Why men won't marry you

[BOLCATS]

Stereotyping teens is insulting. It certainly is unfair to the exceptional.

Both you and I would agree that not all older people are really mature and you've made a point of putting me on a level with 15 year olds in your posts to me.

So are you going to suggest that I shouldn't be married with children, or are you going to now assert that there are no teens at 15 who could match me in qualification for marriage?

You must spread some reputation around before giving it to 1peacemaker again.

 

[BOLCATS]

I know this isn't addressed to me, but just to keep my point floating...

There are no exceptions to the biological facts in play, only those lucky enough to survive them. Three in ten.


You don't have to use good judgment if you're older and many don't, but they have everything they need (absent physiological impairment--and there are exceptions to nearly any rule) to manage it and the fault is their own if they don't. The young people we're speaking of don't have that capacity. It isn't their fault.

But you're in your thirties now and encouraging that would indeed be yours as you have the facts and are old enough to know better.

Do you understand the meaning that peacemaker is giving the word exceptional here? She isn't talking about biology at all. Why do you insert it here as if she is?

 

[1PeaceMaker]

I know this isn't addressed to me, but just to keep my point floating...

I'm more interested in your opinions of what we brought to you personally, but I can respond to this also.

There are no exceptions to the biological facts in play, only those lucky enough to survive them. Three in ten.

Why do you keep giving the credit to luck and the like? There is no luck or God of luck. There is God who oversees all.

What young people need is good character. Good judgment comes with good character. Good marriages come with good character. That's the line I draw between adults ready for marriage and those who are not.

You don't have to use good judgment if you're older and many don't

Those with the worst judgment don't make God their counselor, right?

but they have everything they need

Unrighteous people don't.

(absent physiological impairment--and there are exceptions to nearly any rule) to manage it and the fault is their own if they don't.

They only have good judgment in marriage if they defer to God.

The young people we're speaking of don't have that capacity. It isn't their fault.

God can give them good judgment. God does that for them when they let Him.

But you're in your thirties now and encouraging that would indeed be yours as you have the facts and are old enough to know better.

Would you rephrase that?

 

[Rusha]

Stereotyping teens is insulting.

Only if the comments are negative. My comments were factual, not negative.

It certainly is unfair to the exceptional.

A word that you brought into this ... I didn't.

Both you and I would agree that not all older people are really mature

I would agree that not all older people have good character. However, they are physically mature and have been around long enough to gain maturity. THAT is the difference. I do not hold children and teens to the same standard. They have time to learn.

and you've made a point of putting me on a level with 15 year olds in your posts to me.

Yes, your reasoning and "I know everything", finger in the ears attitude in which you converse would be at the same level.

So are you going to suggest that I shouldn't be married with children, or are you going to now assert that there are no teens at 15 who could match me in qualification for marriage?

I am going to say I couldn't care less about your marriage and teens should not be marrying.

However, since you wish to insert yourself into my statements, please show where I stated "teens who are close to their twenties are too young and immature to marry".

 

[Town Heretic]

I'm more interested in your opinions of what we brought to you personally, but I can respond to this also.

Well, you didn't answer my last direct...that said, I'd rather not make this about either of you except where it dovetails back into the point, which remains empirically demonstrated and unrefuted reality concerning choices and biological impairment and how that evidences in the numbers.

Why do you keep giving the credit to luck and the like?

Because all those younger people began with the same problem in terms of impairment. It isn't about being smarter or more moral. It's about how we process information. Before around the mid twenties that mostly gets done by the part of the brain that isn't suited to making the wisest judgments, has poorer impulse control and thinks in more emotional terms.

The old, "I fall upon the thorns of life, I bleed" variety, again. Or, "I need" to put another point on it.

What young people need is good character.

Everyone should desire it...To me this is where you veer into the lamentable though in how you apply that sentiment. It's a sort of metaphysical caste system, judging and reducing the majority who fail as lesser in some way when there's just no data in support of that.

...Those with the worst judgment don't make God their counselor, right?

Wouldn't that mean people are saved because they're wiser, better? If my neighbor doesn't believe he simply didn't spend his time diligently developing his character so that he could one day be saved.

God can give them good judgment. God does that for them when they let Him.

So you assert that most people who get married, seventy percent of your fellows, just didn't involve God?

People who love God have been swindled by people who only claimed to. Loving, trusting people who were taken advantage of. It happens in business. It happens in marriage.

