[MENTION=7209]Ask Mr. Religion[/MENTION] care to weigh in?
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Christians worship Christ; JW's do not!
- Thread starter Apple7
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[MENTION=7209]Ask Mr. Religion[/MENTION] care to weigh in?
No.
One unity with 3 distinct persons that interact with one another.
Steko put together a great post one time that explained that if GOD is love and GOD is faithful, then it necessitated that there is an object of affection love and faithfulness is directed towards.
So, if GOD is love from all eternity, then there had to be an object of affection to express that love and faithfulness towards.
Wish I had saved it.
Coupled with the clear statements in Genesis 1 of GOD speaking as "us" and "our" (so GOD is clearly not one lone person), and that in that same chapter we have the statement of two being one.
So right off the bat we have a precedence to help us with other portions of scripture ----- GOD is not one lone person, and "one" can be a plural unity.
And as we continue to read through scripture with that precedence in mind, we see much more that confirms that the "one" GOD is revealed to us in 3 distinct persons - Father, Son, Holy Spirit which have from eternity loved each other with a perfect love and are faithful to each other with a perfect faithfulness.
drbrumley
Well-known member
Exodus 3
11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?
12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
John 8
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
I AM!!!!!!
11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?
12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.
John 8
51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
I AM!!!!!!
Some people like to pretend that verse is not an illusion to the I AM of Exodus.
But the thing is that is was not a capital offense (by stoning) to be crazy and think you had seen Abraham in his day.
It was not until Jesus made the I AM statement that they took up rocks to stone Him.
glorydaz
Well-known member
I remember Steko's post. It was beautifully explained.
glorydaz
Well-known member
The Jews clearly understood. It figures these dumb Gentiles can't put themselves in the place of the Jews....then they might see.
Speaking of Jews that knew GOD was a unity and not a single person .......
| How can they (the three) be One? Are they verily One, because we call them One ? How Three can be One, can only be known through the revelation of the Holy Spirit. - Zohar, vol. ii. p. 43, versa., 22. |
| Come and see the mystery of the word hwhy, Jehova: there are three steps, each existing by itself; nevertheless they are One, and so united that one cannot be separated from the other. - Zohar, vol. iii. Amsterdam edition. 65. |
| The Ancient Holy One is revealed with three Heads, which are united in One, and that Head is thrice exalted. The Ancient Holy one is described as being Three; it is because the other Lights emanating from Him are included in the Three. Yet the Ancient One is described as being two. The Ancient One includes these two. He is the Crown of all that is exalted; the Chief of the chief, so exalted, that He cannot be known to perfection. Thus the other lights are two complete ones, yet is the Ancient Holy One described complete as one, and He is one, positively one; thus are the other lights united and glorified in because they are one. - Zohar, vol. iii. Amsterdam edition. 288. |
| Another book written by Rabbi Simeon ben Jochai, known as The Propositions of the Zohar, records the mystery of the Shechinah glory of God in these words. . . . the exalted Shechinah comprehends the Three highest Sephiroth; of Him (God) it is said, (Ps. lxii. 12), "God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this." Once and twice means the Three exalted Sephiroth, of whom it is said: Once, once, and once; that is, Three united in One. This is the mystery. - Rabbi Simeon ben Jochai, The Propositions of the Zohar, cap. 38, Amsterdam edition. 113 |
| Rabbi Simeon ben Jochai wrote a fascinating passage recorded in the Zohar that is as clear a discussion of the mystery of the Trinity as you could find in any Christian theology text. Rabbi Simeon comments on the text found in Deuteronomy 32:39: "See now that I, I am he, and Elohim is not with me." He said: "Friends, here are some profound mysteries which I desire to reveal to you now that permission has been given to utter them. Who is it that says, 'See now that I, I am He?' This is the Cause which is above all those on high, that which is called the Cause of causes. It is above those other causes, since none of those causes does anything till it obtains permission from that which is above it, as we pointed out above in respect to the expression, 'Let us make man.' 'Us' certainly refers to two, of which one said to the other above it, 'Let us make,' nor did it do anything save with the permission and direction of the one above it, while the one above did nothing without consulting its colleague. But that which is called 'the Cause above all causes,' which has no superior or even equal, as it is written, 'To whom shall ye liken me, that I should be equal?' (referring to Isaiah 40:25), said, 'See now that I, I am he, and Elohim is not with me,' from whom he should take counsel, like that of which it is written, 'and God said, Let us make man.'" |
| Another famous Jewish scholar, Rabbi Eliezer Hakkalir, who lived at the time of Rabbi Simeon ben Jochai, also taught the scriptural doctrine that there were three distinct Beings revealed in the one unified Godhead. In his commentary on Genesis 1:1, Rabbi Hakkalir wrote the following: When God created the world, He created it through the Three Sephiroth, namely, through Sepher, Sapher and Vesaphur, by which the Three twywh (Beings) are meant . . . The Rabbi, my Lord Teacher of blessed memory, explained Sepher, Sapher, and Sippur, to be synonymous to Ja, Jehovah, and Elohim meaning to say, that the world was created by these three names. |
Apple7
New member
Orthodox Christians has always been Trinitarian, for thousands of years.
