glorydaz
Well-known member
Students listen, they don't stand at the podium and preach. So what she claims doesn't mean anything.
Foundation.
- Thread starter Truster
- Start date
- Status
Students listen, they don't stand at the podium and preach. So what she claims doesn't mean anything.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I don't say that, odd one.
But, since you and Meshak are still under the law for righteousness, you may as well read James.
popsthebuilder
New member
Perhaps you could attempt to answer the question.
Sent from my Alcatel_6055U using Tapatalk
glorydaz
Well-known member
How about you make your "question" clear?
That usually helps when one expects an answer.
God's Truth
New member
God's Spirit inside of the saved motivates us to want to obey---that does not mean God makes us obey. It doesn't mean God does the obeying for us!
Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.
Did you read that? God wants you to ACT to do what He says.
God's Truth
New member
You said you don't do that, then you put down obeying James as some old law preacher.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I didn't say God "makes us obey", nor did I say God "does the obeying for us".
You're the one who claims we HAVE to obey in order to be saved and stay saved.
Of course I've read it. I quote it all the time, as you well know. God is busy doing His work in us...even when it's something we don't "want" to do. Most times, we don't even know when He is working in our lives...else we be puffed up with our own greatness. You should really consider that, since it's been such a problem for you.
God's Truth
New member
I do not believe that just because someone says they believe that it means they are righteous.
As for some of the other things you said, I just don't know what you mean.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I know this is confusing, God's unTruth. Just take my word for it. Meshak was reviling me one minute, then wishing me peace with her next breath....that's being a hypocrite. Look it up in the dictionary.
God's Truth
New member
You said, "Some of us don't claim to do what only God can accomplish in us."
Faith alone is dead and cannot save anyone. See James 2:14, 17, 20, 22, and 24.
So since you say God works in us to obey, tell me what He wants you to obey and if any of it is teachings from Jesus when he walked the earth.
God's Truth
New member
You quoted James and then call him an old law preacher is inexcusable.
God's Truth
New member
Oh yes, it so good to have a sister in Christ here care about how badly I am treated here. Thank you Meshak.
popsthebuilder
New member
How does one proclaim a single, true, unconditional love while putting their own wants above those of the beloved?
In other words; is it really unconditional love if in reality something else is loved more and out first?
Sent from my Alcatel_6055U using Tapatalk
Ask Mr. Religion
☞☞☞☞Presbyterian (PCA) 	
Gold Subscriber
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
No Need to Reconcile Friends: James and Paul
No Need to Reconcile Friends: James and Paul
James and Paul need no reconciliation. They are already friends.
Paul says in Romans 4:2,3: “If Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? 'And Abraham believed God,and it was reckoned to him as righteousness'.”
James says in James 2:21: “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?”
This apparent contradiction between Paul and James caused Martin Luther, along with many since him, to put James at the back of his New Testament and to call it “a right strawy epistle." As much as I admire Luther and his work, I think he set up a straw man to knock down. (I have sometimes wondered if it is not a peculiar penchant of the German mind to see contradictions where there is only diversity of expression.) Fortunately, Luther came around later in his life with a proper understanding of James.
Defining the Terms in Paul and James
Let's define our terms as Paul and James use them. Paul's definition for “faith” and “works” is found in Romans 4:4,5,20,21.
"Works" in Paul
“To the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor but as what is his due” (Romans 4:4). That is, works are anything we do with the aim of making God our debtor. Works are anything done to show that we are worthy of some blessing from God. Works don't want any favors (for favors imply weakness); they just want their due, their wage. So “works” in Paul's language cannot be equated with deeds per se. It has here a negative connotation: the way one acts when he will not believe that the good which comes to him from God, comes not as a wage, but as a merciful favor.
"Faith" in Paul
“But to the one who does not work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness” (Romans 4:5). According to this verse, faith excludes all working: they are like oil and water, light and dark. To have one means you do not have the other. (James says the very opposite: “faith was active along with his works and faith was completed by works” [James 2:22]).
