Whom Jesus called dead in “let the dead bury the dead”(Lk9-60)?

[stephengoswami]

As Christ warned repeatedly that unrepentant people will die in their sins, it is easy to guess who are they. We see that pride resists love-God and derivative repentance. For that Satan, the spirit of pride, fell from heaven of life running towards soul suicide.
Some may ask “when souls are eternal how they can die?”
Our souls (personalities) are made of spiritual organs made of spiritual atoms bonded together with spiritual love. When we fell from heaven following pride-devil our internal love-bond began to diminish as pride is enemy to love. Only culture of repentance could turn us to love, which would have strengthened the internal bond. But proud we resisted repentance and continued to culture pride. It finally dissolves that bond here or after death. Then falling apart we lose soul integrity i.e. personality as we see in stark mad people here. Though soul dies, the degenerate soul parts remain to suffer eternally from their likes.
Those, who still retaining personality but resisting repentance, is potentially dead as they are sure to lose it in future. So these worldly people are called dead by Christ.

 

[tomlapalm]

As Christ warned repeatedly that unrepentant people will die in their sins, it is easy to guess who are they. We see that pride resists love-God and derivative repentance. For that Satan, the spirit of pride, fell from heaven of life running towards soul suicide.
Some may ask “when souls are eternal how they can die?”
Our souls (personalities) are made of spiritual organs made of spiritual atoms bonded together with spiritual love. When we fell from heaven following pride-devil our internal love-bond began to diminish as pride is enemy to love. Only culture of repentance could turn us to love, which would have strengthened the internal bond. But proud we resisted repentance and continued to culture pride. It finally dissolves that bond here or after death. Then falling apart we lose soul integrity i.e. personality as we see in stark mad people here. Though soul dies, the degenerate soul parts remain to suffer eternally from their likes.
Those, who still retaining personality but resisting repentance, is potentially dead as they are sure to lose it in future. So these worldly people are called dead by Christ.

Not just worldly, but unrepentant, those who have not accepted Christ as savior. They are unresponsive to spiritual stimuli,
Spiritual death is separation from God, our sustainer of life spiritual or physical. A Holy God cannot allow sin in His presence. Spiritually dead are those who have not/ will not accept His pardon through the cross and are separated from God. John 14 "except ye abide"

The soul will always exist , but outside of time when this physical world is gone.Time exists only here in this cosmos

 

[tomlapalm]

How have you realized you fell with Satan?

 

[Gurucam]

As Christ warned repeatedly that unrepentant people will die in their sins, it is easy to guess who are they. We see that pride resists love-God and derivative repentance. For that Satan, the spirit of pride, fell from heaven of life running towards soul suicide.
Some may ask “when souls are eternal how they can die?”
Our souls (personalities) are made of spiritual organs made of spiritual atoms bonded together with spiritual love. When we fell from heaven following pride-devil our internal love-bond began to diminish as pride is enemy to love. Only culture of repentance could turn us to love, which would have strengthened the internal bond. But proud we resisted repentance and continued to culture pride. It finally dissolves that bond here or after death. Then falling apart we lose soul integrity i.e. personality as we see in stark mad people here. Though soul dies, the degenerate soul parts remain to suffer eternally from their likes.
Those, who still retaining personality but resisting repentance, is potentially dead as they are sure to lose it in future. So these worldly people are called dead by Christ.

Jesus said to a married man, with wife, children, father, mother and friends: follow me and 'let the dead bury their dead'. Do not look back for if you do look back, you are not fit to be my disciple.

In other words walk clearly and totally away from wife, children, father, mother friends etc. who are spiritually dead, then you are fit to follow me.

Some of Jesus' disciples were indeed sepertated from their wife, children, fathers, mothers and friends because they were all dead. These disciples could not look bck to their wife, children, fathers, mothers and friends. They could not go back to them. They had to walk away from them. They could not look back. They had to abandon wife, children, fathers, mothers and friends.

 

[tomlapalm]

Jesus said to a married man, with wife, children, father, mother and friends: follow me and 'let the dead bury their dead'. Do not look back for if you do look back, you are not fit to be my disciple.

In other words walk clearly and totally away from wife, children, father, mother friends etc. who are spiritually dead, then you are fit to follow me.

Some of Jesus' disciples were indeed sepertated from their wife, children, fathers, mothers and friends because they were all dead. These disciples could not look bck to their wife, children, fathers, mothers and friends. They could not go back to them. They had to walk away from them. They could not look back. They had to abandon wife, children, fathers, mothers and friends.

