Are you thinking Jesus was a descendant of Aaron?
Is M.A.D. a dangerous heresy? It demands much scripture to be ignored
- Thread starter SimpleMan77
- Start date
Are you thinking Jesus was a descendant of Aaron?
Right Divider
Body part
No.
SimpleMan77
New member
One baptism, consisting of physical water and the infilling of the Holy Ghost, with the initial evidence of speaking with tongues. Two elements, one baptism "into Christ".
The Spirit led the man Christ Jesus into the will of the Father, which was his physical death, so it's hard to separate the baptism that He had yet to go through from his Spirit Baptism.
In order for us to remain sons of God we must be led by the Spirit of God (Romans 8), so in that sense we must "be baptized with the baptism that He is baptized with".
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Jesus who had no sin, couldn't have been "washing away sin" in johns baptism. He didnt come out of the water speaking in tongues, and He is immersed with the Spirit of God.
Do you not notice you see no johns baptism by Christ when here?
SimpleMan77
New member
Is M.A.D. a dangerous heresy? It demands much scripture to be ignored
1. To make eternal security be true, you have to throw out huge portions of the Bible. Paul, for one, said that if he did not "keep under his body" that he would be a castaway. He also said that the flesh and Spirit are at enmity one with another, and the only ones who are the sons of God are those who will follow the Spirit of God.
2. So you are saying that we have to wait until we get to the end of our lives to see if we leave God before we can say for sure if we ever knew Him and He knew us. That is making our eternity and saved status completely conditional on what our choices prove out.
3. If saved status happens as soon as you receive the Holy Ghost and start speaking in tongues, and then there is absolutely no obedience required, why did Paul talk about us being a living sacrifice in Romans 12:1, followed by two chapters full of works for us to do?
4. Yes
5. Actually Jesus told Peter that whatever he bound on earth would be bound in heaven. He spent 3 1/2 years living with Jesus, so I am pretty sure that he knew exactly what Jesus wanted him to command.
Where is my evidence? In 1 Cor 5:11 Paul says he is "called a brother". There are quite a few other bits of evidence also, but I will leave it at that because it is so plain.
Paul said that fornicators could not inherit the kingdom of God. He reminded them that they had once been that way, but that God had changed them. Going back to their old sinful ways = going back to their old, unsaved condition.
He simply, unequivocally stated that those who live unrighteously in sin shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
1. To make eternal security be true, you have to throw out huge portions of the Bible. Paul, for one, said that if he did not "keep under his body" that he would be a castaway. He also said that the flesh and Spirit are at enmity one with another, and the only ones who are the sons of God are those who will follow the Spirit of God.
2. So you are saying that we have to wait until we get to the end of our lives to see if we leave God before we can say for sure if we ever knew Him and He knew us. That is making our eternity and saved status completely conditional on what our choices prove out.
3. If saved status happens as soon as you receive the Holy Ghost and start speaking in tongues, and then there is absolutely no obedience required, why did Paul talk about us being a living sacrifice in Romans 12:1, followed by two chapters full of works for us to do?
4. Yes
5. Actually Jesus told Peter that whatever he bound on earth would be bound in heaven. He spent 3 1/2 years living with Jesus, so I am pretty sure that he knew exactly what Jesus wanted him to command.
Where is my evidence? In 1 Cor 5:11 Paul says he is "called a brother". There are quite a few other bits of evidence also, but I will leave it at that because it is so plain.
Paul said that fornicators could not inherit the kingdom of God. He reminded them that they had once been that way, but that God had changed them. Going back to their old sinful ways = going back to their old, unsaved condition.
He simply, unequivocally stated that those who live unrighteously in sin shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
SimpleMan77
New member
Is M.A.D. a dangerous heresy? It demands much scripture to be ignored
The problem I have with MAD is that I see it as a doctrine born out of a desperate desire to prove that no obedience is required in order to be saved, and no amount of disobedience can amount to walking away from God (i.e. being lost).
It makes living for God a matter of thinking the thought "I believe", after which time you can live any way you wish. It totally "turns the grace of God into lasciviousness (license to sin)", but of course that scripture was written by Jude, therefore only being applicable to Jews in their view.
They turn any obedience to God into a "work to earn salvation" so they can convince themselves that anything that is easy on their flesh is perfectly ok, and anything that is a "living sacrifice" is poison (lest we try to earn God's grace).