The reason is obvious if we keep in mind Paul's definitions. A “work” is something done to show myself worthy; “Faith” knows itself to be “ungodly” and trusts wholly in God's mercy, not in its own worth. Faith is fully assured that God will keep his gracious promises (Romans 4:21) and in this way faith gives glory to God (Romans 4:20) and seeks no glory for itself alone (as works do).
Works for Paul are man's vain attempts to overcome his limitations and thus win God's approval.
Faith for Paul is the cessation of all such attempts, an acknowledgment of one's lack of worth and a wholehearted confidence in the mercy of God for his acceptance.
Now, if James uses “works” and “faith” with identical meanings I will have to agree that there is an irreconcilable contradiction between him and Paul because if that were so, Paul could never agree that “faith was active along with works and faith was completed by works” (James 2:22). Using the definitions of Romans 4 this would be like saying: “Faith works with unbelief and is completed by it.”
But does James define his terms like Paul does in Romans 4? I think not. As far as I can see both "works" and "faith" are used differently than they are in Romans 4.
"Works" in James
For James, works are deeds done in obedience to the will of God, for example, Abraham's offering his son Isaac (James 2:21). Another example is to see a brother or sister ill-clad and lacking daily food and to give them the things they need. There is no connotation here of the self-glorification of Romans 4:4. Works are simply good deeds which accord with God's will. Paul's concern was, or course, not to eliminate obedience to God (see Romans 1:5;16:26), but to eliminate boasting before God (Romans 3:27). For James, “works” does not imply boasting like it does for Paul. They use the same term to describe two different things.
"Faith" in James
In 2:26 James says “For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”
This is a strange analogy: the body (which does work) is paralleled with faith and the spirit (which exercises faith) is paralleled with works. For James, works are the life-giving principle, the quickening spirit of faith. Faith is a dead hulk that lies dead until “works” comes in alongside (James 2:22) and give it life.
What does James mean by “dead faith”? Does he mean “no faith” or “faith that is useless and idle”? He means the latter, I think, for this is what he says in James 2:20, “Faith without works is useless or idle.”
Or again in James 2:14, James doesn't deny that his opponent has faith, just because he has no works; he simply says, “Can his faith save him?”
Answer: No. My suggestion is, then, that when James speaks of a “dead faith” (James 2:17,26) or a “useless” faith (James 2:20) or a faith that does not profit (James 2:24), he is not denying that the person has faith, but is saying that until that faith is enlivened by the “spirit” called “works” (James 2:26) it will not justify or save. I think Paul never used faith in this sense—of something a man can have yet it be “useless.” He certainly did not use it this way in Romans 4.
A Useless and Profitless Faith
What is this faith which is useless and profits nothing and is like a dead body waiting for the soul? I think James 2:19 give us a clear answer: “You have faith that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe and shudder.”
What is the function of this verse in James' argument? When you read it together with verse James 2:20, it is evident that James is describing what the faith of the “foolish fellow” of verse James 2:20 is — namely a mere intellectual assent to certain facts about God. It is a faith that even demons have. It is thus a useless and profitless faith.
Is James Contradicting Paul?
Having defined our terms and seen the differences between Paul's usage and James' usage we may ask whether James is teaching anything contradictory to Paul. Admittedly James 2:14-26 and Romans 4 are not saying the very same thing; their aims are different.
James aims to confront the error of a man who has a kind of faith, but turns away his hungry brother unfed (James 2:16). Paul aims to confront a self-righteous Judaism which thinks it can boast before God on the basis of works (Romans 3:27; Romans 2:23). Confronting such varied problems we should not ask that they use the same terminology or say the same thing.
But do their viewpoints clash? There is ample evidence that Paul agreed with James that without deeds of love everything else is useless (cf. 1 Corinthians 13:1-3; Romans 8:4,13;Galatians 5:21; 1 Thessalonians 4:6). When Paul refers to saving faith he includes obedience (Romans 1:5;16:26) and works of love (Galatians 5:6).