And you muddled my response about the young/old and judgment. Because what I was speaking to is mechanism. The young are impaired. Faith doesn't alter that. And the mid twenties on are in a position to use a working calculator the young simply can't possess.

Would you rephrase that?

Sure. You're old enough to know better than to advise young people to marry, given the hard empirical data and the fact that your machinery is now unimpaired.

 

[patrick jane]

every attractive single Christian woman I meet, looks EXACTLY like my first wife -






I've never been married -

 

[Arthur Brain]

You don't know how this started, do you? I made a simple claim, namely that God gave divorce for hard heartedness, so that's it's proper use. That's what it's there for, and it's hard to divorce without a hard heart being involved - in other words - the pain of separation would be prohibitive to two tenderhearted people.

CM tried to argue that it doesn't take a hard heart and used an abused woman as an example. In fact, he dodged my question "is murder a hard-hearted act" by answering with this example, not a yes or no. He's cornered.

He knows that this woman in the abuse scenario is married to a hard hearted person so he loses if she divorces. (that would mean his hard heart was the cause of the divorce, right?) So now he puts a gun in her hand and tells me she can be selectively hard-hearted and murder out of love on one hand with hate in the other.

It's just a weird move. He's already lost the mini-debate pages ago.

The abused woman could do many things like leave at the start of the abuse. Women who hang around enabling the abuse of themselves and their children for years on end would typically have to have a hard heart.

Murder is a hard hearted act. Self-defense is in another category. She doesn't have to be hard-hearted to defend herself or leave him.

If you honestly think that it's as easy for every woman to up sticks and move from abuse then your naivety is just showing again. This habit you have of declaring yourself the 'winner' of exchanges is far from impressive either.

 

[Arthur Brain]

So you say all this to strangers/newbs without proving your claim?

Yes, he was a man with suicidal depression. There, I said it. And that's why I defended him from slander.

I saw him try to keep up with his friends and debates on here by lurking on threads we participated in for many months and that's not stalking, that's a perfectly acceptable behavior.

However, on the threads I debated, A4T kept hating on him when he didn't post. It was weird. She was not letting anything go.

I do when a "newb" shows a baffling interest in a particular individual and supposedly knows that everyone who had issues with Dolo/Volt were simply making stuff up, instead of perhaps giving credence to at least both sides of the argument. Once again your naivety is showing and unless you want us all to divulge our PM's for your scrutiny then it should be pretty obvious that none of us are inventing any of this up - not to mention the threads where Dolo was sniping away etc that are on record.

FTR I don't wish the guy any harm, but he needs help if he's still on that same course.

 

[Arthur Brain]

It's no trade secret A4T wouldn't even let him lurk on MY threads without taunting him.

It's no secret to me or God that some are supporting lies about BOLCATS - because he's not the man some claim he is.

We all know how Voltaire would be reacting right now. Not as calmly, that's for sure. So unless he borrowed someone else's psyche or marriage is way more potent than I ever dreamed it was.... (I hope he's married by now!) it clearly aint the same man.

Oh, he sure reacted calmly with his diatribe about how Dolo was 'badly treated' didn't he? Even though he didn't know the guy? :freak:

Wake up. People can come in with a new identity and affiliation and if necessity requires it they would have to tone their act down if they didn't want to be discovered as the person who'd flamed out.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

If you honestly think that it's as easy for every woman to up sticks and move from abuse then your naivety is just showing again. This habit you have of declaring yourself the 'winner' of exchanges is far from impressive either.

Just because it's not easy, laziness doesn't make it an excuse to stay.

When you have children or are pregnant, if you don't have a hard heart towards them you won't put them in the path of abuse, even if you have to flee down a trail of tears.

As far as my "naivity" showing, both my grandmothers lived with abusive men (more than once, both of them), my mother did also more than once, and I even counseled a friend who had to leave an abusive husband. So yes, I do know. Actually, I have multiple friends who had to leave abusers and I didn't discourage it, I understood it and encouraged it.

Most abusive husbands don't murder or get murdered. They get divorced when the woman realizes she's disrespected herself enough, or the man grows up and stops it. That requires replacement of his hard heart with a soft fleshy heart with the law written on it.

My background being what it was, and my mother's advice being what it was, I already had decided that any man who would show a nasty temper, raise a hand to me or act violent towards others during courtship would be swiftly dumped. That's respecting God and my temple of the Holy Spirit. And not having a hard heart towards the children of my marriage.

