• This is a new section being rolled out to attract people interested in exploring the origins of the universe and the earth from a biblical perspective. Debate is encouraged and opposing viewpoints are welcome to post but certain rules must be followed. 1. No abusive tagging - if abusive tags are found - they will be deleted and disabled by the Admin team 2. No calling the biblical accounts a fable - fairy tale ect. This is a Christian site, so members that participate here must be respectful in their disagreement.

Why Evolution is real science - let's settle this "debate"!

Stuu

New member
That's as useless and silly a thing for you to say as it would be for you to say, "I recommend that you not misinterpret a lack of motivation to walk on the surface of the sun as a lack of ability to walk on the surface of the sun".
You may doubt my sun surface walking ability if you wish, but you do so at your own risk.

Stuart
 

Stripe

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Apparently you believe that evolution happens 'within kinds'.

Why would you say such a ridiculous thing?

Evolution is the idea that all life is descended by means of random mutations and natural selection from a universal common ancestor. To restrict it to "within kinds" is to posit inanity.

Do you spend any time at all considering what the opposing point of view is?

To be an opponent of evolution by natural selection from variations caused by random mutation (and related mechanisms) from common origins you would need to give just as detailed an explanation, with mechanisms and evidence, that explained how it is possible for all variation to be stored up in either two or seven pairs of members of every living species, and then unleashed to give the current distribution and variation we see today, with no evidence at all of a recent genetic bottleneck.
No, I wouldn't.

There is no prerequisite needed to oppose an idea. People are free to do that for any or no reason.

This is just silly games on your part. Try engaging sensibly. :up:

Are you really an opponent of Darwinism? On the evidence so far I'd say you are just a religious fundamentalist science denier with a desire for alt-facts for your religious lifestyle choice.
:yawn:

On the other hand you were being successful in the main point of creationism, to get religion taught in US schools, then that would be damaging and I would have to oppose that in solidarity with young people wishing to follow a career in science.
You seriously have nothing to offer, do you?

Stay away. :up:
 

WYRose

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This silly attempt to prove Evolution and Bible are possible is just plain disproved by the simple fact there has never been nor could ever be a single example of evolution found.
Th eOP has obviously never watched flashflood video and seen the mass of debris a flash flood can displace and carry along until finding a place to drop and sort it hydraulically.
The video fo the Condit Dam removal shows this perfectly!
 

ok doser

Well-known member
Interesting to see this from a secular source - so baldly stated and yet obviously so accepted as "fact" - truly a "just-so" story :chuckle:



Charles Darwin, father of evolutionary biology, wrote in 1871 that life first emerged in “warm little ponds”, which he imagined to be small wells of water and chemicals, heated by the sun and surrounded by rocks and air.
With these few ingredients and a big dose of randomness, he posited, the basic elements of life clicked together, leading to simple life forms, like bacteria. Their evolution over millions of years eventually led to the sophisticated life forms that now inhabit the planet.


https://getpocket.com/explore/item/...rigins-into-question?utm_source=pocket-newtab



A big dose of randomness and millions of years! Why of course! That must be it!
 

way 2 go

Well-known member
Interesting to see this from a secular source - so baldly stated and yet obviously so accepted as "fact" - truly a "just-so" story :chuckle:



Charles Darwin, father of evolutionary biology, wrote in 1871 that life first emerged in “warm little ponds”, which he imagined to be small wells of water and chemicals, heated by the sun and surrounded by rocks and air.
With these few ingredients and a big dose of randomness, he posited, the basic elements of life clicked together, leading to simple life forms, like bacteria. Their evolution over millions of years eventually led to the sophisticated life forms that now inhabit the planet.


https://getpocket.com/explore/item/...rigins-into-question?utm_source=pocket-newtab



A big dose of randomness and millions of years! Why of course! That must be it!

in Darwin's time it was a theory , now its just a story some refuse to let die
 

The Barbarian

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Charles Darwin, father of evolutionary biology, wrote in 1871 that life first emerged in
“warm little ponds”, which he imagined to be small wells of water and chemicals, heated by the sun and surrounded by rocks and air.


Well, let's look at that. Yes, God did say that the earth and water brought forth life. But only because he made it so:


Gen. 1:24 And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done.


Darwin agreed:

There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.
Charles Darwin, last sentence of On the Origin of Species
 

The Barbarian

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I suppose I should point out that the origin of life had nothing to do with Darwin's theory of evolution. He assumed life began somehow,and described how it changed over time.
 

The Barbarian

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The Bible says that God made every creature on earth to be vegetarian (Genesis 1:31)..

