Is M.A.D. a dangerous heresy? It demands much scripture to be ignored

[Right Divider]

Christ's command to Paul to give to the Gentiles: Drink from the cup of the New Covenant.

Firstly, be very careful when you read books of the Bible. This book is written to a VERY mixed audience.

1Cor 1:1-3 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:1) Paul, called [to be] an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes [our] brother, (1:2) Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: (1:3) Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Cor 10:32 (AKJV/PCE)
(10:32) Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
​

Secondly, Paul NEVER tells the body of Christ the we are UNDER the new covenant. The new covenant has the law written in their hearts and Paul tells us that we not under the law.

Thirdly, the NEW covenant is EXPRESSLY defined in the Bible as between God and ISRAEL.

Jer 31:31-34 (AKJV/PCE)​

(31:31) ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (31:32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (31:33) But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (31:34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. ​

That is the NEW covenant and it CLEARLY explains the parties involved. There is NO ambiguity whatsoever.

 

[themuzicman]

Firstly, be very careful when you read books of the Bible. This book is written to a VERY mixed audience.

1Cor 1:1-3 (AKJV/PCE)​

(1:1) Paul, called [to be] an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes [our] brother, (1:2) Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: (1:3) Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Cor 10:32 (AKJV/PCE)
(10:32) Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
​

You just undercut your own point, as this is a letter written to Jews and Gentiles, which includes an instruction to drink from the cup of the New Covenant.

Secondly, Paul NEVER tells the body of Christ the we are UNDER the new covenant. The new covenant has the law written in their hearts and Paul tells us that we not under the law.

Thirdly, the NEW covenant is EXPRESSLY defined in the Bible as between God and ISRAEL.

Jer 31:31-34 (AKJV/PCE)​

(31:31) ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (31:32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (31:33) But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (31:34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. ​

That is the NEW covenant and it CLEARLY explains the parties involved. There is NO ambiguity whatsoever.

First, you've forgotten Hebrews, where the author there tells us that where there is a New Covenant, there is a New Law:

Hebrews 7:12 For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well.

So, the law that is written in the New Covenant isn't the Old Covenant law, but rather a New Covenant law.

Further:

Romans 9:22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Paul includes both Jews and Gentiles in this pot "prepared beforehand for glory."

Indeed, likewise, in Romans 11, Jews were broken off and Gentiles grafted in, and Paul is warning the Gentiles in the Church in Rome with this.

So, you're really not helping your case.

 

[Right Divider]

You just undercut your own point, as this is a letter written to Jews and Gentiles, which includes an instruction to drink from the cup of the New Covenant.

Believe whatever you want about what you think that this means.

It's a remembrance of Christ's death. Paul does not say that this puts you under the new covenant. You have to completely IGNORE Jeremiah (and much more of the prophets) to think such a thing.

First, you've forgotten Hebrews, where the author there tells us that where there is a New Covenant, there is a New Law:

Hebrews was written to the HEBREWS and not to the body of Christ. The body of Christ has NO priesthood (a word completely MISSING from Paul's epistles).

So, the law that is written in the New Covenant isn't the Old Covenant law, but rather a New Covenant law.

The Bible does not say that, but Paul does say what WE are NOT under the law but under grace.

Paul includes both Jews and Gentiles in this pot "prepared beforehand for glory."

Indeed, likewise, in Romans 11, Jews were broken off and Gentiles grafted in, and Paul is warning the Gentiles in the Church in Rome with this.

Romans 11 is NOT about the NEW CREATURE.

So, you're really not helping your case.

Of course you'd say that.

 

[themuzicman]

Believe whatever you want about what you think that this means.

It's a remembrance of Christ's death. Paul does not say that this puts you under the new covenant. You have to completely IGNORE Jeremiah (and much more of the prophets) to think such a thing.

It's an acknowledgement that one is under the New Covenant. You're drinking from a cup with the symbolic blood of the New Covenant in it. That's a clear indicator of participation.

Hebrews was written to the HEBREWS and not to the body of Christ. The body of Christ has NO priesthood (a word completely MISSING from Paul's epistles).

