Why Homosexuality MUST Be Recriminalized! Part 3

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aikido7

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The Holiness Code in Exodus clearly states that a man who lies with another man is an abomination.

So is having sex with a menstruating woman.

And, truthfully, apparently so is eating shellfish.

But do these literal translations of ancient tribal rules mean that Christians can no longer have a brunch at Red Lobster after Sunday church services are over?
 

aCultureWarrior

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So what passage does AcW believe to be true?

This one...Romans 13...?...4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

OR

1 Corinthians 6

6 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world?...

Both are true, which lays waste to acw's interpretation.

aCW wants to thank Doc for accepting his invitation to discuss the legitimate role of government for societies that honor God and want to do righteous as seen through His eyes.

1 Corinthians 6? Isn't that the verse that Doc's fellow fulltime Libertarian and partime theonomist Christian Liberty (aka the Jr. Libertarian) used back in the day when he was pushing Libertarian doctrine fulltime in this thread?

So what Doc's verse is saying is that if someone robs you or attempts to murder you, go find a Saint and have him deal with it?

I can see it now:

Victim of robbery calling 911: "Hello, I would like to report a robbery, but instead of sending a police officer I would like a Saint."

911 Dispatcher: "I'm sorry sir, but did I hear you right and that you've been robbed but don't want a police officer to respond to your location, but instead want a Saint?"

Victim of robbery: "Yes, that's what I said, I want a Saint, per 1 Corinthians 6."

911 Dispatcher: "Okaaaaaaay sir, I'll send a Saint to your location right away. But be advised, he'll be wearing identification that says "Mental Health Counselor".

(And some people wonder why I refer to Libertarians
as "Loonatarians").
 

GFR7

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While I wait for ye to reply to aikido,

aCW, just wanted to touch base after many days:

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drbrumley

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aCW wants to thank Doc for accepting his invitation to discuss the legitimate role of government for societies that honor God and want to do righteous as seen through His eyes.

1 Corinthians 6? Isn't that the verse that Doc's fellow fulltime Libertarian and partime theonomist Christian Liberty (aka the Jr. Libertarian) used back in the day when he was pushing Libertarian doctrine fulltime in this thread?

So what Doc's verse is saying is that if someone robs you or attempts to murder you, go find a Saint and have him deal with it?

I can see it now:

Victim of robbery calling 911: "Hello, I would like to report a robbery, but instead of sending a police officer I would like a Saint."

911 Dispatcher: "I'm sorry sir, but did I hear you right and that you've been robbed but don't want a police officer to respond to your location, but instead want a Saint?"

Victim of robbery: "Yes, that's what I said, I want a Saint, per 1 Corinthians 6."

911 Dispatcher: "Okaaaaaaay sir, I'll send a Saint to your location right away. But be advised, he'll be wearing identification that says "Mental Health Counselor".

(And some people wonder why I refer to Libertarians
as "Loonatarians").

I'm sure all the saints will not be laughing at your jokes about their plight.

And of course this whole post went over your head. I will give till tomorrow to see where you went wrong.
 

aCultureWarrior

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While I wait for ye to reply to aikido,

What's to reply to? The shellfish analogy has been used so many times in not only this thread but in others that I'm beginning to lose my taste for a nice big fat juicy Maine lobster tail (words that I thought would never come out of my lobster loving mouth).

As far as the menstruating woman goes: That's an interesting one. I was discussing that with my wife not long ago and we both came to the conclusion that God just wants a woman to rest from the sexual advances of her man for a few days out of the month. :madmad:

aCW, just wanted to touch base after many days:

Welcome back GFR7. I have to admit that I'm surprised that you've were able to stay out of this thread this long.
 
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aCultureWarrior

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I'm sure all the saints will not be laughing at your jokes about their plight.

OR, they'd be laughing out loud that someone who supposedly knows something about Scripture would use something like 1 Corinthians 6 in a discussion which entails the righteous role of civil government as seen through the eyes of God.

And of course this whole post went over your head. I will give till tomorrow to see where you went wrong.

(Make note to self to contact Ron Paul and see if he has a fresh shipment of LSD in so that the post won't go over my head next time).

No need to wait until tomorrow Doc, as I think these next few words pretty much say it all:

Moving on....
 

aikido7

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What's to reply to? The shellfish analogy has been used so many times in not only this thread but in others that I'm beginning to lose my taste for a nice big fat juicy Maine lobster tail (words that I thought would never come out of my lobster loving mouth).

The analogy with shellfish is used because it is an exact quote and commandment from the Bible. Your refusal to talk about what the directive actually means is proof to me that the contradictions and discrepancies between the Bible and real life are such that it is difficult for believers like you to touch them with a ten-foot pole.