But as God would have it, I found a gentle peacemaker of a soul. That's the only way a woman should settle.

If she makes God her counsel, would she get an abuser?

 

[1PeaceMaker]

I do when a "newb" shows a baffling interest in a particular individual and supposedly knows that everyone who had issues with Dolo/Volt were simply making stuff up

You make it sound like you investigated the guy and he failed.

Actually, you missed some important exchanges that would reveal your error. I suggest you check BOLCATS posting history, I have not done so I just believe what my husband told me about their exchanges.

BOL heard about Dolo and then indignantly asked my husband why he'd be friends with a pedo. Does that sound like Dolo to you? Why would he take someone else's word about himself and disrespect/smear himself?

Once again your naivety is showing and unless you want us all to divulge our PM's for your scrutiny then it should be pretty obvious that none of us are inventing any of this up - not to mention the threads where Dolo was sniping away etc that are on record.

Did you participate on the all the threads that Dolo did? Do you know how some local harpies twist people's words to taunt them? Dolo didn't belong here because he couldn't take it.

I am partially responsible for helping him leave, since I couldn't stand seeing him damage himself and be embarrassed by getting all stressed and ranting out on the forums. I worried that if he had a hidden heart condition or aneurism it could kill him to do that every day. That's my role in the story.

FTR I don't wish the guy any harm, but he needs help if he's still on that same course.

I was convinced he left. I would think by now you could see the difference in the writing style. Wherever Dolo is, I pray he's not gone because a suicide attempt worked but because a wife and children are keeping him busy.

Oh, he sure reacted calmly with his diatribe about how Dolo was 'badly treated' didn't he? Even though he didn't know the guy? :freak:

Many people are disgusted when they run across certain stale attitudes.

Wake up. People can come in with a new identity and affiliation and if necessity requires it they would have to tone their act down if they didn't want to be discovered as the person who'd flamed out.

So he just magically no longer has a flame-out personality? Hmmm. He never could do that before. If he could have pulled it off for even one month (while actively posting) I might have been happy to see him stay at TOL.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

Because all those younger people began with the same problem in terms of impairment.

What did Paul tell Timothy regarding such ideas?

12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

It isn't about being smarter or more moral.

So you don't believe morality has an effect on a marriage?

It's about how we process information. Before around the mid twenties that mostly gets done by the part of the brain that isn't suited to making the wisest judgments, has poorer impulse control and thinks in more emotional terms.

So then younger people would not be able to take God into their counsel or make wise choices?

Everyone should desire it...To me this is where you veer into the lamentable though in how you apply that sentiment.

Does the reality of it affect the lifestyle? Doesn't it help people make better life choices?

It's a sort of metaphysical caste system, judging and reducing the majority who fail as lesser in some way when there's just no data in support of that.

Fools are lesser in some way when it comes to marriage, wouldn't you say?

Wouldn't that mean people are saved because they're wiser, better?

Don't you mean that when they accept God and believe they become wiser because of it? After that point they can use God's counsel which is the whole advantage.

If my neighbor doesn't believe he simply didn't spend his time diligently developing his character so that he could one day be saved.

No, if your neighbor did not believe, then he could not spend time developing the character needed for a secure marriage.

So you assert that most people who get married, seventy percent of your fellows, just didn't involve God?

Are you saying that you think the majority of youth are seriously committed to God? I thought it was a narrow way with few that find it, especially when so many are busy being fools sowing wild oats at first.

People who love God have been swindled by people who only claimed to.

Do they blame God or claim God would not have helped them choose more wisely if they prayed for it in faith? Or do they admit to letting infatuation drive their choice?

Loving, trusting people who were taken advantage of. It happens in business. It happens in marriage.

Business is a more casual relationship, but the Bible warns against joining finances with fools. Follow the Bible and don't be swindled. Use God as your counsel.

And you muddled my response about the young/old and judgment. Because what I was speaking to is mechanism. The young are impaired. Faith doesn't alter that. And the mid twenties on are in a position to use a working calculator the young simply can't possess.

Faith is not a powerless abstract. Faith does alter the mechanism you speak of, which you assume is the causation to your correlations with bad choices. The only calculator for love you need is God. I'm sorry if that sounds extreme to you, but it really does work, sometimes miraculously well.