That may be so, but it clearly tells us that the law of the New Covenant is different from the law of the Old Covenant.

The Bible does not say that, but Paul does say what WE are NOT under the law but under grace.

I just posted the verse that clearly says exactly that. You already acknowledges that there would be a law written on the hearts of those in the New Covenant, and I just showed that a New Covenant means a New Law, per Hebrews 7.

What wasn't clear, there?

Romans 11 is NOT about the NEW CREATURE.

Really? Who are the branches that were grafted in when the Jews were broken off, then?

Of course you'd say that.

You aren't. You're giving evidence that supports my side.

 

[Right Divider]

It's an acknowledgement that one is under the New Covenant. You're drinking from a cup with the symbolic blood of the New Covenant in it. That's a clear indicator of participation.

I disagree

That may be so, but it clearly tells us that the law of the New Covenant is different from the law of the Old Covenant.

How is it different?

The Bible also CLEARLY tells us that BOTH covenants are between God and Israel.

Jer 31:31-33 (AKJV/PCE)​

(31:31) ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: (31:32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: (31:33) But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. ​

I just posted the verse that clearly says exactly that. You already acknowledges that there would be a law written on the hearts of those in the New Covenant, and I just showed that a New Covenant means a New Law, per Hebrews 7.

What wasn't clear, there?

Hebrews is thoroughly HEBREW. Does this cancel Jeremiah 31?

The prophets of Israel explain it all very clearly.

Ezek 36:24-28 (AKJV/PCE)​

(36:24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. (36:25) ¶ Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. (36:26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. (36:27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]. (36:28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

​

Ezek 37:21-24 (AKJV/PCE)​

(37:21) And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: (37:22) And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: (37:23) Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. (37:24) And David my servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.​

Really? Who are the branches that were grafted in when the Jews were broken off, then?

Those broken off were not ALL of the Jews. Gentiles were always allowed to join with Israel, even since the very day God brought them out of Egypt.

Exod 12:43-51 (AKJV/PCE)​

(12:43) ¶ And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This [is] the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof: (12:44) But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof. (12:45) A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof. (12:46) In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof. (12:47) All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. (12:48) And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof. (12:49) One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you. (12:50) Thus did all the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they. (12:51) And it came to pass the selfsame day, [that] the LORD did bring the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their armies. ​

You aren't. You're giving evidence that supports my side.

Believe whatever you want.

 

[Lighthouse]

Paul is giving them correction and instruction on how to execute what Christ had given to him to give to the Gentiles.

Are you sure?

Because we need to be reminded that we are participating in the New Covenant. That's the nature of rituals.

Ritual? Is this a cult?

You mean other than the gospels?

:duh:

That's actually pretty funny. You have no idea what drinking from the cup of the new Covenant means, drinking of what is symbolically Christ's blood, which forms the new Covenant.

I can only present the obvious.

A covenant for Israel; we are not Israel.

 

[Jdorman]

Paul taught that the Gospel was the death, burial and resurrection.

He also taught that those who don't "obey the Gospel" would reap the vengeance of God (same terminology used in 1 Pet 4:17)

2 Thessalonians 1:8
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

You obey the Gospel by repentance (take up your cross, die to yourself), baptism (buried with Him), and receiving and walking in the Holy Ghost (the power of the resurrection).

That's why Paul baptized people after they repented, and God filled them with the Holy Ghost when Paul laid his hands on them.

How else do you "obey the Gospel"?


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Right on Acts 2:38

 

[Right Divider]

Right on Acts 2:38

Acts 2:44-46 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:44) And all that believed were together, and had all things common; (2:45) And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all [men], as every man had need. (2:46) And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, ​

Are you "daily with one accord in the temple"?

 

[jamie]

A covenant for Israel; we are not Israel.

And Gentiles have no covenant with God apart from Israel.

 

[Right Divider]

And Gentiles have no covenant with God apart from Israel.

And we, the body of Christ, are saved by grace through faith without the need of a covenant. We are complete in Him.

