ECT Rightly Dividing MADs

[Tambora]

The words of the Lord Jesus about that were spoken before the Body of Christ even came into existence.

So?

So the Lord was not speaking of one group of Jewish believers belonging to the Body of Christ and another group who were not.

Right.
Neither sheepfold were of the BOC
Both of those sheepfolds were of Israel, and both had the exact same shepherd, but they were separate from each other and treated differently.

Why don't you believe that the middle wall of partition which separated the Jewish believers from the gentile believers was broken down?

Why do you continue to insist that a part of that wall still stood in the first century despite the fact that Paul said that it was broken down?

I've already shown I believe it.
For the BOC, not the kingdom.
If it were true of the kingdom, then none of the 12 would have had any problem with any ol' believer going into the holy of holies in the temple.
But that is not what we see at all.
Instead, the 12 are still teaching the law of Moses, still operating the temple per the law of Moses, and still refusing to associate with Gentile believers many years after the cross.
And Paul boldly and authoritatively rebuked them.
And Peter and the others could not deny his authority. (If they did, they would be blaspheming the Holy Spirit.)
They were still teaching that Gentiles must be circumcised to join them.
Why would they be teaching that if the Holy Spirit had revealed to them to teach the same as what Paul was teaching?
Paul and the 12 did not join forces.
Instead they separated, Paul would go to the Gentiles teaching the BOC gospel and the 12 would stay in Israel and teach Israel the kingdom gospel.
Paul did not follow after the 12 and the 12 did not follow after Paul.
They went their separate ways with their separate ministries.

Another note about the authority of Paul that the 12 recognized in Paul was that they agreed to change their target audience from what they have previously been told to go to in Mat 28:19 by the Lord.
So why would Peter agree with Paul that they should not go to all nations, but stay and teach in Israel while Paul went to Gentile nations unless Peter recognized the authority Paul had, and that there was a change in ministry occurring?

We see the ministry of the 12 fade, while we see the ministry of Paul increase.
There will come a time when Paul's ministry is no longer active, and a kingdom ministry resumes.

 

[john w]

I never said that the Lord Jesus is not God.]

Yes, you did, and now you are back peddling:

Jer., old man Mr. Blender, sower of discord amongst the brethren, who has been banned from numerous forums, including christianforums.com, for misquoting others, asserts that the Lord Jesus Christ was a man in heaven, before incarnation, and is not God-he is changing his story:

The Lord Jesus was a man in heaven before he came to earth and thus he is not God.

Why do you deny it, satanic accuser?

Why should we believe you, instead of Paul, since you deny that the Lord Jesus Christ is God?


Why should we believe in your made up theories, Christ rejector, Acts 2 Mr. Blender, re,. the rapture, when you assert that children are identical to the Saviour in "sinlessness:"

Little children have the same sinlessness as the Saviour, and are identical to him, much like the blessed virgin Mary, the mother of God.

The rapture, discussed in Thessalonians and 1 Cor. 15 ff., and the second coming, in Mt.-John, Hebrews-Revelation, describe the same event.

In regard to the other, Sir Robert Anderson explains it much better that I can but his words can only be understood by spiritual Christians so it will be way over your head sonny boy:

blah blah...

Stuff your alleged "spiritual"ness, sower of discord, and your man worshiping " Sir Robert Anderson explains/says...." as that is all you have,on TOL, spamming what others say, and posting verses, in isolation,ignoring the verses that preceded it, and after that results in your assertion that "it all says the same thing" trash, explaining your butchering of 1 John, and all the Hebrews-Revelation books.

 

[john w]

This is how sower of discord Jerry asks trap questions, and misquotes others' arguments, in deceit, on TOL:

Why don't you believe that the middle wall of partition which separated the Jewish believers from the gentile believers was broken down?

I've already shown I believe it.
For the BOC, not the kingdom.....

 

[musterion]

Shugart is a cafeteria dispensationalist. Jews have two menus [gospels] to choose from.

 

[john w]

Shugart is a cafeteria dispensationalist. Jews have two menus [gospels] to choose from.

And he peddles blenders in Meckeecoh.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I've already shown I believe it.
For the BOC, not the kingdom.

Paul said that the middle wall of partition which stood between the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers had been broken down and both groups are in the Body.

He says nothing at all which even hints that the middle wall still stood between some of the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers.