...A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God

Do not wear clothes made of both wool and linen.

Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
 

aikido7

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What's to reply to? The shellfish analogy has been used so many times in not only this thread but in others that I'm beginning to lose my taste for a nice big fat juicy Maine lobster tail (words that I thought would never come out of my lobster loving mouth).

As far as the menstruating woman goes: That's an interesting one. I was discussing that with my wife not long ago and we both came to the conclusion that God just wants a woman to rest from the sexual advances of her man for a few days out of the month. :madmad:



Welcome back GFR7. I have to admit that I'm surprised that you've were able to stay out of this thread this long.
Homosexuality and eating shellfish are either abominations or they are not.

Cultural warrior, you can't have it both ways.
 

aCultureWarrior

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The analogy with shellfish is used because it is an exact quote and commandment from the Bible. Your refusal to talk about what the directive actually means is proof to me that the contradictions and discrepancies between the Bible and real life are such that it is difficult for believers like you to touch them with a ten-foot pole.

...A woman shall not wear a man's garment, nor shall a man put on a woman's cloak, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord your God

Do not wear clothes made of both wool and linen.

Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.

While I haven't checked my clothing labels lately to see if there is a combination of wool and linen in any of them, I am very concerned about the last sentence as I planted carrots AND tomatoes in the same vegetable garden this past summer. (GASP!).

Homosexuality and eating shellfish are either abominations or they are not.

Cultural warrior, you can't have it both ways.

I'll make you a deal aik7: I'll stick with eating lobster and shrimp and you stick with your homosex, we'll see which one God disapproves of when we meet Him on our judgment day.
 

GFR7

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Homosexuality and eating shellfish are either abominations or they are not.

Cultural warrior, you can't have it both ways.

Aikido: What do you think of how this Catholic addresses the shellfish/homosexuality conflict?:

........ the real stupidity of the shellfish argument from a Catholic perspective is in its failure to distinguish between the moral law and the levitical law, which is a interpretive key that is fundamental to understanding the Old Testament.

The Old Testament is full of laws. The rabbis say there are 613 of them, to be precise. Some of these laws are very general and apply to morality and human relations as such, while others are of a ceremonial nature and have to do with the requirements of the Levitical law of Old Testament Judaism.

The moral laws are binding on all men everywhere and at all times; examples of the moral laws are "Thou shalt have no other gods besides me", "honor thy mother and father", and "Do not hate your brother in your heart."

The ceremonial or Levitical laws, on the other hand, are binding only on Old Testament Israelites and pertain to the nature of Old Testament worship and discipline. Examples of levitical law are "Do not cook a kid in its mother's milk", "Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material", and "Make tassels on the four corners of the cloak you wear". [2]


Since the moral laws have as their subject human nature as such, they are not abolished with the coming of the Lord and the inauguration of the New Covenant; in fact, they are elevated and perfected. Our Lord demands stricter adherence to the moral law in the New Covenant than in the Old: "You have heard that it was said to them of old: Thou shalt not commit adultery.But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart." [3]

The ceremonial laws, on the other hand, have as their subject the worshiper of the Old Covenant (i.e., pre-Christian Jews), not human nature as such. These laws necessarily pass away with the ending of the Old Covenant. These laws are transitory by their very nature and reflect the temporary character of the Old Covenant itself. Thus, when the Old Covenant passes away after the coming of Christ, these ceremonial laws no longer have a purpose and are no longer binding on Christians. This was the approach the Apostles took at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15) when they judged that Gentiles did not have to observe circumcision or Jewish dietary law.


Another classic example of this is the Old Testament prohibition against eating pork and shellfish. Since this pertained to the ceremonial law, Christians have always been considered free from these prohibitions. This is why St. Paul says "Let no man therefore judge you in meat or in drink, or in respect of a festival day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbaths" (Col. 2:16) and why our Lord teaches "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man: but what cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man." (Matt. 15:11). This is why Christians have always eaten pork and shellfish with a clean conscience, despite Old Testament prohibitions. It has always been understood that these prohibitions lost their force with the passing away of the Old Covenant.

The crux of the whole issue is whether the Old Testament prohibitions of homosexual actions belong to the moral or the ceremonial law. Because sexuality has to do with the basic nature of man, and because of the moral dimension of all sexual actions, the Old Testament prohibitions of homosexuality have always been included in the moral law. Thus, they are applicable at all times and places and will never pass away. This is why there is really no contradiction or hypocrisy in Christians condemning homosexuality while gleefully eating shellfish and pork. Homosexual acts are always wrong, under every circumstance. This is why the Catholic Catechism says:

"Tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved." [4]

The Church Fathers understood it this way as well, which is why their writings are replete with unequivocal condemnations of homosexual actions, all while affirming that Christians are not bound by Levitical laws regarding dietary restrictions and other ceremonial obligations.