Luk 9:57 ¶ And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain [man] said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
Luk 9:58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air [have] nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay [his] head.
Luk 9:59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Luk 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

"bury my Father" was a excuse to wait, The father might not have been dead, but in the tradition, the son was obligated until the father died. This was a different reason that the others in the same chapter. This is not about chosing between God and Family but acting when called for the higher purpose.


The spiritual dead burying the physical dead is compared to the man "follow me" and "go preach" suggesting an insuffecient excuse. and the importance of spiritual obedience and focusing on the more important spiritual things

How have you come to realize you fell with Satan?

 

[TruthSetsFree]

As Christ warned repeatedly that unrepentant people will die in their sins, it is easy to guess who are they. We see that pride resists love-God and derivative repentance. For that Satan, the spirit of pride, fell from heaven of life running towards soul suicide.
Some may ask “when souls are eternal how they can die?”
Our souls (personalities) are made of spiritual organs made of spiritual atoms bonded together with spiritual love. When we fell from heaven following pride-devil our internal love-bond began to diminish as pride is enemy to love. Only culture of repentance could turn us to love, which would have strengthened the internal bond. But proud we resisted repentance and continued to culture pride. It finally dissolves that bond here or after death. Then falling apart we lose soul integrity i.e. personality as we see in stark mad people here. Though soul dies, the degenerate soul parts remain to suffer eternally from their likes.
Those, who still retaining personality but resisting repentance, is potentially dead as they are sure to lose it in future. So these worldly people are called dead by Christ.

those who do not have Jesus Christ IN PERSON are also dead or half dead, even if they belive in Him

His Presence (meaning actual or tangible PResence) is found ONLY in HIs Church... the RCC

 

[tomlapalm]

those who do not have Jesus Christ IN PERSON are also dead or half dead, even if they belive in Him

His Presence (meaning actual or tangible PResence) is found ONLY in HIs Church... the RCC

1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
plain and simple.

I don't see a organization or an agent in the mix

 

[Princely]

Isn't it more important to know who lives?

"all those who do right to the resurrection of life."

'Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.' "

And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"
He said to him, "What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?"
So he answered and said, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,' and 'your neighbor as yourself.' "
And He said to him, "You have answered rightly; do this and you will live."

Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who heed it will live.

As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.

"When a wicked man turns from wickedness and does what is right and just because of this he shall live."

 

[tomlapalm]

We lived "right" because we have an reestablished relationship with God and have accepted our status and HIs provision on His terms. The same decision we make to receive eternal life establishes the "want to" to live right. We don't get eternal life by living right. We live right because we are new creatures and don't want to hurt the relationship with Christ.

Accepting Christ as Savior is the first turn toward righteousness.

 

[Gurucam]

Luk 9:57 ¶ And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain [man] said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
Luk 9:58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air [have] nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay [his] head.
Luk 9:59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Luk 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

"bury my Father" was a excuse to wait, The father might not have been dead, but in the tradition, the son was obligated until the father died. This was a different reason that the others in the same chapter. This is not about chosing between God and Family but acting when called for the higher purpose.


The spiritual dead burying the physical dead is compared to the man "follow me" and "go preach" suggesting an insuffecient excuse. and the importance of spiritual obedience and focusing on the more important spiritual things

How have you come to realize you fell with Satan?

No comparisons or back up explainations are necessary. Simply continue to quote the verse which follows those which you quoted. Then the message will be made absolutely clear.

Luke: 9 verse: 62 And Jesus said onto him, No man, having put his hand on the plough, and look back, (i.e. no one who look back to his wife, children, father, mother, friends who are spiritually dead) is fit for the kingdom of God.

Luke 14 verse: 26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Hating your past life, including hating your wife and children, which were under the law, is a requirement if you are to be a follower of Jesus. The other requirement is to walk away from them and do not look back.

Matthew: 10 verses: 34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

Matthew: 19 verse:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life. 30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

Mark 10 verses: 29 to 31 29 And Jesus answered and said, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my sake, and the gospel's, 30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.31 But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.

Does this not all say that Jesus came to seperate spiritually aware people from unaware people even if this meant destroying mariages and relationships that were forged and unpheld under the Old legal Moses-ian based systems?

Were not these disciples (who walked away for their wives, children, etc. and not look back) good Moses-ian followers?

