Lon
Well-known member
In other words "The only way you can read the Bible is the way I do. Everyone but me is in a cult"???
Why a Sacrifice if Calvinism is True?
- Thread starter Poly
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Lon
Well-known member
:think:
Declarative is weird, it is just opinion without any weight. :think:
Sure, the backhanded insult will get them :Z Let's see if you've the where-with-all to back up the check your mouth just wrote :think:
:think: This isn't it so far... :think:
Still sacrificing on altars? Deuteronomy 12:6 :think:
Doing a search feature is not bible study nor is it understanding. This is simply a cut/paste.
It doesn't necessarily imply what you believe it does. In order to use proof-verses they MUST be much clearer, not implicated.
So, all this to say your scripture prowess is better than another's? That you can understand them and others cannot? You'll have to do better. This doesn't measure up to the expectation of the check your mouth (type) wrote. :idunno: Why is this even part of the conversation in this thread? What does it have to do with the OP??? You are demonstrating that it isn't just them that needs remedial work, and that's a good thing. Levels the playing field for actual discussion. :up:
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Lon
Well-known member
Romans 9:17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Good questions. Ordination, for me, isn't 'desire.' It is rather 'ordering' or 'organizing.' In this particular there are two camps: Time is linear and cannot be traversed: Past/future.
For us, that's true, but it is a property of our physical universe. God is not physical, but Spirit. Scripture indicates 'by faith, God who is Spirit created that which is physical.'
This is necessary for explaining that God sees all of our creation at a glance, somewhat like my fish tank at home. I know everything (pretty much) about what is in the tank, what my fish will do, eat, and life-span. In that sense, I ordered (preordained) the whole thing. One of my fish was killed by another. I knew that was 'likely' to happen but I didn't want it to happen. I had to figure out how to stop that from happening. We took all the fish back and I bought a schooling fish instead. God did the same with the flood.
The only problem that ever comes up with this, whether Calvinist or other, is about 'when' God knows/knew what He knows/knew. To me, this simply doesn't matter. It is simply trying to get God 'off the hook' for an accusation. For me, the answer is 1) to question whether we have that right (I don't believe I do) and 2) whether we are thinking clearly about blame. Sometimes guilt is apparent, at least seems apparent. Guilt and 'when' as well as how indelible we see time, affects how we see 'guilt.'
Romans 9 walks through a similar question with Paul simply asserting that we, the creation, have no right to question God. It reminds me of my parents, at times, saying simply "Because I said so."
What I find disturbing is the fact that Calvinists can't read your post and get the joke. The sarcasm just flies right over their heads. Their brains simply will not make the logical connections that would allow anything you've said in this post to make any sense. Instead they think you're just lying. They do not believe it possible for anyone to think that their doctrine is contradicted by the 10,000 choices they make every day (10,001+ on election day). The idea of predestined choices does not present itself as an oxymoron to their broken minds and I find that to be almost frightening. That is a level of mental disorder that borders on outright madness. What other feats of cognitive dissonance are they willing to commit? Indeed, that question is asked backward! The right question is, what feat of cognitive dissonance are they not willing to commit? There can't be one! Which feat of stupidity, what statement of insanity, which act of madness are they wiling to believe is out of bounds for a god whom they believe planned. predestined and forced every act of child molestation, rape and murder to happen?
`
“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)
“thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)
”He testifies that He creates light and darkness, forms good and evil (Isaiah 45:7); that no evil happens which He hath not done (Amos 3:6).* Let them tell me whether God exercises His judgments willingly or unwillingly.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 18, Paragraph 3)
“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)
“thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)
”He testifies that He creates light and darkness, forms good and evil (Isaiah 45:7); that no evil happens which He hath not done (Amos 3:6).* Let them tell me whether God exercises His judgments willingly or unwillingly.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 18, Paragraph 3)
“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)
Translation:
"To me, words can be synonyms without meaning the same thing."
"Things that seem to contradict to everyone else don't contradict, to me."
"To me, it doesn't matter if one's doctrine makes any sense."
