Will Only A Few Human Beings Be Saved? No.

[JAGG]

Christianity is still the largest religion in the world with roughly 2 billion people. That would be something to the extent of 20% of the world population.

It is taught in scripture that there will be many who call upon his name, and Jesus will say to depart from him- he never knew them. Those are the people who believed they were the elect, but it was really a broken faith that they deluded themselves with while they went on through life a reprobate.

That's going to be a vast majority of that 2 billion headcount on Christianity- in the Bible, when it is stated that the gate is narrow, the context is abundantly clear. It's not something one can get over with semantics or reinterpretation.

Crucible,

♦ The arguments in post 8 . . (1) . . (2) . . (3) . . have nothing to say about the Earth's present 2+ billion Christians and whether they are genuinely born again or mere pretenders.

♦ The arguments in post 8 . . (1) . . (2) . . (3) describe the numbers of true Christians that will exist at the end of the Christian Church's worldwide/historywide victorious march through history.

when it is stated that the gate is narrow, the context is abundantly clear. It's not something one can get over with semantics or reinterpretation.

The arguments in post 8 . . (1) . . (2) . . (3) . . are not semantics and are not reinterpretation. They are direct quotes from the Holy Bible and, so far in this thread, they have been ignored as if they were never posted.

Here is the issue:

Will the final number of God's Christian people be so enormous that no man can count them? Yes or no?

Will the final number of God's Christian people be as numerous as the stars in the sky? Yes or no?

Will the final number of God's Christian people be as numerous as the sands on the seashore? Yes or no?

If you give yes answers then we have no disagreement and . . .


~ Luke 12:32's "little flock"
~ Mt. 7:14's "only a few find it"
~ Mt. 22:14's "many are called but few are chosen"


. . . . cannot be given a predictive interpretation.

If you give no answers you directly contradict clear statements in the Scriptures.

 

[Lilstu]

~ Luke 12:32's "little flock"
~ Mt. 7:14's "only a few find it"
~ Mt. 22:14's "many are called but few are chosen" . . . .

So have you removed these verses from your Bible?

Another point......
John 16:13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

He will guide you into all the truth; All the many supposed Christian flocks cannot agree on what is truth. They all have their own version of truth.
So is Jesus a liar? No...the little flock has been guided in all truth by the Holy Spirit and the counterfeit Christians have all invented their own truth.

 

[jamie]

So is Jesus a liar? No...the little flock has been guided in all truth by the Holy Spirit and the counterfeit Christians have all invented their own truth.

Wonderfully said.

:thumb:

 

[Crucible]

^
Classic case of people favoring one text over another, with no due reconciliation.

~cherry picking~

There will not be billions of people saved, it's just that simple. To say otherwise is to make faith completely obsolete (easy believism).

 

[Lilstu]

Then I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, “Come.” 2 I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.

Many think this rider on a white horse is Jesus. But it is a counterfeit.
The rider has a bow, Jesus has a sword. The Greek word for "crown" is not the same word used for Jesus' crown. Look at the company of other riders who ride with this rider on a white horse...war, famine, and death.
Just as counterfeit Christianity looks somewhat like the real "little flock" this rider looks somewhat like the real Jesus.

 

[JAGG]

I have found that only a few on this Forum believe and have faith in Christ and his Gospel.

Robert,

I think its impossible for we fallen humans to accurately pass judgement on people's true spiritual condition. This is especially true if they say they have faith in the Lord Jesus as their Savior and then they make an effort to obey the Lord and follow His teaching --- but then fail, they may fail a lot. There is such a thing as "carnal Christians" or "worldly Christians." I mean true born again Christians who are carnal/worldly. They fail more than they succeed --- but God "works with them" and does not "dump them out."

"Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly —mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly."__I Cor. 3:1-2

Paul calls them "Brothers and sisters" and then says they are still "worldly." Some translations say "carnal" --- same thing though.

Here is how the KJV translates I Cor. 3:1-3

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
*I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal:

If you take all of the Christians down through the years then you will have a great multitude.

But NOT a number that even remotely fulfills the numerical requirements of "that no man can count" and as numerous as the "grains of sand" on the seashore. To achieve such numbers as these we need mega-millenniums yet ahead AND we need a Christian Church that is successful in carrying out the Great Task given her by Her Lord at the end of Matthew's gospel.