Of course they have to also twist Paul's words because he says a lot that doesn't agree with their doctrine, but they are ok with that I guess.
I hate to put it that bluntly, but it is the truth
I'll add that some have been deceived honestly, but "flesh" is the underlying driver behind it.
Truly honest people will understand that we can't earn God's grace, but GRACE, according to Paul, teaches and enables us to "deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, and live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world".
Obedience in light of grace is Paul's way of putting it. Romans 12:1-2. Grace renews our minds, and teaches us how to prove what is the good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God. The chapters following tell us how to prove that by "keeping our flesh in subjection". Paul said that even he would be a castaway if he didn't keep his flesh under the rule of the Spirit of Holiness.
[MENTION=16688]Danoh[/MENTION] [MENTION=6992]heir[/MENTION] [MENTION=2492]Lighthouse[/MENTION] [MENTION=13987]Angel4Truth[/MENTION] [MENTION=15338]Right Divider[/MENTION] [MENTION=7053]SaulToPaul[/MENTION] [MENTION=3698]Tambora[/MENTION]
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
The problem I have with MAD is that I see it as a doctrine born out of a desperate desire to prove that no obedience is required in order to be saved, and no amount of disobedience can amount to walking away from God (i.e. being lost).
It makes living for God a matter of thinking the thought "I believe", after which time you can live any way you wish. It totally "turns the grace of God into lasciviousness (license to sin)", but of course that scripture was written by Jude, therefore only being applicable to Jews in their view.
They turn any obedience to God into a "work to earn salvation" so they can convince themselves that anything that is easy on their flesh is perfectly ok, and anything that is a "living sacrifice" is poison (lest we try to earn God's grace).
Of course they have to also twist Paul's words because he says a lot that doesn't agree with their doctrine, but they are ok with that I guess.
I hate to put it that bluntly, but it is the truth
I'll add that some have been deceived honestly, but "flesh" is the underlying driver behind it.
Truly honest people will understand that we can't earn God's grace, but GRACE, according to Paul, teaches and enables us to "deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, and live soberly, righteously and godly in this present world".
Obedience in light of grace is Paul's way of putting it. Romans 12:1-2. Grace renews our minds, and teaches us how to prove what is the good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God. The chapters following tell us how to prove that by "keeping our flesh in subjection". Paul said that even he would be a castaway if he didn't keep his flesh under the rule of the Spirit of Holiness.
[MENTION=16688]Danoh[/MENTION] [MENTION=6992]heir[/MENTION] [MENTION=2492]Lighthouse[/MENTION] [MENTION=13987]Angel4Truth[/MENTION] [MENTION=15338]Right Divider[/MENTION] [MENTION=7053]SaulToPaul[/MENTION] [MENTION=3698]Tambora[/MENTION]
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Right Divider
Body part
We all agree that we need to be obedient to God. Your problem is you think that denying ungodliness, etc. is the obedience required to be saved.
You simply do NOT understand the dispensation of the grace of God and are trying to have your own righteousness.
Rom 5:12-21 (AKJV/PCE)
(5:12) Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (5:13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. (5:14) Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. (5:15) But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.(5:16) And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification. (5:17) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) (5:18) Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life. (5:19) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. (5:20) Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: (5:21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
You're not the one.
SimpleMan77
New member
Actually that's quite far from what I believe. We are saved by grace - 100%. It is God's grace that caused Him to go to Calvary, and His grace that loved us while we were yet sinners. His grace alone offers salvation to us. We cannot even desire to change unless prompted by grace.
However, to receive God's grace we must first accept it, then walk in it.
The biggest disagreement I have with this type of thinking is that I believe you can choose to walk away from God. He gives you the choice to not spend eternity with Him if you so desire.
That choice begins in your mind, and is implemented in your actions. Loving sin more than Him (i.e. the works of the flesh), and dying without changing that choice, will amount to rejecting God's grace.
If God says to be baptized, doing so isn't trying to earn salvation, its simple obedience. Refusing to do so is rejecting God's grace.
God's grace was extended to Noah with an offer of Salvation. Without obedience, Noah would have squandered grace, and died with everyone else. Did Noah earn that grace? Absolutely not!! You can't earn grace!! But he had to obey for grace to save him!!
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Once you're in the Body of Christ, you are not your own, you've been bought. You have an OWNER.
