RELIGION: A Diversion Away From Christ and His Gospel

[musterion]

Hard to be unworthy of Christ when one has been accepted in the Beloved and made a member of Him.

Can't have both. Either one or the other is true for believers.

 

[musterion]

No one knew what the Gospel was or what Christ had accomplished until the day of Pentecost, Acts chapter 2.

Peter did not preach the DBR of Christ for the forgiveness and justification of Jew and Gentile alike and without distinction. Peter indicted Israel with the murder of their Messiah and called them to repent.

Peter did not know at Pentecost what you say he knew.

 

[Robert Pate]

Peter did not preach the DBR of Christ for the forgiveness and justification of Jew and Gentile alike and without distinction. Peter indicted Israel with the murder of their Messiah and called them to repent.

Peter did not know at Pentecost what you say he knew.

I agree. Peter's Gospel was not the indepth Gospel that Paul received. However, there was enough in what Peter said that caused 8,000 Jews to repent and turn to Christ, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4.

 

[musterion]

I agree. Peter's Gospel was not the indepth Gospel that Paul received. However, there was enough in what Peter said that caused 8,000 Jews to repent and turn to Christ, Acts 2:41 also Acts 4:4.

Yes, they turned to Him as Israel's long-awaited Messiah according to the prophesied line of flesh (Acts 2:30-31, Rom 1:3), just as Peter preached Him.

But Peter did not - could not - preach Him, nor could they know Him as we can today, according to the revelation of the mystery, as Paul later was given to preach Him (Rom 16:25, Eph 3:8-9).

Two different aspects of Christ, two different Good News, two different audiences, same overarching Kingdom of God.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Will be glad to try, but first, can you please tell us what is the saving Good News?

Umm. Ok. It seems a bit of a curve ball since you have claimed that Jesus' words to take up our crosses and follow Him are not meant for all people. But I haven't said anything about the Good News (that I remember, anyways.)

But perhaps you are planning on tying the saving Good News into your answer about who does and does not have to take up their cross and follow Him. So I will try to answer your question.

I would say that the saving Good News is the message that the King has come. He is Jesus Christ. And He died and rose from the dead so that we may be saved.

Now your turn.

How do we know that Jesus' words about "taking up crosses" are meant for some people and not for others? I am curious about that.

Peace.

 

[Robert Pate]

Yes, they turned to Him as Israel's long-awaited Messiah according to the prophesied line of flesh (Acts 2:30-31, Rom 1:3), just as Peter preached Him.

But Peter did not - could not - preach Him, nor could they know Him as we can today, according to the revelation of the mystery, as Paul later was given to preach Him (Rom 16:25, Eph 3:8-9).

Two different aspects of Christ, two different Good News, two different audiences, same overarching Kingdom of God.

Regardless of what Peter preached it was accompanied by the Holy Spirit and caused thousands to repent and turn to Christ, Acts 2:41, Acts 4:4.

There is only one Gospel. Peter may not have preached all that he should of, but it was enough to cause the birth of the New Testament church. God honored Peter's message with signs and miracles. If Peter's message was not correct God would not have honored it. The main thing that Peter said was that "God had made Jesus both Lord and Christ" Acts 2:36.

 

[musterion]

Regardless of what Peter preached it was accompanied by the Holy Spirit and caused thousands to repent and turn to Christ, Acts 2:41, Acts 4:4.

True, no argument.

There is only one Gospel.

Then please find one person in the OT who was saved upon hearing and believing the exact doctrinal content of 1Cor 15:3-4, which was Paul's gospel. If there is only one in the whole Bible, you MUST be able to find that content being preached and believed before Paul was ever saved.

Peter may not have preached all that he should of, but it was enough to cause the birth of the New Testament church.

What do you mean should have preached? Did he forget, was he negligent? With the Holy Spirit upon him? Really?

God honored Peter's message with signs and miracles. If Peter's message was not correct God would not have honored it.

No MAD thinks what Peter preached at Pentecost was in ANY way incorrect for where, when, and to whom he preached it.

The main thing that Peter said was that "God had made Jesus both Lord and Christ" Acts 2:36.

Yep, exactly according to prophecy. No argument there.

Now explain Rom16:25 and Eph 3:8-9.

 

[musterion]

Umm. Ok. It seems a bit of a curve ball since you have claimed that Jesus' words to take up our crosses and follow Him are not meant for all people. But I haven't said anything about the Good News (that I remember, anyways.)