Note the Catechism reference to Tradition. Some Old Testament scholars have argued that this division of Old Testament laws into moral and levitical is arbitrary, imposed from outside the text, since the Old Testament itself does not give any indication which laws are ceremonial and which laws are moral. This is not entirely true; if we accept New Testament data, there is quite a bit to help us sort the laws out. But by and large, it is Catholic Tradition that offers the definitive clarification on these questions. This is why we cannot throw out tradition and expect to maintain the Christian faith in its integrity.

In short, the prohibition against shellfish belongs to the ceremonial law, which is no longer binding on Christians, whilst prohibitions on homosexual acts belong to the moral law and are always binding. Please remember this article and repost whenever you run across the ignorant shellfish argument.

http://www.unamsanctamcatholicam.co...sues/376-homosexuality,-shellfish,-bible.html
 

aikido7

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While I haven't checked my clothing labels lately to see if there is a combination of wool and linen in any of them, I am very concerned about the last sentence as I planted carrots AND tomatoes in the same vegetable garden this past summer. (GASP!).



I'll make you a deal aik7: I'll stick with eating lobster and shrimp and you stick with your homosex, we'll see which one God disapproves of when we meet Him on our judgment day.
Judgment Day is every day. Being judged after one's death is a statement of theology and belief and faith. It is not something that is factually correct.

What IS correct is that the historical figure of Jesus was socially promiscuous and upset many people because he was a party animal with the destitute and the marginalized.

You might as well be honest and admit that you are unable to see what others call human trash to be human beings like yourself.
At least you will be morally truthful.
 

jsjohnnt

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(STILL trying to set up conservatives and fundamentalists on blind dates with Jesus...) ~ aikido

As a Reformed Fundie, i must admit, I think this quote is great.
 

Christian Liberty

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(STILL trying to set up conservatives and fundamentalists on blind dates with Jesus...) ~ aikido

As a Reformed Fundie, i must admit, I think this quote is great.

Same here (Reformed Baptist fundie myself;))

This thread is frustrating on multiple levels. If someone advocates criminalizing sexual vice because of the effects on society, someone makes a comparison to Red Lobster, not understanding the distinction between ceremonial, moral, and civil law* (theonomists deny the separation between the moral and civil law, but there's a difference between arguing it doesn't exist, and just plain being unaware of it)

On the other hand, if someone argues against criminalizing sexual immorality because they don't feel the State should be involved with it, they get called "perverted" or so forth, because again, the person saying it isn't even open to considering a separation between the different types of laws.

I wish the debate here would be more intelligent, but that requires basic Bible knowledge, which open theists don't have. So I don't know why I waste my time.
 

aCultureWarrior

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(STILL trying to set up conservatives and fundamentalists on blind dates with Jesus...) ~ aikido

As a Reformed Fundie, i must admit, I think this quote is great.

If you think that was cute Johnny boy, you oughta see aik7 when it gets on one of his muzzie defending crusades.
 

GFR7

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Same here (Reformed Baptist fundie myself;))

This thread is frustrating on multiple levels. If someone advocates criminalizing sexual vice because of the effects on society, someone makes a comparison to Red Lobster, not understanding the distinction between ceremonial, moral, and civil law* (theonomists deny the separation between the moral and civil law, but there's a difference between arguing it doesn't exist, and just plain being unaware of it)

On the other hand, if someone argues against criminalizing sexual immorality because they don't feel the State should be involved with it, they get called "perverted" or so forth, because again, the person saying it isn't even open to considering a separation between the different types of laws.

I wish the debate here would be more intelligent, but that requires basic Bible knowledge, which open theists don't have. So I don't know why I waste my time.
You bring an extra dimension to any debate ,
and your knowledge is stunning for one so young.

As to why you waste your time - :think: so long as it is not why I do: a bizarre attachment to aCW :jawdrop:
 

aCultureWarrior

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... So I don't know why I waste my time.

I agree Jr., I don't know why you waste your and other peoples time in a Christian website when you could be enjoying the company of abortionists, homosexuals/pedophiles/pederasts, pornographers (kiddy porn included) prostitutes and drug pushers at your Libertarian RPF website.
 

GFR7

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I agree Jr., I don't know why you waste your and other peoples time in a Christian website when you could be enjoying the company of abortionists, homosexuals/pedophiles/pederasts, pornographers (kiddy porn included) prostitutes and drug pushers at your Libertarian RPF website.
:nono:
 
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