Hating your past life, including hating your wife and children, which were under the law, is a requirement if you are to be a follower of Jesus. The other requirement is to walk away from them and do not look back. Getting new spouses (wives and husbands) and children which is done according to the mind of the Spirit of Jesus as discerned within one's own heart, is the way of Christians.
​

 

[tomlapalm]

I wasn't challeging the truth of your stated position but it doesn't applty to verses 57 to 60. Which the excuse is legalism or keeping the law over a decision for Jesus.

Yes we should make a positive decision for Jesus, and it may involve rejecting those who do not. but you make it seem that a decision to follow Jesus is automatically a decision to reject family. This is not God's way. nor is it what the 4 verses are implying.


Consider the conversatuion from verse 54. the disciples recognized Jesus had the power and authority to call fire from heaven, but they didn't understand the purpose and Jesus's diety. they were placing importance of the physical over the spiritual desires of God.

Verse 57 show a volunteer to follow Jesus, (wasn't called) and Jesus show him it is a walk by faith alone without physical comforts.

but verses 58 shows one who is called but chooses to continue in the Law and delay his acceptance of the call. Jesus would demand immediate obedience suggesting the spiritual dead can wait to complete the tradition.

The last committed to follow Jesus but reluctantly because it was important to keep ties to the family, or the back up plan rather than committing all to Jesus immediately.

the position that Jesus came to destroy what He instituted is wrong and is used by many as an excuse to divorce. Jesus came to save individuals and families through obedient individuals. Not to save one and reject another. although as you say it may be necessary to choose God over family at some point.

 

[Gurucam]

I wasn't challeging the truth of your stated position but it doesn't applty to verses 57 to 60. Which the excuse is legalism or keeping the law over a decision for Jesus.

Yes we should make a positive decision for Jesus, and it may involve rejecting those who do not. but you make it seem that a decision to follow Jesus is automatically a decision to reject family. This is not God's way. nor is it what the 4 verses are implying.


Consider the conversatuion from verse 54. the disciples recognized Jesus had the power and authority to call fire from heaven, but they didn't understand the purpose and Jesus's diety. they were placing importance of the physical over the spiritual desires of God.

Verse 57 show a volunteer to follow Jesus, (wasn't called) and Jesus show him it is a walk by faith alone without physical comforts.

but verses 58 shows one who is called but chooses to continue in the Law and delay his acceptance of the call. Jesus would demand immediate obedience suggesting the spiritual dead can wait to complete the tradition.

The last committed to follow Jesus but reluctantly because it was important to keep ties to the family, or the back up plan rather than committing all to Jesus immediately.

the position that Jesus came to destroy what He instituted is wrong and is used by many as an excuse to divorce. Jesus came to save individuals and families through obedient individuals. Not to save one and reject another. although as you say it may be necessary to choose God over family at some point.

I do not adjust or modify the brazen and plain Truth in the KJV N.T.

Salvation and deliverance is hinged only on one knowing and adapting the untained and unmodified Truth in the KJV N.T.

These revelations do not require human sythesizing.

To soften them or change them in anyway is to corrupt scriptures and so deny unsuspecting readers the opportunity to have Truth which can put them on the path to salation and deliverance. This is a grave error which is causing many to be called but the very great majority (i.e. all but a few) to err and not be chosen.

You topic is 'let the dead bury their dead'

'The dead' describes all unaware people including everyone who esteem the Ten Commandments. Such people canot be under the Spirit. They are under the law and being in Christ (i.e. following Jesus) is not for them.

It seems that traditional Christinity use scriptures to regulate the social and moral behavior of their charges instead of delivering the frank and brazen Truth with is required for salvation and deliverance.

Social and moral management of humans is absolutely not a Christian commission. The social and moral management of people is a Satanic commission which was committed onto Peter. This is equlivant to the old Moses-ian ways that is under the Ten Commandments. This is absolutely not for Christian.

The Christian commission is founded on freedom, liberty and justification to transgress all social, moral and religous laws (including the Ten Commandments). The Christain commission is without any laws and this commission was committed onto Paul and Paul alone.​

 

[tomlapalm]

I do not adjust or modify the brazen and plain Truth in the KJV N.T.

Salvation and deliverance is hinged only on one knowing and adapting the untained and unmodified Truth in the KJV N.T.

These revelations do not require human sythesizing.

To soften them or change them in anyway is to corrupt scriptures and so deny unsuspecting readers the opportunity to have Truth which can put them on the path to salation and deliverance. This is a grave error which is causing many to be called but the very great majority (i.e. all but a few) to err and not be chosen.