If there existed two groups of Jewish believers with one group in the Body and the other not then at some point Paul would have made that fact known. But the Scriptures will be searched for Paul or anyone else speaking of two different groups of Jewish believers.

Besides that, if you are right then "how" would a first century Jewish believer know to which group he belongs? How would he know "which" epistles are written to him?

Can you tell me how any Jew would have known to which group they belonged?

Thanks!

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Shugart is a cafeteria dispensationalist. Jews have two menus [gospels] to choose from.

musterion wants to cancel the words written at John 20:30-31 and at 1 John 5:1-5 because what is said there doesn't match his pre-conceived ideas.

I've asked him several times when those passages from the Bible were cancelled but so far all I hear are the crickets.

 

[musterion]

Paul said that the middle wall of partition which stood between the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers had been broken down and both groups are in the Body.

He says nothing at all which even hints that the middle wall still stood between some of the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers.

Was there a wall standing between those (at that time) with one gift and those with other gifts?

 

[musterion]

John 20:30-31 and at 1 John 5:1-5

aren't written to or about me.

 

[Tambora]

Paul said that the middle wall of partition which stood between the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers had been broken down and both groups are in the Body.

Not both groups, individuals from anywhere.

He says nothing at all which even hints that the middle wall still stood between some of the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers.

Right.
For Paul's ministry (BOC), not Peter's ministry (kingdom).

If there existed two groups of Jewish believers with one group in the Body and the other not then at some point Paul would have made that fact known. But the Scriptures will be searched for Paul or anyone else speaking of two different groups of Jewish believers.

Besides that, if you are right then "how" would a first century Jewish believer know to which group he belongs? How would he know "which" epistles are written to him?

Can you tell me how any Jew would have known to which group they belonged?

Thanks!

I don't think I'm getting trough to ya.
Peter did not need to switch from his ministry to Paul's ministry for salvation.
Peter was of the little flock, the remnant, the believing Jews (ie. believed Jesus was to be their returning king to take His throne in their restored kingdom).
That remnant has salvation.
And Peter continued to encourage Israel not to give up hope, because their King has promised to return and restore the kingdom .... after national Israel is punished for rejecting it's promised King.
And
GOD did not call upon Peter to join Paul's ministry.
But GOD did want them to recognize that the ministry each of them were given was per GOD, and therefore don't step on each others territory.

Peter - remnant - salvation.
Paul - BOC - salvation.

No need for anyone to switch.

Now, you may want to ask ..... is the remnant ministry continuing to today?
No.
I believe their ministry ended with that generation of remnant believers.
I'm not dogmatic about it being that generation, but with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple being gone, there couldn't really be any semblance of a restored kingdom being at hand anymore.

I hope the gist of what I am saying is getting clearer.
But if not, we can keep talking!
Thanks.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Not both groups, individuals from anywhere.

The groups are made up of individuals.

Right.
For Paul's ministry (BOC), not Peter's ministry (kingdom).

Paul makes no distinction when he speaks about the middle wall of patition which has been broken down between the believing Jews and the believing Gentiles. Why can you not see that?

Here are Paul's words again and he only speaks of one group of individual Jewish believers and one group of individual Gentile believers:

"For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.3:16).

There is nothing here that even hints that there is another group of individual Jewish believers who were not reconciled unto God in one Body. If there was another group then somewhere in the Bible something would be said about that but there is not even one place that speaks of a group Jewish believers who are not in the Body of Christ after the Body came into existence.

Peter did not need to switch from his ministry to Paul's ministry for salvation.

No one said that Peter had to switch from his ministry to Paul's ministry for salvation. Of course he didn't because he was already saved before Paul was even converted. But Jewish believers were indeed being baptized into the Body of Christ in the first century but you think that only some of them were. But you have not yet explained a reason why you think some were not baptized into the Body while others were.

You have not told us why anyone should believe that the middle wall of partition still stood between some of the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers despite the fact that Paul gave no hint that is true.

Peter - remnant - salvation.
Paul - BOC - salvation.

What about the Jewish believers who were baptized into the Body? Were they not a remnant also? Of course they were so according to you there were two remnants but Paul only speaks of one. I will ask you the following again in the hope that you will answer me:

If there existed two groups of Jewish believers with one group in the Body and the other not then at some point Paul would have made that fact known. But the Scriptures will be searched for Paul or anyone else speaking of two different groups of Jewish believers.

