RELIGION: A Diversion Away From Christ and His Gospel

[marhig]

marhig.

If you need rules, laws and religious instructions to live by, then it is apparent that you don't have the Holy Spirit, who is the Christians teacher and guide, John 16:13.

What you appear to have is religion. Being religious does not mean that you are a Christian.

In reading your post there is little to no reference to scripture and little to nothing about Christ. You seem to think that it is all about you and your attainment. This is very common with people that are religious. Its not your attainment that matters. What matters is Christ atonement. Has Jesus atoned for your sins? If he has then why are you so concerned about them?

Many of the apostles did not understand Paul's Gospel and justification by faith. Paul had to teach them the Gospel. The book of James was one of the first books of the Bible. James did not understand the Gospel, nor did Peter and John. I am sure that they learned it from Paul at a later date.

You would do well to learn what Christ accomplished in your name and on your behalf so that you can enter into his rest, Hebrews 4:10. As long as you believe that salvation is about you and what you have accomplished, you will continue to be religious.

I think I've written plenty about Christ in my post, without Jesus Christ I'd still be dead in my sins. Without him I wouldn't know the way, the truth or the life. It says in the Bible that Jesus was the perfect example for us to follow, it says we are to be doers of the word and not hearers only, and that we are to partake in Christ's sufferings and we are to walk the walk. Where you get that we don't have to do anything at all is beyond me. Because Jesus, his apostles and his deciples teach the total opposite! I couldn't accomplish anything without God and Christ. Because without them i couldn't overcome and I'd be tossed every which way by Satan and I'd be living my fleshly life to the max.

Also, judging by the verses below, the James, Peter and John will have known the gospel completely, not only were they taught by Jesus in his lifetime. But they received the holy spirit who taught them all things. Jesus clearly says that the holy spirit will bring all things to their rememberance whatsoever he said to them, and he also says the the holy spirit will guide them into all truth. So I do believe that they truly knew the gospel. You can see they were full of the spirit in what they've written.

By the way, there's no such thing Paul's gospel, there is only one gospel, the gospel of Jesus Christ and Paul preached it!

Below are verses that show that the apostles will have known what they were talking about because once they were filled with the power of the holy spirit, they would have been taught everything they needed to know by Christ through revelation, just like Paul was!

John 14

But the Comforter,*which is*the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you

John 15

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

John 16

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

 

[Robert Pate]

Bard.

John should have said, "We have no sin because we are perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

If you are concerned about sin then you don't believe the Gospel and are more than likely still in your sins.

The Bible does not say a lot of things, however some things are implied. Here is one of them, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10. Have you not noticed the absence of God in the world? Why is that? Here is the answer, God does not fellowship with sinners, no, not even Christian sinners. We are given only the first fruits or the down payment of the Holy Spirit, Romans 8:23. just enough to help us believe. Most of the time you are on your own.

You want to glory in your Christian existence, there is nothing to glory about. Paul confessed that he was "The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15. And then in Romans 7:15-25 he tells us about his struggle with sin. No Paul did not glory in his Christian existence and neither should we.

We are all sinners saved by grace. salvation cost us nothing, but it cost God's Son everything. We are bought with a price.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Bard.

John should have said, "We have no sin because we are perfect and complete "In Christ" Colossians 2:10.

Hold on a second, Robert. Your response to Saint John's words that he wrote in 1 John, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit mind you, are that John "should have said" something different?

Seriously?

Remember, it was the Holy Spirit who inspired the writing of the Scriptures. So you are really saying that the Holy Spirit "should have said" something different.

That isn't gonna fly with anybody but yourself. That's the Gospel according to Robert. Since when does anybody have the authority to say what one of the author's of Scripture "should have said"?

Most Christians like to deal with what the Scripture writers actually did say. Not what we think they "should have said". I don't think it is an acceptable practice to take parts of Scripture and then ignore them under the rubric of "it should have said something else."

That sounds dangerous.

Besides, it is hard enough sometimes for Christians to agree on the meaning of what was actually written down even when we agree on what was written.

If you are concerned about sin then you don't believe the Gospel and are more than likely still in your sins.

That is just the Gospel according to Robert again, I'm afraid. The Bible doesn't say that.

The Bible does not say a lot of things, however some things are implied.

I agree.

Here is one of them, "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one" Romans 3:10. Have you not noticed the absence of God in the world? Why is that? Here is the answer, God does not fellowship with sinners, no, not even Christian sinners. We are given only the first fruits or the down payment of the Holy Spirit, Romans 8:23. just enough to help us believe. Most of the time you are on your own.

What?!? Most of the time Christians are on their own? I most vehemently disagree. God is with us.

You want to glory in your Christian existence, there is nothing to glory about.