But perhaps you are planning on tying the saving Good News into your answer about who does and does not have to take up their cross and follow Him. So I will try to answer your question.

I would say that the saving Good News is the message that the King has come. It is Jesus Christ. And He died and rose from the dead so that we may be saved.

Now your turn.

How do we know that Jesus' words about "taking up crosses" are meant for some people and not for others? I am curious about that.

Peace.

The cross means death.

Someone who was crucified with Him, dies with Him, was buried with Him and raised with Him to new life no longer has a cross to take up, nor needs one any more than He does.

You seem hung up on the "is not worthy of Me" part, as many are. I once was. But Christ's later revelation through Paul tells us that the believer is ACCEPTED IN CHRIST. That moots your concern, or should.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Hard to be unworthy of Christ when one has been accepted in the Beloved and made a member of Him.

Hey Musterion,

Does Scripture say that somewhere?

Jesus explicitly says in Matthew 10:38: "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me."

You said it is hard to be unworthy of Christ. I don't think the Bible says that anywhere.

Jesus said we are unworthy of Him if we refuse to take up our cross and follow Him. Doesn't seem to be that hard to be unworthy of Him. Just refuse our cross. Just refuse the cost of discipleship to Him.

What Jesus is saying is that being His disciple is going to be demanding of us. Including self-denial, suffering, and maybe death. That is what the image of the cross portrays.

I'm still waiting to see where you find Scripture telling us that He meant that for only some people and not others? Or some of His followers and not others? I am not seeing where He says that that is what He means.

Can't have both. Either one or the other is true for believers.

I don't think your logic makes sense here.

If Believers are those who have been accepted and made a member of Him,

But His words about the cross cannot apply to them. (You said it is either/or)

Then Jesus' words about carrying the cross would be directed specifically at non-believers only.

A couple of problems with that, I think.

First, everyone is a non-believer at some point. So His words would apply to everyone... since nobody emerges from the womb a believer.

Second, Chapter 10 of Matthew is directed right at the 12 Apostles...not unbelievers. Matthew 10:1 :"And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him,..." Jesus is speaking directly to the 12 for the entire chapter. He is not speaking to unbelievers.

Third, what are non-believers choices if what you say is true? They can either:

a. take up their cross and follow Him to be made worthy of Him. Like He says. OR

b. they can be accepted in the Beloved and be made a member of Him. Then His words about the cross do not apply to them.

Well. I'll choose b. I think everyone would choose b. It just sounds easier and like a much better deal. But that means that:

Jesus' words about taking up our crosses applies to NOBODY. Why is He wasting His time teaching people things that apply to NOBODY?

Fourth problem, your logic that it can't be both. Either one or the other is true for believers. Well, that is your logic. The bible nowhere says that either one or the other is true for believers.

And I think that that logic makes a mess of Jesus' own words.

He tells us pretty straightforwardly in that passage that to be worthy of Him is to embrace a cross.

To say that we can be worthy of Him....but "No thanks on the cross part, Jesus."....that contradicts what He himself says.

For now I am going to assume that your logic above is the reason you said the cross only applies to some people.

Or is there a Scripture reference that says that somewhere?

Peace.

 

[jamie]

But Christ's later revelation through Paul tells us that the believer is ACCEPTED IN CHRIST.

Peter said the same thing.

Acts 10:34-35: "Then Peter opened his mouth and said: 'In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.'"

 

[musterion]

Hey Musterion,

Does Scripture say that somewhere?

Does your Bible include Paul's epistles?

 

[musterion]

Peter said the same thing.

Acts 10:34-35: "Then Peter opened his mouth and said: 'In truth I perceive that God shows no partiality. But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him.'"

At the time, he only knew WHAT happened but couldn't explain why it happened. He hadn't even gotten to the point of his sermon when it happened.

 

[jamie]

At the time, he only knew WHAT happened but couldn't explain why it happened. He hadn't even gotten to the point of his sermon when it happened.

Obviously not necessary.

Acts 10:47: "Can anyone forbid water that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Peter did not preach the DBR of Christ for the forgiveness and justification of Jew and Gentile alike and without distinction. Peter indicted Israel with the murder of their Messiah and called them to repent.

Peter did not know at Pentecost what you say he knew.

I agree with what Robert said about Acts 2. Peter taught the death, burial, and Resurrection of Jesus for salvation.

I agree with you that Gentiles were not included in Acts 2. That came later.