*And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
*Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matthew 28:18-20

The Total Number Of Humans That Have Lived . . .

Estimates of the total number of humans who have ever lived range in the order of 100 billion. Estimates of this kind cannot hope to give more than the rough order of magnitude, as even modern population estimates are fraught with uncertainties of the order of 3% to 5%. Kapitzka (1996) cites estimates ranging between 80 and 150 billion. Another such estimate was prepared by Haub (1995), updated in 2002 and 2011; the 2011 figure was approximately 107 billion. Haub characterized this figure as an estimate that required "selecting population sizes for different points from antiquity to the present and applying assumed birth rates to each period".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population#Number_of_humans_who_have_ever_lived

. . . . are not even remotely enough numbers to fulfill the requirements of "a number no man can count" and "grains of sand" on the seashore. A mere 107 billion grains of sand would be, relative to the sand on the seashore, a very dinky sand pile.

 

[Lilstu]

I think its impossible for we fallen humans to accurately pass judgement on people's true spiritual condition. This is especially true if they say they have faith in the Lord Jesus as their Savior and then they make an effort to obey the Lord and follow His teaching --- but then fail, they may fail a lot. There is such a thing as "carnal Christians" or "worldly Christians." I mean true born again Christians who are carnal/worldly. They fail more than they succeed --- but God "works with them" and does not "dump them out."

God "works with them" and does not "dump them out." I think this is wishful thinking not supported by Scripture.
Hebrews 6:4-6 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

If you fail...God does dump you out.

 

[JAGG]

~ Luke 12:32's "little flock"
~ Mt. 7:14's "only a few find it"
~ Mt. 22:14's "many are called but few are chosen" . . . .

So have you removed these verses from your Bible?

No. Just as you have not removed Genesis 26:4 and Genesis 22:15-17 and Hebrews 11:12 and Rev. 7:9-10, from your Bible. We both believe that the Holy Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit, but we disagree on the interpretation of certain Biblical texts.

Another point......
John 16:13 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

Spoken kindly, that is totally irrelevant to the OP and to the arguments in post 8 .. (1) . . (2) . . (3)

He will guide you into all the truth; All the many supposed Christian flocks cannot agree on what is truth. They all have their own version of truth.
So is Jesus a liar? No...the little flock has been guided in all truth by the Holy Spirit and the counterfeit Christians have all invented their own truth.

Spoken kindly, that is also totally irrelevant to the OP and to the arguments in post 8 .. (1) . . (2) . . (3)

You can't just ignore the arguments that you don't agree with, and then proceed to talk about something else, doing that is not a successful refutation of the arguments in the OP and in post 8

And why would you ask me such as question as, "Is Jesus a liar?"

Of course the Lord Jesus is not a liar.

Because we disagree on how best to interpret a class of passages, does not mean that anyone is calling Jesus a lair? How can you ask such a question as that?

The Lord Jesus indirectly inspired these verses: Genesis 26:4 and Genesis 22:15-17 and Hebrews 11:12 and Rev. 7:9-10. You don't agree with my interpretation of these verses. Therefore I could ask you, "Is Jesus a lair? . . . but I NEVER would ask such an irrational question to a fellow Christian merely because we disagreed on the interpretation of the Biblical texts.

 

[JAGG]

^
There will not be billions of people saved, it's just that simple. To say otherwise is to make faith completely obsolete (easy believism).

The clear texts in the Holy Bible contradicts your point of view.

♦ God promised Abraham that his descendants would be as numerous as he stars in the heavens and the grains of sand on the seashore. This means there will be billions and billions of Christians on the Earth, as the millenniums roll along, and before Time ends and The Final State begins.

"I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed
Genesis 26:4


"The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time and said, “I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore."
Genesis 22:15-17

"And so from this one man, [Abraham] and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore
Hebrews 11:12




♦ History ends with the number of Christians so numerous that no human could count them.

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
Rev. 7:9-10

^
Classic case of people favoring one text over another, with no due reconciliation.

~cherry picking~

If that was an argument, and it isn't an argument, but if it was one, it would apply to you just as logically as it would apply to me.

There will not be billions of people saved, it's just that simple. To say otherwise is to make faith completely obsolete (easy believism).

♦ No. Its not "just that simple." You ignore the argument in the OP and the 3 arguments in post 8 and then proceed to issue proclamations. Proclamations are not arguments, they are merely proclamations.