You topic is 'let the dead bury their dead'

'The dead' describes all unaware people including everyone who esteem the Ten Commandments. Such people canot be under the Spirit. They are under the law and being in Christ (i.e. following Jesus) is not for them.

It seems that traditional Christinity use scriptures to regulate the social and moral behavior of their charges instead of delivering the frank and brazen Truth with is required for salvation and deliverance.

Social and moral management of humans is absolutely not a Christian commission. The social and moral management of people is a Satanic commission which was committed onto Peter. This is equlivant to the old Moses-ian ways that is under the Ten Commandments. This is absolutely not for Christian.

The Christian commission is founded on freedom, liberty and justification to transgress all social, moral and religous laws (including the Ten Commandments). The Christain commission is without any laws and this commission was committed onto Paul and Paul alone.​

let set the basis for truth.

Christianity is not based on any law but a relationship with God as Jesus Christ. The purpose of the law of moses was to preserve Israel as a people and culture for the Messiah to come and redeemed all of the world. We are free from sin, not bound to it. In freedom, we have choices based upon spiritual existance or life.

Christians don't want to sin , not because if the consequences of a law, but because it would disappoint Jesus.
Any moral behavior comes from that relationship with a Holy God. We try to be holy, because He is holy.

The dead are spiritually unresponsive to spiritual stimuli. a knowledge of The Law of moses is not necessary for salvation. Just as we can be saved from any culture, upon knowing we need Christ. The spiritually dead are everywhere also"He who has ear to hear, let him hear" suggests there are some who cannot/ will not hear, and remain spiritually dead.

being moral without Christ, on our own merit is as you say, a trap.
Being moral with Christ is freedom

 

[Gurucam]

let set the basis for truth.

Christianity is not based on any law but a relationship with God as Jesus Christ. The purpose of the law of moses was to preserve Israel as a people and culture for the Messiah to come and redeemed all of the world. We are free from sin, not bound to it. In freedom, we have choices based upon spiritual existance or life.

Christians don't want to sin , not because if the consequences of a law, but because it would disappoint Jesus.
Any moral behavior comes from that relationship with a Holy God. We try to be holy, because He is holy.

The dead are spiritually unresponsive to spiritual stimuli. a knowledge of The Law of moses is not necessary for salvation. Just as we can be saved from any culture, upon knowing we need Christ. The spiritually dead are everywhere also"He who has ear to hear, let him hear" suggests there are some who cannot/ will not hear, and remain spiritually dead.

being moral without Christ, on our own merit is as you say, a trap.
Being moral with Christ is freedom

Christians do not and cannot sin. Even when Christians transgress the Ten Commandments they get no sin.​

 

[tomlapalm]

no, we sin often, but we are forgiven and already pardoned. The ten commandments don't apply to Christians. We are under a new covenant.

 

[Gurucam]

no, we sin often, but we are forgiven and already pardoned. The ten commandments don't apply to Christians. We are under a new covenant.

Those in Christ have God given freedom, liberty and justification to transgress the Ten Commandments and not get sin.

In fact those in Christ will be required by God to transgress the Ten Commandments. When those in Christ transgress the Ten Commandments in order to unconditionally obey precisely what the Spirit of Jesus has in mind for them to pray for, say and do as discerned within their own hearts or spirits, they are glorified by God . . . . and allocated a place next to Jesus on the right side of God.

You, who esteem the law (i.e. the Ten Commandments) in the slightest way (even as a minutest guide), are under the law. You are required to uphold all the Ten Commandments to the fullest for your righteousness. If you fail you gone through. You are difinitely not under grace and being in Christ (i.e. being Christian) is difinitely not for you.

Fact is if you perceive the slightest wisdom in the Ten Commandments you are under the law and you are not under grace. You must uphold all the laws for your righteousness. You are an Old person. You are not a New person. You are not a Christian and cannot be a Christians unitl you intuitively, naturally and spontanenously see (discern) the folly that is the law (i.e. the Ten Commandments) and you totally and completely drop the law.

You have no authority to deliver anything to aspiring Christains and Christians. If you do you are a false prophet who came in Jesus' name. You will misguide many.

This is Truth, revealed clearly now in the fullness of time. Let no one fool you with erronous doctrines, the likes of which dominates and corrupt traditional Christianity and so deny you (and all but a few) the path to salvation and deliverance.

