Where Does It Say In The Bible That You Go Directly To Heaven When You Die?

[genuineoriginal]

If you will examine the passage you will see that the spirits of just men is indeed in heaven:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb.12:22-23).​

If there are no spirits of just men in heaven then why did the author of Hebrews tell them to come to those spirits?

Because you are supposed to have the same moral character as the righteous men made perfect.

According to the way that you are reading these verses we must believe that God is not in the heavenly Jerusalem either.

You are reading the verses wrong if you are thinking they say you are already in heaven and that it is a list of the kinds of people that are in heaven.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Because you are supposed to have the same moral character as the righteous men made perfect.

Nothing you say makes any sense.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Nothing you say makes any sense.

The problem is not in what I am saying, the problem is in what you are refusing to accept.

 

[Derf]

So will he be raised in a "natural" body or a "spiritual" body? And in your opinion what is the difference between the two bodies?

And tell me what kind of body do the men spoken of in the following verse possess:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb.12:22-23).​

Did I answer this yet? I think I missed it.

The biggest difference I can tell is that the "spiritual body" will be incorruptible. It won't decay or wear out (though it might still mature). Will it have some type of flesh? Something that can be touched and has nerve endings or something that allows us to feel? Something that includes eyes? Yes. It will have all of that.

There may be parts of it that don't work the same or do the same function, perhaps, but it will look like a physical, fleshly body. Like Jesus's did after He was raised from the dead.

 

[Derf]

GT, you put such good work into these posts, and I wanted to talk through them. I'll start with this one.

Those righteous of the Old Testament still waited for the day Jesus came and died for the world.

No one was made perfect until Jesus came and died.

And I'm questioning whether they have already been made perfect, or if it is still a future event.

Faith in Jesus' blood makes those belonging to God perfect, even those who died before Jesus’ ministry on earth; however, they still had to wait till Jesus' blood was shed. The Old Testament righteous people who died before Jesus came to earth, they did not in their time get to see the promised salvation through Jesus Christ, the grace that was to come (1 Peter 1:10-12; 2 Peter 1:19; Romans 16:25-26; 1 Corinthians 4:1).

I agree with your first premise (I colored it blue), but not necessarily your second, which implies that OT believers have realized the perfection promised to both us and them. Your verses support your first, but don't speak to the second. Your next quote enforces what I'm saying:

Paul says about the faithful in the Old Testament times, "These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect."

Are we perfected? If not, then how can they be perfected before us, when they won't be perfected without us. If we are perfected, it doesn't seem to show very well sometimes.

God's grace through faith in Jesus made the spirits of the righteous, those who had died before Jesus, they in the spirit were made perfect together with Paul and the other first Christians (Hebrews 12:23; 11:39-40).

Jerry was using Heb 12:23, for this purpose, too. I questioned that use and still do. Heb 11:3-40 says they either aren't yet made perfect, or we are already made perfect. In a sense, we are. But in another sense, we aren't. And if we aren't perfect in EVERY sense, how can we be called perfect, except as a promise of a future event--the "foregone conclusion" idea I mentioned to Jerry. And if Paul is talking about our perfection as a foregone conclusion not yet realized, then he could just as easily be talking about the OT saints that way, too.

The Old Testament faithful were alive in the spirit watching from above. Paul says, "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses..." Jesus also tells us Abraham waited to see his day, Abraham saw it and was glad (John 8:56). Abraham died, yet was alive in the spirit.

I think you too hastily use this verse for your argument. Abraham "saw" Jesus' day. That doesn't mean he is living in Jesus day, as "saw" is past tense.

There were those who disobeyed and died before Jesus came to earth, though they were dead their spirits went to a prison, unlike the spirits of the righteous.
After Jesus was crucified, he preached to those who were dead, he preached to the spirits in prison, the spirits of those who had died and disobeyed long ago (see 1 Peter 3:18-19). Those people who disobeyed and died before learning of Jesus...Jesus preached the gospel to them, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit (1 Peter 4:5-6). For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring us to God, even those who lived and died before Jesus.
THAT is SCRIPTURE. That is the WORD OF GOD. Jesus died FOR ALL. That includes the people who DIED BEFORE HE CAME.

I have no complaint about saying Jesus died for all. I'm just trying to figure out when His grace is applied to them. Is it applied in spurts--at one time to the spirits, and another time to the bodies of dead believers? Maybe. How does one "live according to God in regard to the spirit"? Is this similar to Paul's fight with his flesh? Seems like it. And if so, how does it apply to a fleshless spirit?

Jesus came to earth and taught those on earth. Then Jesus descended to the spirits in prison to preach to them, to those who disobeyed long ago. Jesus then ascended higher than all the heavens. Jesus filled the whole universe (see Ephesians 4:10).