Besides that, if you are right then "how" would a first century Jewish believer know which of the two appearances of the Lord would be for him?:

"When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory" (Col.3:4).​

"And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away"​

(1 Pet.5:4).​

Of course the two verses are speaking of the same appearance because both of these appearances are described as being imminent. And since only those in the Body will be caught up at that appearance then we know that those who received the Hebrew epistles were members of the Body of Christ.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

aren't written to or about me.

What about the epistles to Timothy and Titus?

Written to you?

Was there a wall standing between those (at that time) with one gift and those with other gifts?

A wall with gifts? What are you taking about?

 

[musterion]

What about the epistles to Timothy and Titus?

Written to you?

Spoken like, at best, an Acts 2 if not an anti-dispensationalist.

You've revealed yourself for what you really are. You are not mid-Acts. You had people fooled for a long time but no more.

A wall with gifts? What are you taking about?

Was building an analogy but you're too far gone and too dense to bother with.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You've revealed yourself for what you really are. You are not mid-Acts. You had people fooled for a long time but no more.

You are a joke because my views mirror those of both Sir Robert Anderson and J.C. O'Hair. Perhaps you want to argue that neither of those men were Mid-Acts?

It is you who is not Mid-Acts because your teaching matches that of the Acts 28 camp.

Once again I will give the Scriptures which demonstate that the present dispensation began during the Mid-Acts period. Here are three quotes from the pen of Paul where he speaks of a "dispensation" that has been committed or given to him:

"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me toward you" (Eph. 3:2).​

"Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God" (Col.1:25).​

"...a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me" (1 Cor.9:17).​

The "dispensation" which was committed to Paul is in regard to "God's grace", a "ministry", and a "gospel." Here Paul sums up his dispensational responsibility:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20: 24).​

There can be no doubt whatsoever that the event which marks the beginning of the "dispensation of grace" is the preaching of the "gospel of grace."

I believe that happened at Acts 13.

Now I will wait for your evidence which you think indicates that the present dispensation began at Acts 28.

 

[Tambora]

The groups are made up of individuals.

But it is not the whole groups that get in.
Not all Jews are in the BOC and not all Gentiles are in the BOC.

Peter is of the kingdom, not the BOC.
The hope of the kingdom being near at hand was squashed when national Israel rejected their king.
We see a diminishing of Peter's ministry.
Healings diminished, raising the dead diminished, etc.

If the new covenant was in full swing, these things would not have diminished.
The miracles and even Petecost were a sampling of what would occur in the new covenant.
As my hubby said to me earlier ...... If you think Pentecost was amazing, wait till the new covenant is in full swing!
Jer 31 is just one place that tells of what will occur during the new covenant.
And as we have seen, those things waxed and faded with Peter's ministry instead of staying constant as they will be in the new covenant restored kingdom.

They got a taste of the firstfruits, but the harvest comes when their King returns for the restored kingdom.

At the moment, the ministry of the new covenant and restored kingdom being at hand are now on hold, but will certainly be completely fulfilled after their (national Israel) punishment.
The kingdom saints will have to endure the tribulation, just as all Israel had to endure the Babylonian captivity whether they were all believers or not (they suffered together as a nation, not as believers).

The BOC is absent during their tribulation.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

But it is not the whole groups that get in.
Not all Jews are in the BOC and not all Gentiles are in the BOC.

I said that all the believing Jews were in the Body of Christ. I never said that all Jews are in the Body.

Peter is of the kingdom, not the BOC.

So were the other Jewish believers until the kingdom was postponed and then they were baptized into the Body of Christ. But according to you only some of those Jewish believers were in the Body despite the fact that Paul said that the middle wall of partition was broken down which previously separated the Jewish believers from the Gentile believers.

The hope of the kingdom being near at hand was squashed when national Israel rejected their king.
We see a diminishing of Peter's ministry.
Healings diminished, raising the dead diminished, etc.

Why should anyone believe that those who received the Hebrew epistles were "kingdom" saints since the kingdom will not even be on the earth until the Lord Jesus returns? Here Paul speaks of those who are said to be in the Body of Christ;

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Ro.12:5).​

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Cor.5:17).​

Paul says that if "any man" be in Christ he is a new creature. And Peter makes it plain that the those who received the Hebrew epistles were "in Christ":

"having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed" (1 Pet.3:16).​

If any man be in Christ he is a member of the Body of Christ.

