Why was God's anger kindled against His own people?

marke

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Was God's destruction of His own people and His wrath towards them something that He planned from the beginning for reasons that are secret with Him? Or was He moved to anger for something they did that He did not want them to do?

Isaiah 5

25 Therefore is the anger of the Lord kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
 

marke

Well-known member
Was God's destruction of His own people and His wrath towards them something that He planned from the beginning for reasons that are secret with Him? Or was He moved to anger for something they did that He did not want them to do?

Isaiah 5

25 Therefore is the anger of the Lord kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.
Did God have buyer's remorse? Having called out the Jews to be His own redeemed people did He lose patience with them and so decide to cast them off in disgust after He found out how they were going to reject Him? (I don't believe that either but, of course, I am still not a Calvinist.)
 

Bradley D

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They let God down!

"For the vineyard of the LORD of Hosts
is the house of Israel,
and the men of Judah
are the plant of His delight.
He looked for justice,
but saw bloodshed;
for righteousness,
but heard a cry of distress."
(Isaiah 5:7)
 

marke

Well-known member
They let God down!

"For the vineyard of the LORD of Hosts
is the house of Israel,
and the men of Judah
are the plant of His delight.
He looked for justice,
but saw bloodshed;
for righteousness,
but heard a cry of distress."
(Isaiah 5:7)
I believe God created all sinners with express instructions they should follow. It is not those who ignorantly fail to follow those instructions that kindle God's wrath, but those who willfully and knowingly reject His word that angers Him and causes Him to cast them away for their rebellion.
 

ffreeloader

Well-known member
God's attitude towards His rebellious people is fully explained in the book of Deuteronomy. Obedience is blessed and disobedience is cursed.
 

marke

Well-known member
God's attitude towards His rebellious people is fully explained in the book of Deuteronomy. Obedience is blessed and disobedience is cursed.
Contrary to Calvinist misunderstanding God deals with sinners appropriately as sinners deal with His word. God does not make sinners obey or disobey but God responds to obedience and disobedience as needed.
 

ttruscott

Active member
Was God's destruction of His own people and His wrath towards them something that He planned from the beginning for reasons that are secret with Him? Or was He moved to anger for something they did that He did not want them to do?
Just as sin proves that we have a free will, that is, HE cannot cause anyone to be a sinner by any means at all, so does HIS anger at us prove our evil is by our free will choice to be evil in HIS sight as it is unjust to be angry at something natural, that is, for being as HE created us.

There can be no guilt or judgement without true culpability and there can be no true guilt without mens rea, the intent to do evil by inner desire rather than for our created nature or by accident.

No amount of compulsion to accept the doublethink that two opposites can be true at the same time can change this...HIS anger proves all sin is started by our free will decision to be sinful and NOT by HIS decree of creation making us sinful at conception as the death of a foetus proves us to be in that death is the wages for sin, not a consequence of life.
 

marke

Well-known member
Just as sin proves that we have a free will, that is, HE cannot cause anyone to be a sinner by any means at all, so does HIS anger at us prove our evil is by our free will choice to be evil in HIS sight as it is unjust to be angry at something natural, that is, for being as HE created us.

There can be no guilt or judgement without true culpability and there can be no true guilt without mens rea, the intent to do evil by inner desire rather than for our created nature or by accident.

No amount of compulsion to accept the doublethink that two opposites can be true at the same time can change this...HIS anger proves all sin is started by our free will decision to be sinful and NOT by HIS decree of creation making us sinful at conception as the death of a foetus proves us to be in that death is the wages for sin, not a consequence of life.
We are born sinners in Adam. Willful sin is the product of our own choices and cannot be blamed on Adam.
 

JudgeRightly

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Ummm. The Bible disagrees with that.

No, it doesn't.

First, Psalm 51:5 is talking about the mother, not David.

Second, Paul says:

I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. - Romans 7:9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:9&version=NKJV

In other words, prior to when Paul sinned and broke the law, he was innocent, and alive.

Third, what sin has a baby in the womb committed that makes the baby a sinner? NONE! There is no law broken, no violation of any kind! It's a baby! The child in the womb is completely innocent! By definition, that makes him or her not a sinner!

The baby in the womb is made in the image of God.
 

marke

Well-known member
No, we are born alive to God, innocent. We don't become sinners until we sin.
Sin is inherited through the seed of Adam, not imparted at some poorly definable point after birth.

Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
 

JudgeRightly

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Sin is inherited through the seed of Adam,

Our sin nature is, yes. But not sin itself.

not imparted at some poorly definable point after birth.

It's called the Age of Accountability, Marke.

It's not poorly definable. It's just different for every human being.

Psalm 58:3
The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

I suggest that you have a very poor understanding of the topic at hand, and are simply cherry picking verses that support your position. For one, Psalms is full of mostly poetry and figurative (iow, "should not be taken woodenly literally") language, and two, all of the verses that have been used against my position so far in this discussion have all been from the Old Testament, prior to the beginning of the Body of Christ in Acts 9, meaning they are from a different dispensation.

I cited Paul, earlier.

He says that prior to encountering the law, he was alive (in other words, before he reached his age of accountability, which includes from the moment of conception to his birth). But when the law came, sin revived and he died (in other words, he reached the age of accountability, and by violating the law God placed in every humans heart, he became separated from God). At that point He needed Christ to save him (just as every non-believer does).

If that isn't a model (Paul is the model for believers in the Body of Christ) of how one becomes a sinner in need of a Savior, then what is?
 

ffreeloader

Well-known member
No, it doesn't.

First, Psalm 51:5 is talking about the mother, not David.

Second, Paul says:

I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. - Romans 7:9 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:9&version=NKJV

In other words, prior to when Paul sinned and broke the law, he was innocent, and alive.

Third, what sin has a baby in the womb committed that makes the baby a sinner? NONE! There is no law broken, no violation of any kind! It's a baby! The child in the womb is completely innocent! By definition, that makes him or her not a sinner!

The baby in the womb is made in the image of God.
1. How did David's mother give her children a sinless nature which she did not possess?

2. Adam lost his sinless nature in the garden at the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So, we are born with a sinful nature at birth according to the laws of heredity.

3. How was it Jesus possessed a sinless nature at birth? How is He different than you and I and every other human being?

4. Why must we be born again? We cannot enter heaven without the spiritual nature given to us at our rebirth. That means we acquire something through faith that we never had before.
 

JudgeRightly

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1. How did David's mother give her children a sinless nature which she did not possess?

I did not say that she gave her children a sinless nature.

The answer to the following two questions should resolve your confusion.

2. Adam lost his sinless nature in the garden at the tree of knowledge of good and evil. So, we are born with a sinful nature at birth according to the laws of heredity.

3. How was it Jesus possessed a sinless nature at birth? How is He different than you and I and every other human being?

The answer to both 2 and 3 is that man's "sin nature" is not passed down through the woman, but through the man. This is the reason Jesus had to be born of a virgin, as any human man's seed contains the corruption.

It's also why Jesus, aside from the fact that He had a mission already, never married and had children, aside from other more serious theological implications....

4. Why must we be born again?

"Born again" is not a term used for Christians in the Bible (despite the Christian Church's misappropriation of the term).

We cannot enter heaven without the spiritual nature given to us at our rebirth.

How about a baby who dies in the womb? They've never heard the gospel or even understood or assented to it, so they die in unbelief and go to hell? No. That's unjust.

That means we acquire something through faith that we never had before.

I follow your reasoning, but since the premise is wrong, your conclusion is wrong.

Man does not get into heaven by being born again.

He gets into heaven by placing his faith and trust in Christ, by dying to the flesh, and being raised through Christ.
 

ffreeloader

Well-known member
I did not say that she gave her children a sinless nature.

The answer to the following two questions should resolve your confusion.



The answer to both 2 and 3 is that man's "sin nature" is not passed down through the woman, but through the man. This is the reason Jesus had to be born of a virgin, as any human man's seed contains the corruption.

It's also why Jesus, aside from the fact that He had a mission already, never married and had children, aside from other more serious theological implications....



"Born again" is not a term used for Christians in the Bible (despite the Christian Church's misappropriation of the term).



How about a baby who dies in the womb? They've never heard the gospel or even understood or assented to it, so they die in unbelief and go to hell? No. That's unjust.



I follow your reasoning, but since the premise is wrong, your conclusion is wrong.

Man does not get into heaven by being born again.

He gets into heaven by placing his faith and trust in Christ, by dying to the flesh, and being raised through Christ.
David's mother gave him the same sinful nature she was given at birth.

Saying born again is not a Christian term doesn't make it so. Entry into heaven is predicated upon it according to God Himself. We do not get to set the parameters of salvation. God sets them and we have zero say in the matter.

