when they were written and received the authors would have told those who received them that. But those epistles will be searched in vain for any evidence that anyone was told that the teaching was not for the time when they were written and received.

Sorry that they don't meet YOUR requirements. Scripture does not have to meet YOUR requirements.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Let's look what the Apostle John said here:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 Jn.3:2).​

John told these believers that they were expecting to see the Lord Jesus appear while they remained alive and they were expecting that then they would be made like Him. There is not even a hint that when the Lord Jesus returns to the earth that any living believers will be made like Him when he appears. So John's words can only be in regard to the "mystery" truth found here:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor.15:51-52).​

Quit dodging the question, Jerry.

Does Hebrews say anything about the rapture?

Does James? Peter's Epistles? John's Epistles? Jude? Revelation?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You, once again, conflate a dispensation with a period of time.

Once again you cannot understand that a dispensation covers a period of time. That is so simple but you are so uninformed about dispensational matters that you cannot even understand this simple principle.

So I will ask you, Does a dispensation cover or take place during a period of time?

Yes or no?

If your answer is "no" then give the Scriptures which you think proves that a dispensation does not take place during a period of time.

Quit dodging the question, Jerry.

Does Hebrews say anything about the rapture?

Does the epistle to the Romans say anything about the rapture?

If not then does that mean that those who received that epistle will not be raptured?

 

[Right Divider]

Once again you cannot understand that a dispensation covers a period of time.

Indeed it does... but YOU keep repeating that certain books were written AT A PERIOD IN TIME as IF that is the only thing that puts them in THIS dispensation.

That is so simple but you are so uninformed about dispensational matters that you cannot even understand this simple principle.

On this topic, you are as illogical as you are silly.

So I will ask you, Does a dispensation cover or take place during a period of time?

Yes or no?

Yes.

If your answer is "no" then give the Scriptures which you think proves that a dispensation does not take place during a period of time.

My answer was YES.

Just because a book is written AT A POINT IN TIME does NOT mean that it's CONTENTS relate to a specific dispensation BASED on that POINT IN TIME.