 

[DAN P]

But it is not the whole groups that get in.
Not all Jews are in the BOC and not all Gentiles are in the BOC.

Peter is of the kingdom, not the BOC.
The hope of the kingdom being near at hand was squashed when national Israel rejected their king.
We see a diminishing of Peter's ministry.
Healings diminished, raising the dead diminished, etc.

If the new covenant was in full swing, these things would not have diminished.
The miracles and even Petecost were a sampling of what would occur in the new covenant.
As my hubby said to me earlier ...... If you think Pentecost was amazing, wait till the new covenant is in full swing!
Jer 31 is just one place that tells of what will occur during the new covenant.
And as we have seen, those things waxed and faded with Peter's ministry instead of staying constant as they will be in the new covenant restored kingdom.

They got a taste of the firstfruits, but the harvest comes when their King returns for the restored kingdom.

At the moment, the ministry of the new covenant and restored kingdom being at hand are now on hold, but will certainly be completely fulfilled after their (national Israel) punishment.
The kingdom saints will have to endure the tribulation, just as all Israel had to endure the Babylonian captivity whether they were all believers or not (they suffered together as a nation, not as believers).

The BOC is absent during their tribulation.

Hi and what many FAIL to see is that ALL ISRAEL will be saved , Rom 11:26 , not Just INDIVIDUAL Jews , like that can happen to day , 2 Cor 3:16 is the ONLY way that Jews can be saved in this AGE !!

dan p

 

[Tambora]

Hi and what many FAIL to see is that ALL ISRAEL will be saved , Rom 11:26 , not Just INDIVIDUAL Jews , like that can happen to day , 2 Cor 3:16 is the ONLY way that Jews can be saved in this AGE !!

dan p

I don't think Jerry denies it is the only way today.
I think he just questions the folks during the time which both Peter and Paul lived.
Maybe.
It's hard to figure sometimes.
It boils down to ..... when did Peter's gospel of the kingdom become ineffective and only Paul's gospel saved?
It's hard to pinpoint when there is a transition period going on with the miraculous signs fading.

There are many good sounding opinions of exactly when that happened.

I lean toward the opinion that it could not have been later than the point when Peter's group agreed to go to Israel only, and Paul to the nations.
That's a pretty fair indication that the ministry of the kingdom was NO LONGER considered a light to the Gentiles.
But that's just my personal opinion on the matter and I do not berate the other opinions on the matter.
I just tell why I lean toward the opinion I do.

 

[DAN P]

I don't think Jerry denies it is the only way today.
I think he just questions the folks during the time which both Peter and Paul lived.
Maybe.
It's hard to figure sometimes.
It boils down to ..... when did Peter's gospel of the kingdom become ineffective and only Paul's gospel saved?
It's hard to pinpoint when there is a transition period going on with the miraculous signs fading.

There are many good sounding opinions of exactly when that happened.

I lean toward the opinion that it could not have been later than the point when Peter's group agreed to go to Israel only, and Paul to the nations.
That's a pretty fair indication that the ministry of the kingdom was NO LONGER considered a light to the Gentiles.
But that's just my personal opinion on the matter and I do not berate the other opinions on the matter.
I just tell why I lean toward the opinion I do.

Hi and it will depend when you believe Galatians was written and try to use Gal 1:6 as there proof or will say that the B O C BEGAN , when Paul wrote his first epistle , just a dishonest way , when they do not know !!

dan p

 

[john w]

You are a joke because my views mirror those of both Sir Robert Anderson and J.C. O'Hair. Perhaps you want to argue that neither of those men were Mid-Acts?

That is this man worshiper's MO, on TOL, testifying that he is a deceitful fraud, as he asserts that everyone, in the "dispensational camp," is a joke, is "silly," is "ridiculous," in a "cult," as everyone else, except himsel, "cuz" he reads/posts/"mirrors" what others believe, and we only have a "theory," because we disagree with what his idols say, witness his avatar, and that settles it, "it is clear...obviously, you are wrong." as he is a biblical impotent, not being able to "connect the dots" on his own, posting verses in isolation, ignoring/deleting the verses preceding/following the isolate verses, that he spams, and then goes into his cliche mode, sound byte spam, and falls back on, "Well, sir....says...The Greek Lexicon says...There is no doubt whatsoever that, so you are wrong, and you have no answer, are running and hiding, and are attacking/assassinating me....................." spam.