You need to learn about the revelation of the mystery. Unfortunately, it seems that you've not yet discovered it.

 

[jamie]

And we, the body of Christ, are saved by grace through faith without the need of a covenant.

How can you be in the body of Christ if you are not the seed of Abraham as Jesus is?

In Galatians 3:29 Paul said, "And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

What promise?

"That the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." (verse 14)

 

[Right Divider]

How can you be in the body of Christ if you are not the seed of Abraham as Jesus is?

In Galatians 3:29 Paul said, "And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

What promise?

"That the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." (verse 14)

What does any of THAT have to do with the covenants that God made with Israel? Nothing.

 

[jamie]

What does any of THAT have to do with the covenants that God made with Israel? Nothing.

In whom will all the families of the earth be blessed?

 

[Right Divider]

In whom will all the families of the earth be blessed?

The entire world will be blessed when Christ returns to setup His kingdom and destroys the kingdoms of this world.

The LORD will remove all things that offend. etc. etc. etc.

 

[jamie]

The entire world will be blessed when Christ returns to setup His kingdom and destroys the kingdoms of this world.

And his kingdom will be made up of the Father's firstborn, right?

 

[Right Divider]

And his kingdom will be made up of the Father's firstborn, right?

jamie and her baiting questions and misunderstanding of God's choices.

God chose the nation of Israel to be His "top dog". The gentiles nations will serve Israel in the kingdom.

Isa 60:10-12 (AKJV/PCE)​

(60:10) And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee. (60:11) Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that [men] may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and [that] their kings [may be] brought. (60:12) For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, [those] nations shall be utterly wasted.

​

Isa 60:15-22 (AKJV/PCE)​

(60:15) Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man went through [thee], I will make thee an eternal excellency, a joy of many generations. (60:16) Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD [am] thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob. (60:17) For brass I will bring gold, and for iron I will bring silver, and for wood brass, and for stones iron: I will also make thy officers peace, and thine exactors righteousness. (60:18) Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shalt call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise. (60:19) The sun shall be no more thy light by day; neither for brightness shall the moon give light unto thee: but the LORD shall be unto thee an everlasting light, and thy God thy glory. (60:20) Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended. (60:21) Thy people also [shall be] all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified. (60:22) A little one shall become a thousand, and a small one a strong nation: I the LORD will hasten it in his time. ​

It will ALL come to pass.

 

[jamie]

Does that include Psalms 8:4-5? Will that come to pass?

 

[Right Divider]

Does that include Psalms 8:4-5? Will that come to pass?

jamie, does it confuse you when God fulfills some of His prophecies at one time and some at another time?

Ps 8:4-6 (AKJV/PCE)​

(8:4) What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? (8:5) For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. (8:6) Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all [things] under his feet: ​

​

Heb 2:6-8 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:6) But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? (2:7) Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: (2:8) Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. ​

 

[SimpleMan77]

jamie, does it confuse you when God fulfills some of His prophecies at one time and some at another time?

Ps 8:4-6 (AKJV/PCE)​

(8:4) What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? (8:5) For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. (8:6) Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all [things] under his feet: ​

​

Heb 2:6-8 (AKJV/PCE)​

(2:6) But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? (2:7) Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: (2:8) Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. ​

RD, does it confuse you when God mixes symbolic and figurative prophecies with literal ones?

Jeremiah 31:15
Thus saith the Lord; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rachel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.

Can God not mix figurative prophecies with literal, and He be the one to decide which is which, whether about land, rivers, children, etc?

Case in point. Ezekiel 47 talks about a river coming out of the temple, along with talking about property boundaries. The temple in this passage is figurative, proven by the fact that the river refers to the Holy Ghost. Jesus references this passage in John 7:37-39. There is no other Scripture Jesus could be referring to: a river of life-giving water flowing out of the innermost being of his people.

If the river in this scripture is figurative, and the temple is figurative, I would expect the land boundaries to be figurative and symbolic.


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[Right Divider]

RD, does it confuse you when God mixes symbolic and figurative prophecies with literal ones?

No.