I am here to give you the opportunity to have the path to Truth in these last days.​

 

[tomlapalm]

the Law of Moses only applied to the Hebrews between the time of Moses and Jesus, not to me or you or Abraham. You are misapplying scripture that was written to Jews that were based in the Law, whereas I know my condemnation without the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses has the same effect on me as the Laws of Trinadad and Tobago. I am not there , they do not apply where I am. We as sinners know we transgress own on laws by which we are condemned also.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

 

[Gurucam]

the Law of Moses only applied to the Hebrews between the time of Moses and Jesus, not to me or you or Abraham. You are misapplying scripture that was written to Jews that were based in the Law, whereas I know my condemnation without the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses has the same effect on me as the Laws of Trinadad and Tobago. I am not there , they do not apply where I am. We as sinners know we transgress own on laws by which we are condemned also.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Indeed the law of Moses could be likened to the laws of Trinidad & Tobago. They do not contribute to salvation and deliverance. They are simply schoolmasters given for managing the behavior of people.

Check this link and read the thread.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=84549​

 

[stephengoswami]

Laws of every nation have some relevant to us, some not. Actually Law of Moses is from more ancient laws selectively taken.
Christ likewise took the 1st and 2nd commandment and discarded the rest. His root is Love-God.
But we, each one, have fallen from Love-heaven like Adam and Eve, rejecting Love-God to opt for Devil, the pride-power god. This is soul-suicide as I have explained in my OP.
When on the verge of suicide I sought a savior. Finding Christ, who showed the path of repentance (turning away from mistake and sticking to right), I stuck to it and was saved. Automatically the unrepentant dead fell away. I had not to hate any and that is a sin.

Actually being in Christ my deadly carnal love to them sublimated to spiritual. To rise to that, I had to break the bond of carnal love to rise to spiritual. So Christ told to leave them for mine and their betterment.

Really it happened so, as my atheist parents believed in Christ seeing my fruits. If I hadnt left them to cleave to christ, it wouldnt have happened.

 

[Gurucam]

Laws of every nation have some relevant to us, some not. Actually Law of Moses is from more ancient laws selectively taken.
Christ likewise took the 1st and 2nd commandment and discarded the rest. His root is Love-God.
But we, each one, have fallen from Love-heaven like Adam and Eve, rejecting Love-God to opt for Devil, the pride-power god. This is soul-suicide as I have explained in my OP.
When on the verge of suicide I sought a savior. Finding Christ, who showed the path of repentance (turning away from mistake and sticking to right), I stuck to it and was saved. Automatically the unrepentant dead fell away. I had not to hate any and that is a sin.

Actually being in Christ my deadly carnal love to them sublimated to spiritual. To rise to that, I had to break the bond of carnal love to rise to spiritual. So Christ told to leave them for mine and their betterment.

Really it happened so, as my atheist parents believed in Christ seeing my fruits. If I hadnt left them to cleave to christ, it wouldnt have happened.

The law was given to the followers of Moses to serve as the law of the land for people who had no land at that time. Those laws were not an indication or confirmation of any eternal law or laws from God.

However in order for those laws to work among those people who were the followers of Moses, they had to be fooled into believing that thiose laws (i.e. Ten Commandments) were divine absolute laws from God.

Fact is, by the time Jesus came to earth in a physical human body, it was time to confirm the Truth which is that the Ten Commandments were no absolute laws from God.

Jesus on his own and through Paul confirmed that the law (i.e. the Ten Commandments) were divinely given not as relevelations of Truth but solely as a tool or devise (i.e. a schoolmaster) for guiding and managing the essentially physically driven behavior of unaware people (in this case the Jew who followed Moses) . . . until they become spiritually aware and in Chrst.

Then the law is of no value or use to them. Then they will naturally and spontaneously drop these laws and even transgress them when they are called to do so by precisely what the Spirit of Jesus has in mind for them to pray for, say and do as discerned within their own hearts or spirits.

Today we have the laws of our land which are far more refined than Moses laws. Moses laws are no longer required. They are certainly not required when it come to seeking salvation and deliverance. In fact any recognition or esteeming of the Ten Commandments will spiritually re-kill one who is awakening to spiritual awareness.

There is no shades of loves or different kinds of love. God is love and urgings of love which arises and are sustained naturally and spontaneously within our individual hearts or spirits for those specific people, things and circumstance in our environment reveals to us God's individualized will for us. We are to obey these urgings of love unconditionally even if we have to transgress the Ten Commandments.​