Do not. You are just making things up now.

Paul confessed that he was "The Chief of Sinners" 1 Timothy 1:15. And then in Romans 7:15-25 he tells us about his struggle with sin. No Paul did not glory in his Christian existence and neither should we.

But look at what you just said. You just acknowledged that Paul is concerned about his struggle with sin. Even though you earlier said we don't need to be concerned with sin.

We are all sinners saved by grace. salvation cost us nothing, but it cost God's Son everything. We are bought with a price.

Agreed. Yea. We agree again.

Peace.

 

[jamie]

"But I certify you brethren, that the Gospel which was preached of me is NOT AFTER MAN. For I neither received it of man, NEITHER WAS I TAUGHT IT, but by the REVELATION of Jesus Christ" Galatians 1:11, 12.

The other apostles were previously taught by the revelation of Jesus Christ. (Luke 24:45)

 

[jamie]

But somebody can teach me, right? I mean, Scripture records that there will be teachers and Jesus told the apostles to go out and "teach". You didn't really comment on how those verses can be harmonized with your idea that it is only the Holy Spirit who teaches.

The Holy Spirit only works through men or in one case through a dove. It is not recorded that anyone has ever seen the Holy Spirit.

 

[Robert Pate]

The Christian has two existences or two natures. He is a sinner and a saint at the same time.

Physically, he is still here on the earth in his Adamic body that is sinful. "For the good that he would do, He doesn't do it: but the evil which he would not, that is what he does" Romans 7:19.

Spiritually, he is perfect and complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10.

The only thing that he can do to overcome his Adamic nature is to walk in the Spirit. To walk in the Spirit is to walk in the Gospel. In the Gospel he has been crucified with Christ, his old sinful nature has been destroyed in the crucifixion of Christ, Romans 6:6. He lives believing that. In the Gospel he is a new creation in Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:17. He lives believing that. In the Gospel he sits in heavenly places in Jesus Christ, Ephesians 2:6. He lives believing that.

There is a struggle between his old Adamic nature and his new nature in Christ that goes on in his life until he dies.

 

[Robert Pate]

The other apostles were previously taught by the revelation of Jesus Christ. (Luke 24:45)

No one knew what the Gospel was or what Christ had accomplished until the day of Pentecost, Acts chapter 2.

 

[Robert Pate]

Bard.



Hold on a second, Robert. Your response to Saint John's words that he wrote in 1 John, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit mind you, are that John "should have said" something different?

Seriously?

Remember, it was the Holy Spirit who inspired the writing of the Scriptures. So you are really saying that the Holy Spirit "should have said" something different.

That isn't gonna fly with anybody but yourself. That's the Gospel according to Robert. Since when does anybody have the authority to say what one of the author's of Scripture "should have said"?

Most Christians like to deal with what the Scripture writers actually did say. Not what we think they "should have said". I don't think it is an acceptable practice to take parts of Scripture and then ignore them under the rubric of "it should have said something else."

That sounds dangerous.

Besides, it is hard enough sometimes for Christians to agree on the meaning of what was actually written down even when we agree on what was written.



That is just the Gospel according to Robert again, I'm afraid. The Bible doesn't say that.



I agree.



What?!? Most of the time Christians are on their own? I most vehemently disagree. God is with us.



Do not. You are just making things up now.



But look at what you just said. You just acknowledged that Paul is concerned about his struggle with sin. Even though you earlier said we don't need to be concerned with sin.



Agreed. Yea. We agree again.

Peace.

The Bible does not hide the sins and the mistakes of God's people.

James sent men to spy on Peter to see if he was eating with Gentiles, Galatians 2:12, which was a violation of the Jewish law. James was still living under the Old Covenant and the Jewish law and religion.

Peter was under conviction because he was eating with Gentiles. When the Judaizers walked in, Peter and Barnabas went under the table. Paul gave them a verbal tongue lashing.

The two examples above show that the apostles had problems. They had problems believing Paul's Gospel and justification by faith. The apostle John also had a problem.

 

[marhig]

The Christian has two existences or two natures. He is a sinner and a saint at the same time.

Physically, he is still here on the earth in his Adamic body that is sinful. "For the good that he would do, He doesn't do it: but the evil which he would not, that is what he does" Romans 7:19.

Spiritually, he is perfect and complete in Christ, Colossians 2:10.

The only thing that he can do to overcome his Adamic nature is to walk in the Spirit. To walk in the Spirit is to walk in the Gospel. In the Gospel he has been crucified with Christ, his old sinful nature has been destroyed in the crucifixion of Christ, Romans 6:6. He lives believing that. In the Gospel he is a new creation in Jesus Christ, 2 Corinthians 5:17. He lives believing that. In the Gospel he sits in heavenly places in Jesus Christ, Ephesians 2:6. He lives believing that.

