And I keep arguing against it because it's not.i keep using it because it's true
Except what God decides to do, or to allow in what is happening. And yes, you're right--that the open theist doesn't know what God is going to do in the future--UNLESS God reveals it, which He does numerous times, sometimes even when it ISN'T the future (like Nineveh and Hezekiah examples).the future, as a thing, does not exist so can't be known according to the open theist.
Yes, just like Nineveh! If they were unrepentant, the punishment would have happened. Only in that case God only told them about the current plan, not the contingency plan. In the Rev 16 case, God may be again telling us about the current plan, assuming no repentance. However, I think it's more likely that He knows the general mindset of man, and knows that it is usually just a remnant that repents and is saved. So how hard is it to say that there are some that will never repent??God is prophesying the punishment and the unrepentance
and open theist say God is guessing that he may or may not punish & they may or may not repent.
I answered these with specific, current-day examples, which you never responded to. Should we repeat???Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial onto the sun. And it was given to him to burn men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were burned with great heat. And they blasphemed the name of God, He having authority over these plagues. And they did not repent in order to give Him glory.
How can you say "no"? What is foreknowledge unless it is knowledge before the event happens?Did God need foreknowledge to know Hezekiah was going to die. no
Did God need foreknowledge to keep Hezekiah alive 15 more years . no
Yes. And God would never lie and say the opposite of what He knows, would He? So if the future is settled, and God "knew" Hezekiah would die of the illness, but he didn't die of the illness, then God either KNEW a falsehood (which I would say is impossible), or God KNEW the truth but told the opposite (which I would say is a lie). Neither of these possibilities are tenable for a good and perfect God. The only remaining choice is to question the premise that the future is settled. Thus, the future is NOT settled.your Hezekiah verses are about whether or not the future is settled
So you're saying God told Hezekiah something that wasn't true on purpose. God lied so that we would know He can do miracles?? Jesus never needed that. I guess I'm starting to see why Clete keeps calling you a liar, if you say God is a liar.4.God knew he was going to extend Hezekiah life and needed Hezekiah and us to know it was a miracle
How do we know if something is knowable? If God says, "I'm going to find out ____", isn't that the same as God saying 1) that ____ IS knowable, and 2) He doesn't already know _____? And when you say He is NOT going to find out _____, are you not calling God a liar??so which is it the open theist says God knows everything that is knowable or God doesn't know what is knowable,
The only other way to read this is to say the text is not telling us the truth. Calvinists do this, but to avoid impeaching God's character, they call it anthropomorphism.
How can a God who knows everything find out something? The only way is if that something comes into existence at a particular point in time. So in Sodom's case, the knowledge God was seeking was a fluid thing--something that was not available ("unknowable"), and then it became knowable. I postulated that the knowledge was something that God had to experience to find it out. And in terms of evil, future evil is not already in existence, else God could judge someone for future evil--but He never does--His future judgments are contingent on the playing out of the future evil. (This is different than God judging for current evil to prevent future evil, as it seems He often does--like the flood of Noah, or the judgment of Canaan by the Israelites.)
How does God know how many hairs are on our heads? [Mat 10:30 CSB] "But even the hairs of your head have all been counted. He counts?? Why would God need to count our hairs, if He knows already? If you think it's merely anthropomorphic language, do you really think Jesus didn't know how to say, God knew (or even "foreknew") how many hairs you would have?
If you call God a liar, and God says He doesn't lie, who is making God in a different image??and either way doesn't know the future but guesses .
the open theist God is created in mans image
Yes...and? How does that apply to the events as they happened? It's all very well to look back with 20/20 hindsight and make some great proclamation about the event. But Abraham was hoping, and God didn't tell him whether He knew, there were less than 10 at the time. It doesn't say one way or the other. And Gen 18:20 can be understood as "the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and the outcry is that their sin is very grave."Gen 18:20 Then the LORD said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great and their sin is very grave,
there were not 10 righteous in sodom ,you know how I know ,sodom was destroyed
The story has the angels going down there planning to stay the night in the square. Knowing now what happened, it seems like that would be a bad idea for them, except we are assured they can handled themselves in an unruly crowd. Lot doesn't know that, but convinces them to stay in his house, because he knows how bad the city is. They are so bad that they won't repent when Lot appeals to them: [Gen 19:7 NKJV] and said, "Please, my brethren, do not do so wickedly!
The angels see two possible things there: 1) that all the people of Sodom were wicked, 2) except Lot and his family. At this point, and not before, they explain to Lot that they are going to destroy the city. I think this is where the decision to actually destroy was made, and it came after they had tested the people of the city and found them to be wicked--without repentance.
[Gen 19:13 NKJV] "For we will destroy this place, because the outcry against them has grown great before the face of the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it."
My reading is by no means the only possible one, but it allows the statements to be taken literally, instead of taken as opposite of what it really says.
As I said, your statement adds nothing to the conversation. If you want to elaborate, we can talk more about it, but until then, your point isn't discussable. Hebrews doesn't say when Abraham believed God could/would raise Isaac from the dead. His statement to Isaac on the way up the mountains suggests Abraham wasn't yet thinking that he would really have to kill Isaac.since Abraham never actually sacrificed his son we only know from what Abraham believed
So if Abraham didn't yet know, how did God know Abraham would be faithful, unless the future is settled. But to use it as an argument for a settled future is circular--and in conflict with the text itself, as Calvin admitted.