Our Standing Rests Entirely on Grace
There is also evidence that James agreed with Paul that our standing with God rests entirely on grace and that there is no room for boasting before God in our righteousness. He refers to the start of Christian existence as a divine act of creation whereby we are “brought forth by the word” (James 1:18; i.e. by “the hearing of faith" [Galatians 3:2,5]) He refers to the continuation of the Christian life as a product of the “wisdom from above” (James 3:17) just as Paul describes it as the fruit of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22). And finally, he calls for deep humility before God (James 4:10) in view of how “miserable” we are (James 4:9).
In view of these agreements, I would suggest that the tension between James 2 and Romans 4 is properly resolved when we recognize that “works” in James 2:14-26 is what Paul means by “faith working through love” in Galatians 5:6 or by the “obedience of faith” in Romans 1:5 and Romans 16:26.
AMR
No Need to Reconcile Friends: James and Paul
James and Paul need no reconciliation. They are already friends.
Paul says in Romans 4:2,3: “If Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? 'And Abraham believed God,and it was reckoned to him as righteousness'.”
James says in James 2:21: “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?”
This apparent contradiction between Paul and James caused Martin Luther, along with many since him, to put James at the back of his New Testament and to call it “a right strawy epistle." As much as I admire Luther and his work, I think he set up a straw man to knock down. (I have sometimes wondered if it is not a peculiar penchant of the German mind to see contradictions where there is only diversity of expression.) Fortunately, Luther came around later in his life with a proper understanding of James.
Defining the Terms in Paul and James
Let's define our terms as Paul and James use them. Paul's definition for “faith” and “works” is found in Romans 4:4,5,20,21.
"Works" in Paul
“To the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor but as what is his due” (Romans 4:4). That is, works are anything we do with the aim of making God our debtor. Works are anything done to show that we are worthy of some blessing from God. Works don't want any favors (for favors imply weakness); they just want their due, their wage. So “works” in Paul's language cannot be equated with deeds per se. It has here a negative connotation: the way one acts when he will not believe that the good which comes to him from God, comes not as a wage, but as a merciful favor.
"Faith" in Paul
“But to the one who does not work, but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness” (Romans 4:5). According to this verse, faith excludes all working: they are like oil and water, light and dark. To have one means you do not have the other. (James says the very opposite: “faith was active along with his works and faith was completed by works” [James 2:22]).
The reason is obvious if we keep in mind Paul's definitions. A “work” is something done to show myself worthy; “Faith” knows itself to be “ungodly” and trusts wholly in God's mercy, not in its own worth. Faith is fully assured that God will keep his gracious promises (Romans 4:21) and in this way faith gives glory to God (Romans 4:20) and seeks no glory for itself alone (as works do).
Works for Paul are man's vain attempts to overcome his limitations and thus win God's approval.
Faith for Paul is the cessation of all such attempts, an acknowledgment of one's lack of worth and a wholehearted confidence in the mercy of God for his acceptance.
Now, if James uses “works” and “faith” with identical meanings I will have to agree that there is an irreconcilable contradiction between him and Paul because if that were so, Paul could never agree that “faith was active along with works and faith was completed by works” (James 2:22). Using the definitions of Romans 4 this would be like saying: “Faith works with unbelief and is completed by it.”
But does James define his terms like Paul does in Romans 4? I think not. As far as I can see both "works" and "faith" are used differently than they are in Romans 4.
"Works" in James
For James, works are deeds done in obedience to the will of God, for example, Abraham's offering his son Isaac (James 2:21). Another example is to see a brother or sister ill-clad and lacking daily food and to give them the things they need. There is no connotation here of the self-glorification of Romans 4:4. Works are simply good deeds which accord with God's will. Paul's concern was, or course, not to eliminate obedience to God (see Romans 1:5;16:26), but to eliminate boasting before God (Romans 3:27). For James, “works” does not imply boasting like it does for Paul. They use the same term to describe two different things.