There is a struggle between his old Adamic nature and his new nature in Christ that goes on in his life until he dies.

Do you believe that you have to deny yourself and turn from sin?

 

[Robert Pate]

Do you believe that you have to deny yourself and turn from sin?

What sin? Spiritually, I am perfect and complete "In Christ", Colossians 2:10.

Physically, "For the good that I would do, I don't do it: but the evil which I would not, that I do" Romans 7:19.

I prefer to concentrate on the spiritual and ignore the physical. Its called walking in the Spirit.

 

[marhig]

What sin? Spiritually, I am perfect and complete "In Christ", Colossians 2:10.

Physically, "For the good that I would do, I don't do it: but the evil which I would not, that I do" Romans 7:19.

I prefer to concentrate on the spiritual and ignore the physical. Its called walking in the Spirit.

You say, what sin? The sin that Jesus told us that we are to deny within ourselves and take up our cross and follow him.

If you are truly walking in the spirit, then you will be turning from sin!

Galatians 5

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Romans 6

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

1 Corinthians 15

Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak*this*to your shame.

Hebrews 10

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins

Colossians 3

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:*For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:*In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.*But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.*Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;*And have put on the new*man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him

Romans 6

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

James 4

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Also in James 4

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Romans 8

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

1 John 2

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever

1 Peter 4

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin

We are to turn from wilfully sinning and obey God. And if we do sin and then realise later, we are to quickly repent and ask for forgiveness and we are to turn from that sin. God is very forgiving, but he's not a fool and we can't think that Jesus has done it all, and that we can carry on sinning no problem and just waltz into heaven. The Bible teaches the opposite, and teaches that we are to turn from sin. God wants our hearts cleansed, if our heart is dirty and we are living by the will of our flesh, then Christ can't be seen in us or through us. God wants us to deny ourselves so that he can dwell in our hearts and Christ will be seen in our lives.

 

[musterion]

take up our cross and follow him.

Doesn't apply to someone who has already been crucified with Him, declared legally dead by God, and raised to new life in Christ.

 

[Robert Pate]

You say, what sin? The sin that Jesus told us that we are to deny within ourselves and take up our cross and follow him.

If you are truly walking in the spirit, then you will be turning from sin!

Galatians 5

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Romans 6

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

1 Corinthians 15

Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak*this*to your shame.

Hebrews 10

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins

Colossians 3

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:*For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:*In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.*But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.*Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;*And have put on the new*man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him

Romans 6

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

James 4

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Also in James 4

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Romans 8

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

1 John 2

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever

1 Peter 4

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin

We are to turn from wilfully sinning and obey God. And if we do sin and then realise later, we are to quickly repent and ask for forgiveness and we are to turn from that sin. God is very forgiving, but he's not a fool and we can't think that Jesus has done it all, and that we can carry on sinning no problem and just waltz into heaven. The Bible teaches the opposite, and teaches that we are to turn from sin. God wants our hearts cleansed, if our heart is dirty and we are living by the will of our flesh, then Christ can't be seen in us or through us. God wants us to deny ourselves so that he can dwell in our hearts and Christ will be seen in our lives.

It appears that you are in the sin fight. Very typical of religious people. The more you fight against sin the more you will sin.

Listen to what Paul says, "But sin taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. FOR WITHOUT THE LAW SIN WAS DEAD. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, SIN REVIVED AND I DIED. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I FOUND TO BE UNTO DEATH" Romans 7:8-10.

What Paul is saying here is that the law made him sin.

The more that we are told not to do something, the more we will do it. The law and the commandments will not help you overcome sin. What it will do is make you sin more.

The only thing that will help you to sin less is to be free from the law. It is only when we have the freedom to sin that we will stop sinning.

Living in the freedom of the Gospel, which is living in the Spirit, is the only way to overcome sin.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Doesn't apply to someone who has already been crucified with Him, declared legally dead by God, and raised to new life in Christ.

Hey musterion,

I'm just curious about something. I'm familiar with a few places that marhig was referencing, like these:

Luke 9:23: "Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me." (NKJV)

Mark 10:17-21: "Good teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?.... and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.” (NKJV)

Matthew 16:24: "Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." (NKJV)

But I am not familiar with anywhere that the Scriptures say that that only applies to certain people and not to others as you have suggested.

Could you please let me know where that is?

Thanks.

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

It appears that you are in the sin fight. Very typical of religious people. The more you fight against sin the more you will sin.

Robert, you ignored St. John's words in 1 John 1:8-10 by saying "he should have said something else."

St. John must've been a very religious person according to your definition.