Sure. You're old enough to know better than to advise young people to marry, given the hard empirical data and the fact that your machinery is now unimpaired.

My suspect "machinery" was bypassed by the counsel of God and His servants. The Bible tells us that a multitude of counselors offers safety.

Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety. Proverbs 11:14

 

[Town Heretic]

What did Paul tell Timothy regarding such ideas?

Paul didn't tell Timothy anything about a biology he didn't understand.

So you don't believe morality has an effect on a marriage?

Nothing in "It isn't about being smarter or more moral" should lead you to that conclusion.

So then younger people would not be able to take God into their counsel or make wise choices?

Supra. A young person should take the counsel of his or her elders in the Body and discuss with them how they are reading scripture or feel they are being led. Because the mechanism of youth is faulty.

Does the reality of it affect the lifestyle? Doesn't it help people make better life choices?

Of course. Now tell me, are Christians free from error?

Fools are lesser in some way when it comes to marriage, wouldn't you say?

I'd say you aren't the judge of those people you don't know and your response to them, to my reading, is hard hearted, amounts to nothing more than calling seven in ten fools who obviously didn't seek the counsel of God. I think it's regrettable, as caste system choices go and I'm counselling against it.

Don't you mean that when they accept God and believe they become wiser because of it? After that point they can use God's counsel which is the whole advantage.

I think our walk impacts us, changes us as we draw closer. So do you or don't you believe that we find salvation because we are better in some way than the fellow who doesn't or hasn't yet? The answer to that question should inform you.

...Are you saying that you think the majority of youth are seriously committed to God?

I'd say that it's reasonable to speculate that more than three in ten might be. And all we need is one to give you pause. One who is and who finds herself in that troubled state.

Are you suggesting there isn't the one?

I thought it was a narrow way with few that find it, especially when so many are busy being fools sowing wild oats at first.

If everyone who professes Christianity finds heaven it will be, looking at the world, at the Hindu and atheist and Muslim, etc., passing through a narrow gate. One of the most abused and, I think, misunderstood bits of scripture in the Bible.

...Business is a more casual relationship, but the Bible warns against joining finances with fools. Follow the Bible and don't be swindled. Use God as your counsel.

You're playing fast and loose here. I noted more than business. I think you avoid what you can't answer in principle. Good people are deceived. Churches are sometimes swindled by pastors.

You know it happens and you step around it. You should ask yourself why that is.

Faith is not a powerless abstract.

Agreed. It should be a profound and transformative experience. It shouldn't be confused with perfect understanding though.

Faith does alter the mechanism you speak of, which you assume is the causation to your correlations with bad choices.

Show me a single study that evidences faith in God causes the prefrontal cortex to grow at a different rate than it does in the heathen. Rather, God gives us elders and the counsel of them when we are young and more likely to make honest, sincere mistakes. And even with our full faculties we are called together, in part I suspect for that continuing wider perspective.

The only calculator for love you need is God.

God gave you the calculator in your head. It's designed to function beautifully, but by seasons. A child's mind is well suited for trust and a developing understanding of love. It isn't suited for making serious, life altering and long decisions, by design.

The Bible tells us that a multitude of counselors offers safety.

I've been arguing for counsel, not against it.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

Paul didn't tell Timothy anything about a biology he didn't understand.

Do you think the attributes Paul associated with Timothy preclude running around making decisions from poor judgment that would be a bad example to believers?

Nothing in "It isn't about being smarter or more moral" should lead you to that conclusion.

Why not? You are suggesting on the one hand that morality helps marriages succeed, yet not giving it credit when it applies to people under 25. Don't you think moral/righteous participants in marriage increase the chance of success?

Supra. A young person should take the counsel of his or her elders in the Body and discuss with them how they are reading scripture or feel they are being led. Because the mechanism of youth is faulty.

So they "feel" being led. And the mechanism for knowing it's God leading is faulty? That's like saying those under 25 should let elders interpret scripture and be the filter of the Holy Spirit for them, rather than letting the Spirit guide them directly.

Of course. Now tell me, are Christians free from error?

You assume all Christians are on the narrow way. But they have to have righteousness that exceeds that of the Pharisees and Sadducees to be in the kingdom (which is not with outward observation, but within you).

Hypocritical Christians can be deceived. Was Peter deceived by Ananias and Sapphira?