Lon believes that doctrine is, at the end of the day, really just a matter of personal opinion. "To Lon", there is no absolute truth. He accepts Calvinism because he simply prefers it and for no other reason. He doesn't accept it as absolute truth and makes no attempt to defend it rationally because it isn't a matter of reason but of personally chosen belief. His belief in God is no more substantive that is the 5 year old's belief in the tooth fairy. Indeed, less substantive than that because the child wouldn't believe in the tooth fairy if the child's parents hadn't taught them to do so. In other words, there is far less cognitive dissonance on the part of the child's belief in the tooth fairy than there is in Lon's acceptance of Calvinism.
Clete
blackbirdking
New member
How so? Simply provide one scripture that clearly states, without the aid of human reasoning, that God knew before creation of man, that Adam would sin and that God could have prevented Adam's sin without violating His creation.
If there is one, this discussion would have been over hundreds of years ago.
Where did I say I'm not in a cult?
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WonderfulLordJesus
New member
What other feats? Maybe, at some point, predestined to walk and chew gum at the same time? Your first mistake, my friend, is expecting to find proper exegesis or common sense. Do you not realize this is the web?! “All hope abandon, ye who logon here.”
It really is pretty amazing how, here and there, you run into these cultish people that are as blind to humor as they are to scripture. On a number of occasions, I've made comments just joking, spoofing, having a little fun: after presenting the truth, what else is there to do? After all, you can't take their theology seriously, and they’ll just blabber away at their errors, page after page, until the server runs out of hard drive. (Any more than try to have a conversation with a tree stump, I'm not one for the endless bickering. I'd prefer to move on to blond jokes, in that case, any day.) As you point out, they’re like crack babies, and instances you’d think nobody could possibly take such obvious humor literally. It’s plain weird, isn’t it? Hey! With the Calvinist, though, maybe they weren't predestined to have a personality? Correction, should that be an irresistible personality? They are admitted robots, you know. Maybe God’s special little creatures get a custom installation, don’t get all the libraries loaded? Like a whole Bible, for instance?
Lon
Well-known member
Proverbs 5:21 Isaiah 46:9-10 1 John 3:19-20 Revelation 13:8 Explicit? Seems like: John 21:17
To date, I've not seen any of these disputed at any length, that they couldn't mean what they say they mean?
Then why the disdain? :idunno:
Lon
Well-known member
Declarative after declarative. I've the prowess and where-with-all but sorry, I simply put those without the ability OR desire on ignore. Isaiah 55:11 Banter and unsupported declarative are not bible study, nor are they compelling argument. Why do them? Are these kinds of posts just to express disdain and some kind of feigned grasp of scripture? I just don't get it. I can talk scriptures all day but I definitely try to avoid these kinds of posts. Show me anywhere, harsh as the Lord Jesus Christ or Apostles might have seemed, where they were disdained and hated or where they returned it.... 1 Peter 3:9 Luke 23:14 Acts 5:12,13 When you stand before the Lord Jesus Christ, is this it? Matthew 25:21
This thread asks about the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. I have no other stand or defense than His mercies and grace.
Lon
Well-known member
I've seen the argument, but it doesn't fit Romans 9 which clearly speaks of individuals being born, one is born favored, the other is born rejected Ephesians 1:3-14 reads similarly to Romans 9.
"Singular." In both cases. I appreciate your previous post and dealing honestly and with integrity viewing God's scriptures. 2 Peter 3:16 We have to understand God and accept God, however it 'attacks our sensibilities.' God is good and God is God alone lest we make a form of Him in our own image. :up:
blackbirdking
New member
Where does the Bible say that God ordained that Adam was created a "willful creature"?
Where does the Bible say that Adam was ordained to "surely fail"?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Does the Bible teach Adam was created an unconscious, ignorant, and unwilling robot?
Does the Bible teach that the first Adam achieved the obedient perfections of the last Adam, Jesus Christ?
beloved57
Well-known member
To be Glorified through the Person and Work of Jesus Christ !
Lunatic madness!
I swear it is as if there is a real dysfunction in the Calvinist's brain!
In what conceivable way would a god be glorified by having arbitrarily predestined sin in order to arbitrarily give the god's son something to die for. Why not have him die for something else? If it's arbitrary as the Calvinists DO believe, why couldn't it have been butterflies or earth worms or elephants or anything else that didn't cause a world full of pain, suffering, misery and death?