If we read Acts 2 in its entirety Peter proclaims:

1. The death of Jesus (verse 23: "you have crucified and put to death")

2. The burial of Jesus (verses 27,29,31: "Nor will you allow your Holy One to see corruption", "David...is dead and buried...", "concerning the Christ...nor did His flesh see corruption..."

That is referencing a burial and bodily decomposition in the grave.

3. The resurrection of Jesus (verses 24,31,32: "whom God raised up", "concerning the Resurrection of the Christ", "This Jesus God has raised up."

4. That the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus saves. (verses 38-40: "Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.”

So what do they get for believing the words of Peter? Well, they repent and get: remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Spirit and saved.

Further evidence that Peter is referring to being saved when he exhorts them to be baptized is seen when he writes in 1 Peter 3:21: "There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,.."

So Peter shows that the death, burial, and Resurrection of Jesus saves.

I agree with you the that Gentiles weren't a part of that yet because Peter didn't receive that vision about them from God until Acts 10, I think.

Peace.

 

[musterion]

So Peter shows that the death, burial, and Resurrection of Jesus saves.

Not at Pentecost he didn't.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

The cross means death.

Agreed. And probably could mean suffering as well.

Someone who was crucified with Him, dies with Him, was buried with Him and raised with Him to new life no longer has a cross to take up, nor needs one any more than He does.

With all due respect to you, I don't find your above statement to be Scriptural.

Jesus told us that whoever wishes to be His disciple must take up their cross and follow Him.

Nobody in the bible, Jesus or Paul, or anyone else tells us what you are claiming. As a matter of fact, Jesus tells us that to be His follower is to expect suffering. It's all there in Matthew 10.

You seem hung up on the "is not worthy of Me" part, as many are. I once was. But Christ's later revelation through Paul tells us that the believer is ACCEPTED IN CHRIST. That moots your concern, or should.

Yes. Paul says we are accepted in Christ by His Grace. I agree.

But nobody in Scripture says that means Jesus' words in Matthew 10 are no longer valid. And your logic about that just doesn't make sense to me.

I think Paul shows us Exhibit A of the kind of people Jesus was referring to who are in danger of not being worthy of him. He does this in Galatians 6:12:

"As many as desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would compel you to be circumcised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Christ."

Paul is writing against the Judaizers. Jewish Christians who were pushing circumcision because they were afraid of being persecuted by the orthodox Jews. That is what he means by: they want to show they are still following Jewish customs by pushing circumcision...but they are doing that so that "they may not suffer persecution" as Christians.

They were unwilling to take up their cross for Christ.

I don't see where Paul's words moots Jesus' at all. And my concern is not "is there a cross to bear as a follower of Christ." My concern is being faithful to Jesus and making sure I understand His words.

Thank you the conversation. You bring up some good points.

Peace.

 

[musterion]

Okay.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Does your Bible include Paul's epistles?

LOL!! Yes....somewhere in the back I think

Does Paul say this or something like this somewhere in one of his epistles? I'm not sure if he does and I'm sure you know the bible better than me.

"Hard to be unworthy of Christ when one has been accepted in the Beloved and made a member of Him.

Can't have both. Either one or the other is true for believers."

I haven't been following your logic very well, I'm afraid.

Peace.

 

[Bard_the_Bowman]

Not at Pentecost he didn't.

Sure he did. They just didn't yet know that Gentiles would be included.

Acts 2 is the day of Pentecost. Peter shared the death, burial, and Resurrection of Jesus that saves. I think that is all found in verses 22-44.

Here is a summary of it:

If we read Acts 2 in its entirety Peter proclaims:

1. The death of Jesus (verse 23: "you have crucified and put to death")

2. The burial of Jesus (verses 27,29,31: "Nor will you allow your Holy One to see corruption", "David...is dead and buried...", "concerning the Christ...nor did His flesh see corruption..."

That is referencing a burial and bodily decomposition in the grave.

3. The resurrection of Jesus (verses 24,31,32: "whom God raised up", "concerning the Resurrection of the Christ", "This Jesus God has raised up."

4. That the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus saves. (verses 38-40: "Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.”

So what do they get for believing the words of Peter? Well, they repent and get: remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Spirit and saved.

Further evidence that Peter is referring to being saved when he exhorts them to be baptized is seen when he writes in 1 Peter 3:21: "There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,.."

So Peter shows that the death, burial, and Resurrection of Jesus saves.

God bless.

 

[musterion]

Well, if you can show Peter at Pentecost or Stephen declaring the murder of Christ as GOOD news for anyone's sin, okay.