I'd say you aren't the judge of those people you don't know and your response to them, to my reading, is hard hearted, amounts to nothing more than calling seven in ten fools who obviously didn't seek the counsel of God.

"And they shall seek me and find me, when they shall search for me with all their hearts..."

Do you believe that? Do you believe if you ask for what is good you get what you ask for? Even evil fathers don't hand out stones instead of bread.

When one of my grandmothers was praying for marriage, she focused on asking for a "dollhouse" and a nice car. She got both those things, along with 4 adorable kids and an abusive husband.

I didn't pray for fancy houses and cars. I prayed for a godly man, and the perfect one for me. I also got what I asked for and better. I'm glad I wasn't focusing on the wrong values a the time.

I think it's regrettable, as caste system choices go and I'm counselling against it.

You've got a caste system based on arbitrary numbers as you see them (no to marriage under 25).

I think our walk impacts us, changes us as we draw closer. So do you or don't you believe that we find salvation because we are better in some way than the fellow who doesn't or hasn't yet? The answer to that question should inform you.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Do you believe that the person who seeks and finds God early is wiser than the person who waits or never seeks at all? I do, and that answer does inform me.

I'd say that it's reasonable to speculate that more than three in ten might be. And all we need is one to give you pause. One who is and who finds herself in that troubled state.

Do you think that Isaac was kept out of the spouse picking because of his age or because there was a man of wisdom who was more trusted in those matters that he and his father were prepared to trust?

Are you suggesting there isn't the one?

The one who what? Prays from age 14 -17 for the perfect husband and also prays to be the perfect wife for him... and then doesn't find him while seeking God and looking for signs, but is instead tricked into the wrong relationship? No.

Do I think some good women might forget to check with God? They are foolish, even if innocent. If their heart is pure, they will do the best they can. Might convert their husband and could pull a nose-diving marriage up easier than an unbeliever.

But if he's already pure, she won't have to. And she won't have to worry about divorce if he's godly.

If everyone who professes Christianity finds heaven it will be, looking at the world, at the Hindu and atheist and Muslim, etc., passing through a narrow gate. One of the most abused and, I think, misunderstood bits of scripture in the Bible.

You have a problem. Not all who say "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom, isn't that what Jesus said?

You're playing fast and loose here. I noted more than business. I think you avoid what you can't answer in principle. Good people are deceived. Churches are sometimes swindled by pastors.

Peter was informed by the Holy Spirit and wasn't swindled by the two who tried to fool him.

Agreed. It should be a profound and transformative experience. It shouldn't be confused with perfect understanding though.

Faith means God can answer our prayers. I prayed for over 3 years straight, daily, for my husband before I even met him. Morning and night, or any other time I thought to.

Show me a single study that evidences faith in God causes the prefrontal cortex to grow at a different rate than it does in the heathen.

You think the prefrontal cortex is the fount of wisdom. I think that shows the limits of yours.

Consider that there are many impossible things about the brain we never knew still being uncovered. A woman without her cerebellum, for example, was recently discovered, walking and talking. They used to believe that was incompatible with life itself.

Rather, God gives us elders and the counsel of them when we are young and more likely to make honest, sincere mistakes. And even with our full faculties we are called together, in part I suspect for that continuing wider perspective.

We all need God for wisdom. You are only making the point that young people might need God more, or that more of them don't use God's wisdom tools.

God gave you the calculator in your head. It's designed to function beautifully, but by seasons. A child's mind is well suited for trust and a developing understanding of love. It isn't suited for making serious, life altering and long decisions, by design.

Are you sure you aren't speaking from bias or preconceptions? Especially considering you are labeling under-25s here as children, it seems.

 

[Town Heretic]

Do you think the attributes Paul associated with Timothy preclude running around making decisions from poor judgment that would be a bad example to believers?

Why not? You are suggesting on the one hand that morality helps marriages succeed, yet not giving it credit when it applies to people under 25. Don't you think moral/righteous participants in marriage increase the chance of success?

You're repackaging a thing answered. See: elders. Have you looked at any of the divorce numbers within Christian families? Now I have seen a study somewhere that indicated a little over half the marriages identifying as happy had God at the center of it. I find that unsurprising. But you're still talking about two individuals with free will and imperfection.

So they "feel" being led. And the mechanism for knowing it's God leading is faulty? That's like saying those under 25 should let elders interpret scripture and be the filter of the Holy Spirit for them, rather than letting the Spirit guide them directly.