Jesus' spiritual nature is different than all other human beings because God the Father is physically His Father. No other human being can make that claim. And we are thus born with a sinful nature because we have two sinful parents.

Your last sentence is the admission that we must be born again by faith. Sin dwells within us through our flesh. That means we are born with a sinful nature as we are creatures with a fleshly nature. Only by being reborn through faith can we obtain a nature that opposes sin.
 

marke

Well-known member
Our sin nature is, yes. But not sin itself.

It's called the Age of Accountability, Marke.

It's not poorly definable. It's just different for every human being.
I believe the accountability that many Christians believe comes with age is actually accountability that comes with enlightenment. Until a sinner is enlightened by the Holy Ghost his sins can be described as sins of ignorance, but if after knowing the truth a sinner sets its heart to reject the truth then that sinner becomes accountable for his own sins.
 

JudgeRightly

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David's mother gave him the same sinful nature she was given at birth.

It wasn't David's mother.

It was his father, just as it was HER father, that he inherited it from.

Saying born again is not a Christian term doesn't make it so.

The only three times the phrase "born again" is used in the New Testament are in John (2 times) and 1 Peter (once). Paul NEVER ONCE uses the term. Paul deals with the Body of Christ, while Peter and John are two of the TWELVE apostles who will sit on TWELVE thrones ruling over the TWELVE tribes of Israel.

Entry into heaven is predicated upon it according to God Himself.

Cite.

We do not get to set the parameters of salvation.

Neither do you.

God sets them and we have zero say in the matter.

Supra.

Jesus' spiritual nature is different than all other human beings because God the Father is physically His Father. No other human being can make that claim. And we are thus born with a sinful nature because we have two sinful parents.


Your last sentence is the admission that we must be born again by faith.

Incorrect.

As Paul says:

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. - Romans 8:9-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans8:9-11&version=NKJV

And:

For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God.I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. - Galatians 2:19-20 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians2:19-20&version=NKJV

It's not "born again."

It's "being raised for Christ to live through you."

HUGE difference.

Sin dwells within us through our flesh. That means we are born with a sinful nature as we are creatures with a fleshly nature.

Correct, yet we are not sinners until we sin.

Only by being reborn through faith can we obtain a nature that opposes sin.

Wrong. There's no "rebirth" in the Body of Christ, only a putting to death of the old man, and putting on the new.
 

JudgeRightly

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I believe

What you believe is irrelevant to the facts.

the accountability that many Christians believe comes with age

You clearly don't understand what is meant by "age of accountability."

I recommend reading the article I linked to you.

is actually accountability that comes with enlightenment. Until a sinner is enlightened by the Holy Ghost his sins can be described as sins of ignorance, but if after knowing the truth a sinner sets its heart to reject the truth then that sinner becomes accountable for his own sins.

Supra.

Here's the link again:

kgov.com/age-of-accountability
 

ttruscott

Active member
We are born sinners in Adam. Willful sin is the product of our own choices and cannot be blamed on Adam.
Sin is enslaving. A sinner cannot seek or do righteousness. Being born as sinners as a euphemism for being created in Adam as a sinner denies then making a free will choice to be a sinner after birth sometime later in our life, and the cognitive dissonance this creates inlight of HIS attributes cannot be reconciled by calling the doublethink necessary for the reconciliation a mystery.

There is no mystery - GOD cannot have created anyone with any sinfulness by any means or system of creation at all. Period. This is the meaning of holiness and trying to reconcile the meaning of holiness with the egregious idea that HE has HIS bride (but not Satan) to be conceived, that is created, in sin by their connection to Adam rather than by their free will decision to rebel against HIM should be recognized as a blasphemy.

Pre-Conception Existence theology (PCE) contends that no one is guilty of Adam's sin but Adam and that it is a blasphemy to believe that the GOD who is love would create anyone, let alone HIS chosen Bride, as disgustingly corrupt sinners by 1. making them human in Adam and 2. by forcing us (without our choice) to inherit that something sinful that keeps us out of heaven until we are redeemed and repentant.

We are conceived, born, sinners because we existed before our conceptions and by our free will we chose to be sinful before we were sown, planed, not created (the devil cannot create) into this world as per Matt 13:36-39. Those people who chose to never sin but to be holy in HIS sight are never sown into mankind.
 
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