Why Homosexuality MUST Be Recriminalized! Part 3

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zippy2006

zippy2006

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SignunCrucis said:
I believe in a maximally great God.

That means He is maximally powerful. If God is not doing anything about homosexuality when He has the power to, it is part of His plan.

I don't have the hubris to assume that I know more than Him.
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According to your argument, anything that exists is part of God's plan and thus if we try to change anything which exists we must be assuming that we know more than God. For example:

  • Starving children exist
  • AIDS and Ebola exist
  • Persons who have not been evangelized exist

Your reasoning would seem to say that feeding starving children, attempting to cure AIDS, or evangelizing would imply a hubris and "knowing more than God," since God allows all of these things to exist.

That is to say, I don't find your argument convincing. What do you think of that?

Oh, and welcome to TOL. :e4e:
 
SignunCrucis

SignunCrucis

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zippy2006 said:
According to your argument, anything that exists is part of God's plan and thus if we try to change anything which exists we must be assuming that we know more than God. For example:

  • Starving children exist
  • AIDS and Ebola exist
  • Persons who have not been evangelized exist

Your reasoning would seem to say that feeding starving children, attempting to cure AIDS, or evangelizing would imply a hubris and "knowing more than God," since God allows all of these things to exist.

That is to say, I don't find your argument convincing. What do you think of that?

Oh, and welcome to TOL. :e4e:
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Exactly. Thanks for the summary.

The problem of evil is vexing but does not allow me judge God or anything He does.
 
zippy2006

zippy2006

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SignunCrucis said:
zippy2006 said:
So here's my question: do you think we should feed starving children, try to cure AIDS, or evangelize?
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No, no and no.

God knows what He is doing, we do not.
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Okay. But it seems to me that Jesus told us to feed the hungry and to evangelize:


Matthew 25:34-40
Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? 38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? 39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’​

Isaiah 58:10
if you pour yourself out for the hungry
and satisfy the desire of the afflicted,
then shall your light rise in the darkness
and your gloom be as the noonday.​

Mark 16:15
And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.​


...What do you make of those verses? :think:
 
SignunCrucis

SignunCrucis

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If God is maximally great, then He will take care of everything (as noted in the first verse).

I wonder if Jesus was referring to spiritual hunger.
 
zippy2006

zippy2006

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SignunCrucis said:
If God is maximally great, then He will take care of everything (as noted in the first verse).

I wonder if Jesus was referring to spiritual hunger.
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Isn't spiritual hunger essentially the need for evangelization? And wouldn't the same argument deny spiritual hunger that denies physical hunger and evangelization? That is to say, aren't the spiritually hungry also hungry because of God's plan?
 
SignunCrucis

SignunCrucis

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If you can convince me that God is not maximally great, then I could agree that human activity is needed.

If not, then I can only conclude that God and His plan is a divine mystery.
 
GFR7

GFR7

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I think the argument SignunCrucis makes here:

If God is not doing anything about homosexuality when He has the power to, it is part of His plan.
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fails to convince, because it presupposes that anything which occurs must be part of God's plan, else he would "do something about it". Similar to Zippy's argument, one could ask then if this is also true of :

child pornography
unjust wars
brutalizing animals, etc.

I can only conclude that what he really means must be more along the lines of, "if gay rights are prospering, it must be with God's approval" but then that can also be argued with by pointing out movements which are pernicious but which prosper.

Better to say that one believes homosexuality is something advancing as it is part of progress and things don't progress without God's approval (I don't believe this, but I think this is his argument.)
 
SignunCrucis

SignunCrucis

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GFR7 - I agree.

The problem is I have trouble understanding why a maximally great God would allow suffering, as outlined by Epicurus and others.
 
aCultureWarrior

aCultureWarrior

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Quote: Originally posted by aCulture

...Read Bob Enyart's "Nicer than God" article that I posted a few pages back. While I want pagans and atheists to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, there is nothing that says that I have to be nice to those who promote evil.

Thunder's Muse said:
I get that. You do what you feel is right.

I like to stay calm and remind people they have more control over their reactions than they think they do.
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Are you implying that it's my...

"method"

that irritates people instead of the message?
 
zippy2006

zippy2006

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SignunCrucis said:
No. As Jesus says God provides not humans.
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Okay. I have to go but it was nice talking to you. I tend to disagree--I think God wants us to feed the hungry, try to cure AIDS, and evangelize. But let me say something about your larger argument before I leave:

SignunCrucis said:
If God is maximally great, then...
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I too think God is maximally great, but I don't think that means everything is just how he wants it. Just as a greater father allows his children to help him do his work, I think a greater God allows (and desires) us to help him bring about the restoration of creation. We can see that Adam helped God care for the garden and name the animals (Genesis 2:15, Genesis 2:19). We can also see that Christians partake in the very life of God, and are instruments in his hands (2 Peter 1:4, 2 Timothy 2:20-22). God is great partially because he allows creatures to help him transform creation, even though he could do it in an instant if he so chose. :)

Take care,
-zip :e4e:
 
aCultureWarrior

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SignunCrucis said:
aCW -

I believe in a maximally great God.

That means He is maximally powerful. If God is not doing anything about homosexuality when He has the power to, it is part of His plan.

I don't have the hubris to assume that I know more than Him.

I wonder why you do.

It's it that you think God isn't maximally great?

Or do you think that you are better than God?
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Do you believe that God is an anarchist? Do you believe that God didn't ordain civil government as one of three institutions (along with the Church and family) for the governance of men?

Are you an anarchist Sig, or do you believe government should just leave this particular pet sin of yours alone?
 
GFR7

GFR7

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SignunCrucis said:
GFR7 - I agree.

The problem is I have trouble understanding why a maximally great God would allow suffering, as outlined by Epicurus and others.
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The problem of suffering is a profound one, agreed. William James concluded that God could be just or all-powerful, but not both, for this exact reason.
Thnx, and also, welcome.
:cheers:
Gianfranco
 
SignunCrucis

SignunCrucis

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Z2006 - Thanks for your thoughts. Does the need to have humans do God's work reduce His power? Either God is not maximally great, or He doesn't know or He doesn't want to help or He doesn't care.
 
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