But then, suddenly, in the last century, Chuck Russell followers claim that for all those thousands of years, Christians had it all wrong.....
Its easy to see what a joke JW's really are...
Ask Mr. Religion
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If you reviewed the debate in question, you would know that the doctrine of the Trinity makes no such claim. Therein you will find:
...confusion lies in confusing ontology and distinctions with respect to the Godhead. Ontologically, there is no difference between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are not three, separate, divine essences (or beings). The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal, co-participants of the one divine essence. When speaking of the Godhead in formal theological terms, we would properly say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three personal subsistences of the one, divine, essence.
The essence of something is that something’s being. In the Greek, the word is ousia. The word essence has its root in the Latin, to be. When speaking of God, the question arises as to how God’s essence makes its existence known, for God is more than having being or existence. Indeed, God is being , for He declared this to be so to Moses in Exodus 3:14-15:
14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM .” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ ”
15 Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’
In the passage above (see also John 5:26; Acts 17:24-25) God declares His self-existence (aseity), importing a boundless, ineffable, absolute, and transcendent being.
If we study in Scripture aspects of the composition of God’s essence, that is, His nature, several important attributes of God’s nature emerge:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1532973#post1532973
How does essence make its existence known? ...We look to Scripture to learn how the essence of God exercises existence, that is, how the essence of God subsists. When something really exists we say this something possesses subsistence. And when we speak of the characteristics of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, we are speaking about the individuated subsistences of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These subsistences do not divide the essence of God. God’s essence is common to the three subsistences, each possessing the essence as one undivided nature—‘as all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Christ’, so in the Holy Spirit; and of the Father.
I do not think you understand "it" at all.
AMR
There is no where in the Bible says that you have to accept trinity doctrine to be saved or Christian.
All you need is to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior with your word and action.
Why should you care? You reject most of the Bible anyways. Hypocrite.
NWL
Active member
Thayer's Greek Lexicon, (which you quoted):
Christian, a follower of Christ: The name was first given to the worshippers of Jesus by the Gentiles
If spirit and truth in John 4:24,25 refers to the HS and Jesus then the scripture is still implying that we are to worship the Father in Jesus and the HS. Your twisted belief in regards to this verse still proves that worship ultimately goes to the Father.
truthjourney
New member
Do you believe that Jesus is the mediator between God and men as this scripture states?
1 Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
truthjourney
New member
NWL
Active member
KingdomRose
New member
I'm afraid that is just not true. You distort the truth very badly, Apple. We worship just as Jesus worships. Who does he worship? The Father, Jehovah. Didn't you know that? Any sincere Bible reader will know that. Jesus called the Father "my God." (John 20:17) You never saw that in your studying of the Scriptures? Well, fancy that.
And did you know that when Jesus finishes his thousand-year reign he will give back the Kingdom to his God and Father, so that Jehovah will be all in all to everyone? You see, YOU are not following Christ, so therefore I guess we have to say that YOU are not Christian.
Jesus said to Mary: "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and to MY GOD and your God." (John 20:17)
"Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to HIS GOD and Father , when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power....When all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone." (I Corinthians 15:24,28)
How will you twist that?
KingdomRose
New member
Yes I do. What is your point?
truthjourney
New member
Are you aware that the Governing Body teaches otherwise? The official doctrine is that Jesus is mediator for the 144,000 alone.
"So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator" only for anointed Christians." Watchtower 1979 Apr 1 p.31
"Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members." Worldwide Security Under the "Prince of Peace" (1986) pp.10-11
truthjourney
New member
My point is that is not the official doctrine of the Governing Body.