Well, let's take a look..

Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Nope. Nothing about vegetarians. You should go look for yourself.
 

Right Divider

Body part


Well, let's look at that. Yes, God did say that the earth and water brought forth life. But only because he made it so:


Gen. 1:24 And God said: Let the earth bring forth the living creature in its kind, cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth, according to their kinds. And it was so done.

Darwin agreed:

There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved.
Charles Darwin, last sentence of On the Origin of Species
Your abuse of verse 24 is wrong.

Darwinism claims that ALL life has a SINGLE common ancestor.

So even is your "earth as creator" theory of "cattle and creeping things, and beasts of the earth" were true... it still does not match with Darwinism, as all of the other life forms on earth were already created by God directly before the supposed "evolution" of the rest.
 

The Barbarian

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Suppose someone asked if you could discuss plumbing without discussing God. Would you give him the same answer?

No, but totally apples and oranges. Why? Because I DO when someone says "let's discuss evolution." "Plumbing" doesn't imply 'without God.' Evolution does.

That's one of the misconceptions that keeps you from the truth. Even Darwin thought God created the first living things.
"There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved."
Charles Darwin, last sentence of On the Origin of Species, 1872

Probably not, because plumbing doesn't upset you.

Nor does "evolution."

Then you've been giving everyone the wrong message. You don't need to be upset with evolution; it's just is a a specifi word for God's creation of life's diversity.

Yet plumbing is like science, methodologically naturalistic.

Er, 'science' is science.

And creationism is a modern revision of Scripture.

We were talking about an 'observation' called 'evolution.' It is a 'supposition' about the 'way biology works when changing (a pretty good definition of it). In and of itself?

No supposition; we can directly observe it, and it works just as Darwin said. We know a lot more of the details, but Darwin's four points remain as solid as ever.


No problem. A thread like this that says "let's separate 'the way something works, from the way God says something works..."


Rather, it's "let's talk about the way it works, as opposed to the way some people have revised God's word about it."


Worldviews and behaviors affect job performance. I'd suggest, by morality, the plumber 'should' be doing a superior job than the nonChristian.


That would be what I'd hope to see. But I see lots of people who identify as Christian who are much less honest and hard-working than many non-Christians. And yes, "no true Scotsman" applies here.




That doesn't mean I haven't been treated badly by Christians or exceptionally well by nonChristians, but generally I have seen this play out more often than not.

No. "Plumbing" IS an accurate name for what one does. "Evolution" is NOT an accurate name for how creation works.

It's the way some of His creation works. He does most things by natural means in this world. Why would He create nature and then not use it?

Read Colossians 1:16-20. Does 'evolution' come to mind in the description?

Protons and hemoglobin don't come to mind, either. But they are just as true as evolution.

Do 'pipes' come to mind when plumbing is mentioned? Yep. Pipes 'evolving' under your house? Nope.

Well, evolution doesn't have water hammer, either. Don't see your point.

I'd say 'okay' yet pipes do not evolve. According to Colossians 1:16-20, nothing does

Nope. You just inserted that into the verses to make them more acceptable to you.


Two summary points:

1) "Evolution" generally, but specifically means 'on its own.'

Wrong. Generally, evolution means "change." Specifically, in biology, it means "change in allele frequencies in a population over time."

Which is the way God creates new taxa. I notice many creationist groups are willing to accept this for new species, genera, and families. Sometimes, they'll go a bit farther than that.


2) This thread asks for discussion of 'evolution' (on its own) on its own IN the religion section.

That's a problem, but this is where evolution is being discussed. Since as Darwin and other theists and even agnostics agree, it does reflect religious issues, even if science can't assess such things.

As most Christians acknowledge, there is no conflict between scripture and evolution. It's a modern revision of scripture that makes it so.
 

Right Divider

Body part
As most Christians acknowledge, there is no conflict between scripture and evolution. It's a modern revision of scripture that makes it so.
You have it exactly backwards... no surprise.

It is great to hear you using the old appeal to popularity again though. Keep up the good work!
 

Lon

Well-known member
Suppose someone asked if you could discuss plumbing without discussing God. Would you give him the same answer?

That's one of the misconceptions that keeps you from the truth. Even Darwin thought God created the first living things.
"There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved."
Charles Darwin, last sentence of On the Origin of Species, 1872

Probably not, because plumbing doesn't upset you.

Then you've been giving everyone the wrong message. You don't need to be upset with evolution; it's just is a a specifi word for God's creation of life's diversity.