I think there's a reason for elders and a responsibility that comes with understanding you're essentially not in your entire right mind.

You assume all Christians are on the narrow way.

No, I just don't assume that only those who agree with me are. So when anyone brings that up to self justify I note that their context isn't necessarily THE context, that you can read that scripture and understand most, even all of professing Christendom could walk through that gate without altering the truth of the passage.

Hypocritical Christians can be deceived. Was Peter deceived by Ananias and Sapphira?

Was Peter deceived just before Christ rebuked him?

"And they shall seek me and find me, when they shall search for me with all their hearts..."

Of course.

Do you believe that? Do you believe if you ask for what is good you get what you ask for? Even evil fathers don't hand out stones instead of bread.

Of course I do, but you can't ask God to control another human being for you and every human being is capable of error. Or, you should probably address my point about Christian congregations being taken advantage of in their love and trust by a smiling wolf.

I didn't pray for fancy houses and cars. I prayed for a godly man, and the perfect one for me. I also got what I asked for and better. I'm glad I wasn't focusing on the wrong values a the time.

So those who fail must be?

You've got a caste system based on arbitrary numbers as you see them (no to marriage under 25).

No, it isn't arbitrary and doesn't function to separate among an otherwise similar set of people. And it isn't about how I see it. It's about an empirically verifiable fact that exists with or without my or your agreement and it ends for everyone at about the same age.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Do you believe that the person who seeks and finds God early is wiser than the person who waits or never seeks at all? I do, and that answer does inform me.

I think you're reading something different into that. Loving and recognizing God and His authority is wise. It is, in the life of a Christian the first truly meaningful and wise choice. It isn't a magical transformation. It won't impact your IQ or alter your biology, by way of distinguishing.

Do you think that Isaac was kept out of the spouse picking because of his age or because there was a man of wisdom who was more trusted in those matters that he and his father were prepared to trust?

I don't know the answer to that off hand. But I do know the answer to this point and I'm doing my best to relate it to you.

The one who what? Prays from age 14 -17 for the perfect husband and also prays to be the perfect wife for him... and then doesn't find him while seeking God and looking for signs, but is instead tricked into the wrong relationship? No.

Praying for perfection is itself a sign of an immature mind, Peace. There's no such thing. There are no perfect people, only people more or less suited. And praying once or for three years isn't the issue. Just as some parishioners are misled by their pastor so some women can be misled by their husbands...and sometimes a man who isn't doing that can become a man who is and does. Life and people are complicated and willful.

Do I think some good women might forget to check with God? They are foolish, even if innocent. If their heart is pure, they will do the best they can. Might convert their husband and could pull a nose-diving marriage up easier than an unbeliever.

Another version of "They got what they had coming to them."

You have a problem. Not all who say "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom, isn't that what Jesus said?

It is, but I think you give it the most uncharitable reading imaginable. Some of the wolves standing in the pulpits said that. They deceived others.

Peter was informed by the Holy Spirit and wasn't swindled by the two who tried to fool him.

Peter was rebuked by Christ when he thought he was speaking a good and later denied Christ three times.

Faith means God can answer our prayers. I prayed for over 3 years straight, daily, for my husband before I even met him. Morning and night, or any other time I thought to.

I believe in prayer and what it can teach us. I think you're missing one of the lessons in this particular admission. And I believe God helped two people who wanted a particular happiness find it. May it last you the rest of your lives and may they be happy.

You think the prefrontal cortex is the fount of wisdom.

Rather, I know it is the demonstrated part of the brain God gave us where sound judgment arises.

I think that shows the limits of yours.

I have all sorts of limitations. It comes with the suit.

Consider that there are many impossible things about the brain we never knew still being uncovered. A woman without her cerebellum, for example, was recently discovered, walking and talking. They used to believe that was incompatible with life itself.

Which doesn't negate that we've demonstrated a thing about the brain we can know and how that lines up with judgments. But we always knew it. We attributed it to the experiential limitations of the young prior and there was certainly an element of that, but now we understand more. I'm sure there's a great deal left for us to discover, but knowing more will only give additional insight into an observable limitation, not negate it.

We all need God for wisdom. You are only making the point that young people might need God more, or that more of them don't use God's wisdom tools.