Tough...deal with it.
Tough...deal with it.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
What does believing 1 Cor 15:1-4 (KJV) require of YOU?
SimpleMan77
New member
Is M.A.D. a dangerous heresy? It demands much scripture to be ignored
So I guess you're quite comfortable with a belief system that says "once you believe, do whatever seems best to you - don't inconvenience yourself to try to line up with the things God endorses, lest you be guilty of trying to work your way to heaven".
Certainly your right, but not Biblical.
Interestingly I find that this mindset is distinctly American, where people have everything handed to them if they like. The idea that Paul uses where he says "if you plant fleshly things, you'll harvest corruption", i.e. you "reap what you sow" is strangely missing.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
So I guess you're quite comfortable with a belief system that says "once you believe, do whatever seems best to you - don't inconvenience yourself to try to line up with the things God endorses, lest you be guilty of trying to work your way to heaven".
Certainly your right, but not Biblical.
Interestingly I find that this mindset is distinctly American, where people have everything handed to them if they like. The idea that Paul uses where he says "if you plant fleshly things, you'll harvest corruption", i.e. you "reap what you sow" is strangely missing.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Why would I think that?
I'm guessing you're one of those who say, "If I believed like you, I'd just go out and rob a bank and murder".
That says a lot about you.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Salvation was "handed" to me. I could do absolutely NOTHING to please God.
But, he is pleased with his Son, and the Father placed me in the Son.
But, he is pleased with his Son, and the Father placed me in the Son.
SimpleMan77
New member
Is M.A.D. a dangerous heresy? It demands much scripture to be ignored
Actually it's called "flesh" and everyone has one. Paul put it this way about himself: "I find a law that when I would do good, evil is present with me". He said the only remedy was to be filled with the Holy Ghost, and to walk in the leading of the Holy Ghost.
To "walk after the leading of the Holy Ghost" is a step by step process. Each step is a decision to follow God and deny the flesh.
If it's easier to lie then tell the truth, you choose the truth. If it's more fun to fornicate than it is to be faithful to your wife, you choose faithfulness. Etc, etc.
That is not "earning salvation". It is walking with God!
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Actually it's called "flesh" and everyone has one. Paul put it this way about himself: "I find a law that when I would do good, evil is present with me". He said the only remedy was to be filled with the Holy Ghost, and to walk in the leading of the Holy Ghost.
To "walk after the leading of the Holy Ghost" is a step by step process. Each step is a decision to follow God and deny the flesh.
If it's easier to lie then tell the truth, you choose the truth. If it's more fun to fornicate than it is to be faithful to your wife, you choose faithfulness. Etc, etc.
That is not "earning salvation". It is walking with God!
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Right Divider
Body part
Saved first, then walk. Yes, that is correct.
But then you think that you can get unsaved?
Your version of "grace" is flawed.
See... there you go again. It's all about YOU. What YOU think, what YOU do....
You do not know grace.
The water ceremony belongs to Israel and not YOU.
Salvation from drowning is NOT the same as the grace offered in this dispensation. Noah was told to build an ark, YOU are not. You are told to believe that Christ did it all and that you are complete in Him, but you don't believe it.
SimpleMan77
New member
You're absolutely correct, but totally wrong in your application.
When you could do nothing to please God, Christ died for you and the righteousness of Jesus was applied to you.
However, while you could do no works as a sinner to please God, you CAN do works as a Christian THAT DISPLEASE him and make you a castaway.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
SimpleMan77
New member
SimpleMan77
New member
There's a verse for that.
Acts 10:43-47
Well apparently it's not for Israel but everyoneAlso this shows that people are saved prior to their water baptism through faith. Dang!
I, for one, don't have a problem with them being saved before baptism. If they would have died of a heart attack at that moment, I'd plan to see them in heaven.
However, if they'd have looked at the rest of "the whole counsel of God", as Paul called it, and said "we don't have to obey anything else that God commands", they would have become "castaways".
Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Right Divider
Body part
Yes, he did what he knew right up UNTIL God told him something different.
God uses PROGRESSIVE REVELATION. He did NOT reveal all of His plans in Genesis 1:1.
SimpleMan77
New member
True. But Paul instructed both Jews and Gentiles to be baptized. After his revelation of the mystery.
Sent from my iPhone using TOL