Yet plumbing is like science, methodologically naturalistic.
Er, 'plumbing' doesn't evolve. "Evolve" doesn't mean change. It means 'by its own bootstraps.' You may not want it to mean that, which would explain a bit about you, but it does. They way you use it? That isn't a huge problem, but things don't/cannot change by themselves so "adapt' is out. A generic 'change?' Most won't argue that and it is important, every time you enter these conversations on TOL, to remember. Sometimes, your issues are self-made by not remembering.

And creationism is a modern revision of Scripture.
Again, be careful with terms. "In the beginning, God 'created' the heavens and the earth." Be careful always, and spell it out; what you mean else many will always wonder at your conviction and devotion to God.

No supposition; we can directly observe it, and it works just as Darwin said. We know a lot more of the details, but Darwin's four points remain as solid as ever.
In the interim, this was moved to the 'science' section so some of my problems aren't evident here.
Rather, it's "let's talk about the way it works, as opposed to the way some people have revised God's word about it."
Show. Post the scriptures and examples.

That would be what I'd hope to see. But I see lots of people who identify as Christian who are much less honest and hard-working than many non-Christians. And yes, "no true Scotsman" applies here.
I'd suggest some of this is self-fulfilling. I've been hurt in church, no question, but "Love hardly notices when someone does it wrong." The mention here then, for me, is anti-productive. We need to talk rather about ways to encourage good behavior. Some of my favorite stories are about people who refused to say something bad, always attempted to say something positive, and found that people complained a lot less. Scripture calls us 'who are mature' to walk that way around the less mature around us. The only success I have in debate, is when I remember to do good to those who are in opposition. At the very least, you and I can talk without the labels. I do understand them.
That doesn't mean I haven't been treated badly by Christians or exceptionally well by nonChristians, but generally I have seen this play out more often than not.
Capitalism? It can have a good affect. The children of Israel complained all the time, its a good reminder to me to simply go to God with all these observations.

It's the way some of His creation works. He does most things by natural means in this world. Why would He create nature and then not use it?
It has a 'hands-off' tenor to it. I believe Colossians 1:17 and John 15:5 means 'nothing' so I'd hope you can appreciate theology does indeed drive our science and I don't think Christians can help, but bring their strong faith, into everything they see from God.



Protons and hemoglobin don't come to mind, either. But they are just as true as evolution.
"Where your heart is, there your treasure is also." When I read Colossians 1:16-20, and we've no idea what keeps atoms from blowing apart, that keeps them together, then these actually do come to my mind when I'm reading:
Colossians 1:16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Well, evolution doesn't have water hammer, either. Don't see your point.
Simply this: without Darwin, I always believed God created everything. Did I believe there were dinosaurs? Yes. Did I believe Mammoth was related to elephants? Yes. Did I believe a whale originated from a weasel-like creature? No. With a scientific mind, I can rightly question that hypothesis with impunity by the rules of science. It is 'okay' to question what people think is an answer.

Nope. You just inserted that into the verses to make them more acceptable to you.
Incorrect. This again, is where 'evolution' means something different to you than the nonChristian. To him/her, evolution is a directionless change, that sometimes produces 'beneficially' (as if a godless universe perspective could qualify such an idea).

Wrong. Generally, evolution means "change." Specifically, in biology, it means "change in allele frequencies in a population over time."
....and again 'on its own.' How could something be said to 'evolve' when God is directing, sustaining, the change? Thus 'evolution' is the word given. There was no doubt, Before 1859, nobody thought 'evolution' but they certainly saw change. Most thought "God's universe."

Which is the way God creates new taxa. I notice many creationist groups are willing to accept this for new species, genera, and families. Sometimes, they'll go a bit farther than that.
Man does a lot of taxonomy changes (Labradoodles). Whatever we do, God being involved with creation by sustaining power, means He will do what is necessary until He deems. While we may mourn the passing of the auk or dodo, some scientists don't seem to realize God will keep the balance. He's also given us caretaking of the earth, so some of this is due partially to our negligence, but it is also important to remember God is sovereign over His creation.

That's a problem, but this is where evolution is being discussed. Since as Darwin and other theists and even agnostics agree, it does reflect religious issues, even if science can't assess such things.
Its been moved out of the theology section so most of my contention is no longer an issue. This post was two years ago :)

As most Christians acknowledge, there is no conflict between scripture and evolution. It's a modern revision of scripture that makes it so.
Padding your data a bit. There are studies that people trust science a bit less these days. Nobody really argues the process, but conclusions and it is always a good thing. I can either show my work, or punt. I've no problem meeting skepticism.
 
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