Why was God's anger kindled against His own people?

Derf

Well-known member
What is the penalty for sin? Death. What will happen to every person? Death (Enoch and Elijah might be deferred). Thus every person is born with a sentence of death that has to be set aside in some way—except Jesus. He is also the only one after Adam and Eve without a human father. Therefore it seems the sentence of death comes through the father.

What is a sin nature? A propensity to sin. But if death comes through the father, does the propensity to sin also? Or does it come from, say, the fear of death?
Hebrews 2:15 (KJV) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Very young children don’t normally display as much fear of death—maybe none, until later, although it might be fairly early, shown in selfish fights over toys, for instance.

God’s people were told what God wanted of them, and they agreed, then walked away from His instructions, probably because they feared death, and didn’t trust God to save them from it.
 

marke

Well-known member
What is the penalty for sin? Death. What will happen to every person? Death (Enoch and Elijah might be deferred). Thus every person is born with a sentence of death that has to be set aside in some way—except Jesus. He is also the only one after Adam and Eve without a human father. Therefore it seems the sentence of death comes through the father.

What is a sin nature? A propensity to sin. But if death comes through the father, does the propensity to sin also? Or does it come from, say, the fear of death?
Hebrews 2:15 (KJV) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Very young children don’t normally display as much fear of death—maybe none, until later, although it might be fairly early, shown in selfish fights over toys, for instance.

God’s people were told what God wanted of them, and they agreed, then walked away from His instructions, probably because they feared death, and didn’t trust God to save them from it.
Why did Jesus say some sinners who do not know the Lord do not have sin?

John 15

21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.

23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.

24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Why did Jesus say some sinners who do not know the Lord do not have sin?

John 15

21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me.

22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.

23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.

24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.
Because He was focusing on the more important sin of rejecting the Holy Spirit’s prompting, which is <eventually> unforgivable.
 

ttruscott

Active member
Why did Jesus say some sinners who do not know the Lord do not have sin?
To interpret this as meaning they are without any sin is too contrary to too many other verses that indicate that we are sinful at our conception etc, so it must mean something else.

Perhaps it is referring to overt, obvious sin, that people who are sinners who are living ordinary lives and accepted as ordinarily righteous, can be regarded as reprobate when they take a stand against Him.

Not having sin would refer to their status among men, not their status with GOD.
 

marke

Well-known member
To interpret this as meaning they are without any sin is too contrary to too many other verses that indicate that we are sinful at our conception etc, so it must mean something else.

Perhaps it is referring to overt, obvious sin, that people who are sinners who are living ordinary lives and accepted as ordinarily righteous, can be regarded as reprobate when they take a stand against Him.

Not having sin would refer to their status among men, not their status with GOD.
I believe Jesus is referring to those who hard-heartedly reject the truth after having been enlightened by the Holy Spirit, thus becoming responsible for their own sins after rejecting God's provision for forgiveness. The contrast between willful sins and sins of ignorance is given in Mark 3.

28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
 

ffreeloader

Well-known member
What is the penalty for sin? Death. What will happen to every person? Death (Enoch and Elijah might be deferred). Thus every person is born with a sentence of death that has to be set aside in some way—except Jesus. He is also the only one after Adam and Eve without a human father. Therefore it seems the sentence of death comes through the father.

What is a sin nature? A propensity to sin. But if death comes through the father, does the propensity to sin also? Or does it come from, say, the fear of death?
Hebrews 2:15 (KJV) And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Very young children don’t normally display as much fear of death—maybe none, until later, although it might be fairly early, shown in selfish fights over toys, for instance.

God’s people were told what God wanted of them, and they agreed, then walked away from His instructions, probably because they feared death, and didn’t trust God to save them from it.
That is taught no where in scripture.

The propensity to sin comes from our fallen nature. Adam and Eve were not born sinful. They received it by their obeisance to Satan. Read the story of the fall.
 

Derf

Well-known member
That is taught no where in scripture.
Well, it’s at least taught in the scripture I cited.
The propensity to sin comes from our fallen nature. Adam and Eve were not born sinful. They received it by their obeisance to Satan. Read the story of the fall.
I don’t think I said anything in my post that is contradictory to that. Maybe I didn’t say it very clearly.

Maybe it would help if I equated “propensity to sin” with “fallen nature”.

And “God’s people” with the Israelites that came out of Egypt. Does that help any?
 

Derf

Well-known member
I believe Jesus is referring to those who hard-heartedly reject the truth after having been enlightened by the Holy Spirit, thus becoming responsible for their own sins after rejecting God's provision for forgiveness. The contrast between willful sins and sins of ignorance is given in Mark 3.

28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
But if they are responsible for their own sins, they must not have been forgiven of them. Yet vs 28 says all sins shall be forgiven, with vs 29 the only caveat.
 
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