♦ I totally reject "easy believism" in all its forms. ALL the people that will make up the born again Christians that will be a numerous as the grains of sand on the seashore will be regenerated by the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit and they will live a life of obedience to the Lord Jesus in the power of the Holy Spirit working in their lives.

 

[JAGG]

So is Jesus a liar? No...the little flock has been guided in all truth by the Holy Spirit and the counterfeit Christians have all invented their own truth.

Lilstu, regarding your "counterfeit Christians": Is that an ad hominem? Are you suggesting that I am a "counterfeit Christian" merely because I don't agree with you on the interpretation of certain passages of the Holy Bible?

 

[JAGG]

Wonderfully said.

:thumb:

Jamie,

I was surprised at your "wonderfully said" and your thumbs up at this:

So is Jesus a liar? No...the little flock has been guided in all truth by the Holy Spirit and the counterfeit Christians have all invented their own truth.

Jamie, regarding your "wonderfully said" and your thumbs up to Lilstu's "counterfeit Christians", it is clear that you agree with Lilstu's statements. So I ask you is that an ad hominem? Are you agreeing that I am a "counterfeit Christian" merely because I don't agree with Lilstu (and you) on the interpretation of certain passages of the Holy Bible?

Is that how it is around here? When a Christian brother does not agree with you, they become a counterfeit Christian?

 

[Lilstu]

The clear texts in the Holy Bible contradicts your point of view.

♦ God promised Abraham that his descendants would be as numerous as he stars in the heavens and the grains of sand on the seashore. This means there will be billions and billions of Christians on the Earth, as the millenniums roll along, and before Time ends and The Final State begins.

"I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed
Genesis 26:4


"The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time and said, “I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore."
Genesis 22:15-17

"And so from this one man, [Abraham] and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore
Hebrews 11:12




♦ History ends with the number of Christians so numerous that no human could count them.

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
Rev. 7:9-10




If that was an argument, and it isn't an argument, but if it was one, it would apply to you just as logically as it would apply to me.



♦ No. Its not "just that simple." You ignore the argument in the OP and the 3 arguments in post 8 and then proceed to issue proclamations. Proclamations are not arguments, they are merely proclamations.

♦ I totally reject "easy believism" in all its forms. ALL the people that will make up the born again Christians that will be a numerous as the grains of sand on the seashore will be regenerated by the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit and they will live a life of obedience to the Lord Jesus in the power of the Holy Spirit working in their lives.

As numerous as the stars in Heaven may just be a figure of speech to indicate a great many.
after all back then they probably counted their sheep on their fingers.

The God of the Bible promised Abraham that his descendants would be as numerous as the stars in the Heavens. [I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed Genesis 26:4 see also Genesis 15:5, Genesis 22:17, Exodus 32:13]

After Israel was in slavery to Pharaoh, the Exodus from Egypt, and the forty years in the wilderness, Moses declared that God had made Israel as numerous as the stars in Heaven. [The Lord your God has multiplied you, and behold, you are this day like the stars of heaven in number. Deuteronomy 1:10,see also Deuteronomy 10:22]
Moses declared that God’s promise to Abraham that his descendants would be as numerous as the stars had now been fulfilled.

So how many people comprised the nation of Israel? How many stars in the Heavens did the OT writers think there were?

After the Exodus from Egypt, Moses and the leaders took a census of the men over 20 years of age who were fit for war, and there were 603,550 men. [So all the numbered men of the sons of Israel by their fathers’ households, from twenty years old and upward, whoever was able to go out to war in Israel, even all the numbered men were 603,550. Numbers 1:45-46]

Just prior to the entrance into “the promised land,” when Moses declared that God’s promise to make Israel as numerous as the stars had been fulfilled, Moses took another census of the men of Israel, and there were 601, 730. [These are those who were numbered of the sons of Israel, 601,730. Numbers 26:51]

Based on these census figures, scholars have calculated that Israel numbered no more than four million men, women, and children. The writers of the OT believed the stars in the Heaven numbered a paltry four million stars.

So the "little flock' is probably as numerous as 4 million people.

 

[Crucible]

The clear texts in the Holy Bible contradicts your point of view.