Listen to what Paul says, "But sin taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. FOR WITHOUT THE LAW SIN WAS DEAD. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, SIN REVIVED AND I DIED. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I FOUND TO BE UNTO DEATH" Romans 7:8-10.

What Paul is saying here is that the law made him sin.

I disagree. He isn't saying that the law made him sin. He is saying that the law made him conscious of his sin. The law wasn't given to make men sin but so that men would be aware of what sin is.

The more that we are told not to do something, the more we will do it. The law and the commandments will not help you overcome sin. What it will do is make you sin more.

Well, maybe true in some cases but untrue in others. But I would agree that there is temptation to sin by knowing the law and the commandments because then there is an awareness of what would break that law and commandments.

The only thing that will help you to sin less is to be free from the law. It is only when we have the freedom to sin that we will stop sinning.

Freedom to sin? We have the freedom to sin? Please look at 1 John 1:8-10 again.

Also, remember, Jesus didn't tell the woman caught in adultery "Go. You have the freedom to sin."

He said,"Go, and sin no more."

Living in the freedom of the Gospel, which is living in the Spirit, is the only way to overcome sin.

And we agree on this!

Peace.

 

[musterion]

Hey musterion,

I'm just curious about something. I'm familiar with a few places that marhig was referencing, like these:

Luke 9:23: "Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me." (NKJV)

Mark 10:17-21: "Good teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?.... and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.” (NKJV)

Matthew 16:24: "Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." (NKJV)

But I am not familiar with anywhere that the Scriptures say that that only applies to certain people and not to others as you have suggested.

Could you please let me know where that is?

Thanks.

Peace.

Will be glad to try, but first, can you please tell us what is the saving Good News?

 

[jamie]

The law wasn't given to make men sin but so that men would be aware of what sin is.

Exactly, the law was to hold violators accountable just like today in man's law.

More people sinned without the law than sinned under the law.

The Being who led the people of Israel out of Egypt is the same one who gave the law.

 

[marhig]

Doesn't apply to someone who has already been crucified with Him, declared legally dead by God, and raised to new life in Christ.

It applies more to those that know God, how can those who don't know God be judged? Jesus said, because you say you see, your sin remains. Once we know God, and repent, then our past sins are forgiven. But then we turn away from sin and we are then judged, whether we do good or bad and we will all stand before the judgement seat of Christ.

2 Corinthians 5

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

The apostles taught that we are to turn from sin after Jesus had been crucified. Being crucified with Christ means we are going through the sufferings with him and we have stopped following the lusts of the flesh and they are being put to death by the spirit

Galatians 5

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts

How can we show the fruits of the spirit of we are still living by the will of the flesh and not denying ourselves?

And why did the apostles teach that we need to turn from sin and that we need to live right before God if we don't need to? All of what I posted was taught after the death of Jesus, some if it many years after through Paul. And I do believe that it's for those who belong to Christ, if we walk in the spirit, then we will be turning from sin.

Sin/fleshly lusts and God don't mix, we can't serve both, it's one or the other.

 

[marhig]

Listen to what Paul says, "But sin taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. FOR WITHOUT THE LAW SIN WAS DEAD. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, SIN REVIVED AND I DIED. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I FOUND TO BE UNTO DEATH" Romans 7:8-10.

The death Paul is talking about here is death to self, firstly, the law showed Paul his sins, and when he saw his sins, he had to die, his flesh had to be put to death. Just like when he said that he died daily. He was dying to the flesh everyday but alive in the spirit.

Living in the spirit is the only way to overcome sins, because without the spirit we would be dead in our sins but we still have to follow the commandments of God and obey him the spirit should be teaching us to turn from sin every day.

Hebrews 10

This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


I find it hard to understand how anyone can believe that we just carry on as we were, sinning and living our lives to please ourselves in the flesh and think we are doing the will of God. Jesus said, not my will but thy will be done, and we should be following his example denying our flesh to do the will of God. And what does it mean for us to become a living sacrifice? What happens to a sacrifice? How can we become a temple of God made without hands if we carry on living in the flesh and wilfully sinning? And how can we bring Christ to others if were still living by the lusts of the flesh? People won't see Christ, just our sins, because our worm won't die.

 

[marhig]

Hey musterion,

I'm just curious about something. I'm familiar with a few places that marhig was referencing, like these:

Luke 9:23: "Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me." (NKJV)

Mark 10:17-21: "Good teacher, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?.... and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.” (NKJV)

Matthew 16:24: "Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me." (NKJV)

But I am not familiar with anywhere that the Scriptures say that that only applies to certain people and not to others as you have suggested.

Could you please let me know where that is?

Thanks.

Peace.

Great

Also there's this in Matthew 10

And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

So we're not worthy of Christ if we don't take up our cross and follow him.