"Faith" in James
In 2:26 James says “For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.”
This is a strange analogy: the body (which does work) is paralleled with faith and the spirit (which exercises faith) is paralleled with works. For James, works are the life-giving principle, the quickening spirit of faith. Faith is a dead hulk that lies dead until “works” comes in alongside (James 2:22) and give it life.
What does James mean by “dead faith”? Does he mean “no faith” or “faith that is useless and idle”? He means the latter, I think, for this is what he says in James 2:20, “Faith without works is useless or idle.”
Or again in James 2:14, James doesn't deny that his opponent has faith, just because he has no works; he simply says, “Can his faith save him?”
Answer: No. My suggestion is, then, that when James speaks of a “dead faith” (James 2:17,26) or a “useless” faith (James 2:20) or a faith that does not profit (James 2:24), he is not denying that the person has faith, but is saying that until that faith is enlivened by the “spirit” called “works” (James 2:26) it will not justify or save. I think Paul never used faith in this sense—of something a man can have yet it be “useless.” He certainly did not use it this way in Romans 4.
A Useless and Profitless Faith
What is this faith which is useless and profits nothing and is like a dead body waiting for the soul? I think James 2:19 give us a clear answer: “You have faith that God is one; you do well. The demons also believe and shudder.”
What is the function of this verse in James' argument? When you read it together with verse James 2:20, it is evident that James is describing what the faith of the “foolish fellow” of verse James 2:20 is — namely a mere intellectual assent to certain facts about God. It is a faith that even demons have. It is thus a useless and profitless faith.
Is James Contradicting Paul?
Having defined our terms and seen the differences between Paul's usage and James' usage we may ask whether James is teaching anything contradictory to Paul. Admittedly James 2:14-26 and Romans 4 are not saying the very same thing; their aims are different.
James aims to confront the error of a man who has a kind of faith, but turns away his hungry brother unfed (James 2:16). Paul aims to confront a self-righteous Judaism which thinks it can boast before God on the basis of works (Romans 3:27; Romans 2:23). Confronting such varied problems we should not ask that they use the same terminology or say the same thing.
But do their viewpoints clash? There is ample evidence that Paul agreed with James that without deeds of love everything else is useless (cf. 1 Corinthians 13:1-3; Romans 8:4,13;Galatians 5:21; 1 Thessalonians 4:6). When Paul refers to saving faith he includes obedience (Romans 1:5;16:26) and works of love (Galatians 5:6).
Our Standing Rests Entirely on Grace
There is also evidence that James agreed with Paul that our standing with God rests entirely on grace and that there is no room for boasting before God in our righteousness. He refers to the start of Christian existence as a divine act of creation whereby we are “brought forth by the word” (James 1:18; i.e. by “the hearing of faith" [Galatians 3:2,5]) He refers to the continuation of the Christian life as a product of the “wisdom from above” (James 3:17) just as Paul describes it as the fruit of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22). And finally, he calls for deep humility before God (James 4:10) in view of how “miserable” we are (James 4:9).
In view of these agreements, I would suggest that the tension between James 2 and Romans 4 is properly resolved when we recognize that “works” in James 2:14-26 is what Paul means by “faith working through love” in Galatians 5:6 or by the “obedience of faith” in Romans 1:5 and Romans 16:26.
AMR
glorydaz
Well-known member
Are you trying to say God wants us to prove we love Him by putting conditions on salvation?
If not, I still don't have a clue what you are asking.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I certainly can't call her God's "Truth" when she doesn't preach His truth. That's called honesty.
I don't care if I'm slandered. Why are you projecting your feelings onto me?
glorydaz
Well-known member
That's a pretty dumb thing to say, since I quote Jesus and He preached the law.
A person can quote from the law and not be under it. It's a real mystery, isn't it? :chuckle:
- Status