No, I'm suggesting that God made us in such a way that we aren't meant or fit to make a decision at the age you did. That as a rule it's contrary to our design.

Are you sure you aren't speaking from bias or preconceptions? Especially considering you are labeling under-25s here as children, it seems.

In one sense they are, though I was thinking more of why our brains develop along their lines and what the benefit could be. I think teenagers and to a lesser but demonstrable degree those in their early twenties are still in the throes of childhood, transitioning to a maturity wherein God has established a different set of challenges and abilities. One of those abilities is the capacity for sound and reliable reason.

I think we should trust the design and plan accordingly.

 

[bybee]

I continually wonder which parallel universe she dwells in?
Her responses are at best tangential to the question or subject at hand.
It is a technique used by people who do not listen!

 

[Rusha]

I continually wonder which parallel universe she dwells in?
Her responses are at best tangential to the question or subject at hand.
It is a technique used by people who do not listen!

Indeed it is ...

 

[BOLCATS]

As the harpie world turns

 

[1PeaceMaker]

You're repackaging a thing answered. See: elders.

That catch all doesn't explain why Paul was addressing an ageist attitude amongst those young Timothy, despising the youth of the young leader, who was exemplary.

Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child, a child is one who thinks like a child and acts like a child, reasons like a child, etc. Timothy was no child, having put away childish things. He was a leader and example in the faith, but some took him for granted unfairly because of his age.

Have you looked at any of the divorce numbers within Christian families?

I've heard the numbers are dismal and don't blame our Father. When God isn't obeyed we reap the fruits of disobedience. Divorce was required because of hard hearts, says God, so it's another fruit of disobedience to God.

So a lot of Christians don't walk the walk. Why would I think otherwise?

Now I have seen a study somewhere that indicated a little over half the marriages identifying as happy had God at the center of it. I find that unsurprising. But you're still talking about two individuals with free will and imperfection.

Do you think that all those claiming to make God the center of their marriage really do? Do you think the majority do?

I think there's a reason for elders and a responsibility that comes with understanding you're essentially not in your entire right mind.

Based on what you said, not only should I not have married, I was unfit to switch religions, which I did twice before hitting 25. But like Paul said, there is one mediator. 1Timothy 2:5

No, I just don't assume that only those who agree with me are.

Neither did I, so why did you say that?

So when anyone brings that up to self justify

What does that have to do with self justification? I never said they needed to believe exactly as I do, but the accepting the gospel is non-negotiable. There are many false teachers and false christs in the world, are there not?

I note that their context isn't necessarily THE context, that you can read that scripture and understand most, even all of professing Christendom could walk through that gate without altering the truth of the passage.

But that's if you only consider the one scripture in isolation.

Was Peter deceived just before Christ rebuked him?

Before his conversion? Yes.

He was also older than 25, I'd reckon. Are you trying to prove that older people get deceived just like the younger set you argue against getting married?

And do you see the difference between a fleeting moment of deception and a faith-based, reasonable choice for marriage made with great deliberation and much prayer?

Of course I do, but you can't ask God to control another human being for you and

When the wife of Isaac was chosen, the question wasn't whether God could control her and prevent her from making simple errors. She was chosen for good character. God knew she would be a faithful wife, didn't He? Do you give God credit for helping it be a good choice?

every human being is capable of error. Or, you should probably address my point about Christian congregations being taken advantage of in their love and trust by a smiling wolf.

I prayed I would not be taken advantage of. That's not an unworthy prayer, so what's the problem? Oh, I know, a lack of faith. That would do it. You can't expect results without faith. God gave me a good man based on my faith in His ability to help me choose.

So those who fail must be?

Either that or God doesn't help me and I was just a perceptive genius who's biology shouldn't have let me choose but did like the woman who lacked a cerebellum walking around. The latter theory leaves God out entirely, but still, my perceptions were about the character traits of my husband, the only qualifications that really make the difference in matters love.

No, it isn't arbitrary and doesn't function to separate among an otherwise similar set of people.

Now you are saying that young people with exceptional moral and intellectual maturity are not dissimilar in judgment from youngsters focused on childish pursuits; interested in keeping up with the crowd and "going steady" instead of building character and spreading the gospel?

And it isn't about how I see it. It's about an empirically verifiable fact that exists with or without my or your agreement and it ends for everyone at about the same age.