It's utter stupidity if not outright insanity!!
Nanja
Well-known member
Exactly Correct Brother, and The God We serve is He which Performs as He so Desires with His Creation.
Yet, many religious people in this late day and time, have no fear of God before their eyes Rom. 3:18:
That is, no reverence for the Works He does, or that they would question His Actions with regard to
how He deals with His Creation, whether it be favorably or otherwise Rom. 9:20.
Job 23:13-14
13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.
Ps. 115:3
But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
beloved57
Well-known member
Amen Sister!
blackbirdking
New member
These verses mean exactly what they say; nothing more, nothing less.
None of these verses clearly state, without using human reasoning, that God knew before creation of man, that Adam would sin and that God could have prevented Adam's sin without violating His creation.
Why do you think they do?
When some 'scientist' declares, that according to science, the sun will not give heat and light, I feel the same way because someone in a cold basement believes him.
blackbirdking
New member
No
What are "obedient perfections"?
So again:
So again:
So answering these questions with questions signifies that you don't have scripture to support your 'Godly' opinion?
You are the one pretending to defend Calvinism, not me, yet you can't give scripture to say why you believe.
You said, in defense of Calvinism:
It is sadly regrettable that you would swallow Calvinism, hook line and sinker, which is based upon false presupposition of God's character, without you being able to base it on scripture.
I do not see how Calvinism is founded on scripture; apparently, neither does Poly in the OP, nor you.
Again, where is scripture to support your claim?
Where does the Bible say that God ordained that Adam was created a "willful creature"?
Where does the Bible say that Adam was ordained to "surely fail"?
One or both of us is wrong.
Besides:
A being ordained to be "willful", (a being ordained to be able to exercise his will to fail or to be able to exercise his will to not fail), cannot be ordained to exercise his will to "surely fail"; because, then he could not exercise his will to not fail, making him unable to be "willful". Adam was either ordained to fail or he was ordained to be "willful".
Seems like we just crossed over the point in the thread where all the Calvinists stop responding to anything anyone says that they don't already agree with.
I wonder what it's like to believe that your god predestined you to lose every single debate you'll ever engage in on the topic of your doctrine?
I wonder what it's like to believe that your god predestined you to lose every single debate you'll ever engage in on the topic of your doctrine?
WonderfulLordJesus
New member
It really as if one is communicating with a tree stump, or some Chatty Cathy doll, pull the string and out comes a Calvin quote. Something I've always noticed, from all cults with these doctrines of men, is that they are non-responsive to very scripture that shreds their claims. I posted abundant scripture a couple times, which clearly and plainly destroys Calvinism, nothing the least ambiguous, even in one post highlighted what are clear scripture statements in red, that well put the lie to Calvinism, thinking a color contrast would aid what must be predestined to very meager reading comprehension skills.
To be serious, the cults all have the lies and false doctrines of some sinful man or woman at the center, and, important to note, these false doctrines trump scripture in their minds. They are in the business of selling these false doctrines that supersede scripture truth, to them, therefore do not even feel obliged to reconcile the scripture they contradict, as they reject the truth. Of course, neither can they defend their lies with scripture, at best only cite some verse and twist it into a pretzel, with all their blather: the man blather is required, to inject the lies.
As I've mentioned before, there's a pattern right there in the false prophets' writings. It's all over threads here. A little scripture, a lot of blather, to try and twist the meaning of scripture. Not just the Calvinists, all cults do this. You'll notice this in their false prophets' writings, how what they're really doing is sprinkling scripture around in their lying doctrines, their doctrines of man, that, on closer examination, whole scripture context does not support. They can't simply list a page or two of scripture that backs their claims, that speaks for itself, ever, because their claims are lies. You'll notice scripture they have posted asserts nothing the Calvinist claims, for instance, right here in this thread, as if citing that God does His pleasure, or His omniscience, is the same as saying He, by design, created what must be a majority damned babies, which is, obviously, pure evil. There is not a scintilla Calvinism in the scripture they cite. Would it not probably make Satan cringe, the concept of damning most babies, before there were babies? (An important aside, you'll find the lying Calvinist can't account for the origin of evil, outside of HOLY God, Himself, at all. I think they want people to come to this conclusion.) It wouldn’t even dawn on them God’s sovereign will was to create man to make choices, as scripture is very clear on, cover to cover, man that can very easily, willfully resist God in their persons.