♦ God promised Abraham that his descendants would be as numerous as he stars in the heavens and the grains of sand on the seashore. This means there will be billions and billions of Christians on the Earth, as the millenniums roll along, and before Time ends and The Final State begins.

"I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed
Genesis 26:4


"The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time and said, “I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore."
Genesis 22:15-17

"And so from this one man, [Abraham] and he as good as dead, came descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as countless as the sand on the seashore
Hebrews 11:12




♦ History ends with the number of Christians so numerous that no human could count them.

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
Rev. 7:9-10




If that was an argument, and it isn't an argument, but if it was one, it would apply to you just as logically as it would apply to me.



♦ No. Its not "just that simple." You ignore the argument in the OP and the 3 arguments in post 8 and then proceed to issue proclamations. Proclamations are not arguments, they are merely proclamations.

♦ I totally reject "easy believism" in all its forms. ALL the people that will make up the born again Christians that will be a numerous as the grains of sand on the seashore will be regenerated by the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit and they will live a life of obedience to the Lord Jesus in the power of the Holy Spirit working in their lives.

You using things such as the promise to Abraham that he make his descendants as numerous as the stars is all that needs to be gathered from your argument to know that it is false.

Even if you took it literal, there are far more stars and grains of sand then there are humans beings. If anything, you are just declaring 'universalism'.

There is such a thing as CONTEXT, which you flat out ignore. You also ignore the statements of the apostles when they say the gate is narrow and few will enter, and quote Jesus outright saying that many will call his name but he will reject many.

It IS just that simple, hombre- you are WRONG and that's that. Take your 'easy beievism' nonsense somewhere else :wave2:

 

[Lilstu]

Jamie,

I get the strong impression, from reading the New Testament, that the Kingdom Of God/Kingdom of Heaven and the Christian Church are, for all practical purposes, the same thing. For example the Kingdom Parables of the Mustard Seed and the Yeast clearly describe the future of the Christian Church and the texts say this:
“The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three pecks of flour until it was all leavened.” [Matthew 13].

In the Bible Leaven is bad, corruption, no good.
I think that the message of this parable is that the Christian Church will be totally corrupted. We hope the "little flock" is preserved. But the large numbers of saved are just a delusion of a corrupt counterfeit.

 

[jamie]

Do you make a distinction between the:
In one breath the Lord Jesus calls His earthly project the church and in the next breath He calls it the kingdom of heaven.

Therefore I conclude that the Christian Church and the Kingdom Of Heaven are the same thing.

The church of God, the kingdom of God, the family of God are all one and the same.

 

[jamie]

Jamie,
So I ask you is that an ad hominem?

No, it's simply a fact. You must decide if it applies to you.

In Matthew 24:24 Jesus said, "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect."

For the elect not to be deceived they must do their homework and prove all things.

 

[MWood]

You need to re read the scriptures. Nowhere in the scriptures that you quoted did they say that all of Abrahams' descendants would be saved, Just the ones in the white robes. We know for sure that most of Ishmaels descendants wont be saved, nor will most of Esau's.

The ones standing before the Throne in white robes are only a small percentage of all those born from Adam until after the Tribulation. Give these things some thought, and then respond.

 

[jamie]

You need to re read the scriptures. Nowhere in the scriptures that you quoted did they say that all of Abrahams' descendants would be saved, Just the ones in the white robes. We know for sure that most of Ishmaels descendants wont be saved, nor will most of Esau's.

Nah, we don't know that at all.

They will have their opportunity to receive Jesus Christ.

God is not in a rush. Be patient.

 

[beloved57]

[h=2]Will Only A Few Human Beings Be Saved? No.[/h]

Yes, in comparison to how man human beings have lived on this earth.

During the time of noah, 8 people were saved out of possibly 750 million ! Jesus says right before His return it will be as the days of noah Matt 24:37

But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

"I believe there will be more in Heaven than in hell. If anyone asks me why I
think so, I answer, because Christ, in everything, is to "have the preeminence", and I
cannot conceive how He could have the preeminence if there are to be more in the
dominions of Satan than in Paradise. Moreover, I have never read that there is to be in
hell a great multitude, which no man could number." ~C. H. Spurgeon

http://rediscoveringthebible.com/SpurgeonDefenceOfCalvinism.pdf


**

Me, too.

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?113575-OSAS&p=4485652&viewfull=1#post4485652

AMR