The only empirical fact you have is that young people under a certain age have different brain scans. You don't know what limitations those differences present. You can't show me that all 25 year olds are inherently more reasonable or wiser than all 18 year olds and show better judgment to any degree, let alone to the degree that would preclude marriage for the younger set. Divorce rates alone are simply a correlation that could have more to do with social constructs.

I think you're reading something different into that. Loving and recognizing God and His authority is wise. It is, in the life of a Christian the first truly meaningful and wise choice. It isn't a magical transformation. It won't impact your IQ or alter your biology, by way of distinguishing.

That's like saying a merry heart won't alter your physiology. The biology of wisdom is spiritual, not physical. You can even walk and talk without a cerebellum if God wills it.

And marriage stands and falls on God's love. So omit God, get a bad marriage. And if both parties stay submitted to God nothing will alienate them from each other.

I don't know the answer to that off hand.

You should figure it out.

Praying for perfection is itself a sign of an immature mind, Peace.

Then why did Jesus say "be perfect" if we weren't to pray to be perfect and expect an answer.

I am the perfect wife for him and he for me. I got the answer to my prayer just fine so don't see the problem.

...and sometimes a man who isn't doing that can become a man who is and does. Life and people are complicated and willful.

If I choose my own spouse without conferring with God I reap what I sow. Don't marry a bad man if you don't want a bad marriage. The Father in heaven wants to choose good men for his good women, if women will let Him.

It is, but I think you give it the most uncharitable reading imaginable. Some of the wolves standing in the pulpits said that. They deceived others.

Huh? Were you trying to sound like you disagreed without actually doing so? False sheep with false claims. That's indisputable, but false sheep have bad fruit and it gives them away to those who are watching with perception.

Peter was rebuked by Christ when he thought he was speaking a good and later denied Christ three times.

Before his conversion, right? And so? The point is that God doesn't want us to be deceived and so set Peter straight. He would have done the same for Peter at age 20 or 40.

I believe in prayer and what it can teach us. I think you're missing one of the lessons in this particular admission. And I believe God helped two people who wanted a particular happiness find it. May it last you the rest of your lives and may they be happy.

What's the lesson you see and think I don't - so I can understand you more clearly?

Rather, I know it is the demonstrated part of the brain God gave us where sound judgment arises.

You don't know that and act like it's not operational at all prior to that age. Firing patterns changing is what you can see. That's not evidence of an inability to understand and make commitments.

I have all sorts of limitations. It comes with the suit.

I was just kidding. I don't actually believe the cortex limits judgment. I believe preconceptions limit judgment. But I don't believe they have to if you love the truth over a preferred narrative.

Which doesn't negate that we've demonstrated a thing about the brain we can know and how that lines up with judgments. But we always knew it. We attributed it to the experiential limitations of the young prior and there was certainly an element of that, but now we understand more. I'm sure there's a great deal left for us to discover, but knowing more will only give additional insight into an observable limitation, not negate it.

It does negate what we thought we knew. We thought we knew that without a cerebellum we couldn't walk or talk or even live. We have discovered all sorts of impossible things. A man with a tiny amount of brain tissue but nearly average intelligence, a man who was missing half a brain his whole life and never suspected it, etc.

Purpose bypasses function.

But also you are saying that God made biology unevenly so that children would have pheromones, sexual maturity, a sex drive and a desire for companionship and offspring.... without the mental capacity? Why?

No, I'm suggesting that God made us in such a way that we aren't meant or fit to make a decision at the age you did. That as a rule it's contrary to our design.

Why would God set them up with sexual maturity, then? Wouldn't that be creating a conflict and non-ideal situation? Why would God be sloppy like that? I don't buy it.

In one sense they are.....One of those abilities is the capacity for sound and reliable reason.

I think we should trust the design and plan accordingly.

If you trust the design then look and see that the 20 year olds are designed to be fully sexually mature. God would be stupid to do that without equipping their brains to cope with that reality.

And as for sound and reliable reason, there is not so much of that in the older adult population for you to make something out of it beyond what the Bible does.

 

[CabinetMaker]

That catch all doesn't explain why Paul was addressing an ageist attitude amongst those young Timothy, despising the youth of the young leader, who was exemplary.

Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child, a child is one who thinks like a child and acts like a child, reasons like a child, etc. Timothy was no child, having put away childish things. He was a leader and example in the faith, but some took him for granted unfairly because of his age.

How old was Timothy when Paul wrote to him?