So, you'll notice they see things in scripture that aren't there, at all, in the scripture they cite, and somehow seem oblivious to the fact that, if there were any doctrine of damned and saved robots, there would be pages of scripture asserting Christ died for a few good robots, not to take preaching too much to heart, as it isn't really even required, before a gleam in your parents' eyes, shoot, before even your parents, irresistibly zapped is irresistibly zapped: God made you a Presbyterian before there was darkness on the face of the deep and everybody else damned, just that He didn't get around to pointing this out until the 16th century, His publisher's first century or so deadline to get the New Testament out and all. The Lord meant to include that He's mainly having a bit of fun, complaining at the evil robots that can't help themselves, telling them to repent, when they can't, this His favorite sport these thousands of years, and everywhere scripture speaks to God wishing none perish, wishing that all men come to repentance, He dying for the sins of the world, this whosoever believeth stuff? Just kidding! By the way, I was, in fact, once told by a TULIP Presbyterian I was obviously damned, because I don’t see the glory of Calvin’s irresistible grace that only those with that grace can see, that I cheapened God’s capital ‘S’ Sovereignty with the thought I had anything to do with repenting and receiving Christ, therefore I am a bad robot, never to tiptoe through the TULIPs. (It was truly funny. Others chimed-in how they’d pray for me, and I’m thinking, “Say whut?! Pray for me? You just said I’m bad robot, since before the sun and moon!”)
Anyway, they can't post plain scripture after scripture to support their claims, at all, because their claims are lies. They must be non-responsive, to anybody well versed in scripture truth, would avoid such confrontations with scripture, if they could. Plain scripture is like throwing holy water on the vampire sort of thing to them. What's so ridiculous is how they think they can contradict scripture with scripture, not even seeing they're, therefore, both saying that God is a liar, and that His word is not reliable. I think this is the devil's hook in it all, what amounts to tare business, the bottom line to try and impugn God's holiness, His integrity, His love and mercy, His justice, their false prophets going back to that same of old modus operandi, that same old con, in the Garden, "Yes, God hath said, but...".
In any event, this is why the non-responsive, also why discussing anything with them on an honest scripture level or even a level of common sense reason is futile, as they will ignore the hard questions, the scripture, that smokes them out for what they are, that is, false prophets, liars, and, again, they cling to their lies as preeminent doctrines, have their cult leaders on the throne. I think the first mistake is listening to any of these clowns, with their -ists and -isms.
1 Corinthians 1:11-13 For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." Has Christ been divided [into more corrupt denominations than Baskin Robbins has flavors]? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
You know something else, it really is such wickedness, how they have no problem adding false doctrines to the word of God, and taking away from the word of God, of the Holy Bible, despite:
2 Peter 2:1-3 But there were also false prophets in Israel, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will cleverly teach destructive heresies and even deny the Master who bought them. In this way, they will bring sudden destruction on themselves. Many will follow their evil teaching and shameful immorality. And because of these teachers, the way of truth will be slandered. In their greed they will make up clever lies to get hold of your money. But God condemned them long ago, and their destruction will not be delayed.
Matthew 6:24 No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money. [And no, for you inveterate common sense challenged, this isn't saying you can serve lies and the devil, because they aren't money.]
Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Matthew 7:19-23 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
Ezekiel 22:28 And her prophets have smeared whitewash for them, seeing false visions and divining lies for them, saying, "Thus says the Lord GOD," when the LORD has not spoken.
Jeremiah 14:14 And the Lord said to me, "The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I did not send them, nor did I command them or speak to them. They are prophesying to you a lying vision, worthless divination, and the deceit of their own minds."
Jeremiah 23:21 I did not send the prophets, yet they ran; I did not speak to them, yet they prophesied.
Revelation 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and ALL LIARS, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 22:14-15 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Lastly, I don't know what sort of fool puts aside the word of God, for lies. At least Esau got a bowl of soup.