These scriptures show we have living, thinking spirits that live on after the death of the body. Some spirits go with those who disobey, and spirits of the righteous live in heaven. These scriptures show that our spirits live on, and how Jesus filled the whole universe.

I'm not sure these scriptures show that. Especially in light of so many scriptures that seem to look forward to a resurrection, and without a resurrection of the dead, we are a people most miserable. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. [1Co 15:19 KJV]. And how could we be miserable when our spirits are in heaven with Christ--wouldn't that be a blissful state, even if our bodies were never resurrected? Yet Paul seems to think that without the resurrection, we are miserable. Perfection of a man must include perfection of his body, since his body is a part of him. A human without a body is...what? Do we know? I think we assume the spirit is an independent part of the human, but I'm not so sure.

Rejoice at Jesus saving us, and rejoice at knowing without a doubt that the Word of God tells us we have spirits that live on.

...but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven. [Luk 10:20 KJV]
For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard [them]. [Luk 10:24 KJV]

So, if the spirits of the OT saints lived on, they were not free to go wherever they wanted, but were at least held in some holding place where they could NOT see the things Jesus was doing. They were not free spirits, but bound.

Or maybe they still haven't heard or seen those things Jesus did and is doing.

 

[God's Truth]

GT, you put such good work into these posts, and I wanted to talk through them. I'll start with this one.

I like your respect and kindness. Thank you. You put a lot of deep discussions into your posts and that is another reason why I enjoy discussing with you.

And I'm questioning whether they have already been made perfect,

They have been made perfect. Jesus went to hell and then he ascended to heaven; he took captives with him. He filled the whole universe.

Ephesians 4:10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

or if it is still a future event.

No, being made perfect happened at the shedding of blood.


Christians are made perfect and holy

When one is saved, they are made perfect and holy, they are without sins; they are born again with a new life starting over.

It seems there is a false humbleness in some who call themselves Christian, and they show this false humbleness when they protest being called a saint or holy. However what do the scriptures say?

Hebrews 10:10 and by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy

Hebrews 11:40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Hebrews 12:13 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Hebrews 2:11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.

John 17:19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified

Ephesians 5:26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

 

[God's Truth]

I agree with your first premise (I colored it blue), but not necessarily your second, which implies that OT believers have realized the perfection promised to both us and them. Your verses support your first, but don't speak to the second. Your next quote enforces what I'm saying:
Are we perfected? If not, then how can they be perfected before us, when they won't be perfected without us. If we are perfected, it doesn't seem to show very well sometimes.

Well, Paul lived in Jesus' generation. Paul lived in the time Jesus lived and died and ascended.

Jerry was using Heb 12:23, for this purpose, too. I questioned that use and still do. Heb 11:3-40 says they either aren't yet made perfect, or we are already made perfect. In a sense, we are. But in another sense, we aren't. And if we aren't perfect in EVERY sense, how can we be called perfect, except as a promise of a future event--the "foregone conclusion" idea I mentioned to Jerry. And if Paul is talking about our perfection as a foregone conclusion not yet realized, then he could just as easily be talking about the OT saints that way, too.

I think all the scriptures I gave calling us who believe and obey Jesus are perfect and holy.

I think you too hastily use this verse for your argument. Abraham "saw" Jesus' day. That doesn't mean he is living in Jesus day, as "saw" is past tense.

I believe that Abraham saw Jesus' birth and baptism and ministry.

Salvation through Jesus was the plan made by God before the creation of anything.

Jesus coming to earth was the most important time ever.

 

[God's Truth]

I have no complaint about saying Jesus died for all. I'm just trying to figure out when His grace is applied to them. Is it applied in spurts--at one time to the spirits, and another time to the bodies of dead believers? Maybe. How does one "live according to God in regard to the spirit"? Is this similar to Paul's fight with his flesh? Seems like it. And if so, how does it apply to a fleshless spirit?

Well, they were already judged by men in regard to their body, it is done. However, they can live according to God in the spirit.

I'm not sure these scriptures show that. Especially in light of so many scriptures that seem to look forward to a resurrection, and without a resurrection of the dead, we are a people most miserable.

Are you forgetting the part that says if the dead don't rise than Jesus didn't?

If Jesus didn't rise, then he is dead and not interceding for us and everything he said would not be true.

1 Corinthians 15:16-18 King James Version (KJV)
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

 

[Derf]

Well, they were already judged by men in regard to their body, it is done. However, they can live according to God in the spirit.

Can one "live" without a body of some sort?
[Rev 20:5 KJV] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

If they "lived not again", but they were alive in spirit in hades, are these concepts not contradictory? Most of the bible speaks of "living" as referring to having a body. What about the previous verse:
[Rev 20:4 KJV] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is described in vs 4 as "the first resurrection". So it seems that those that were beheaded were not "living" prior to their resurrection.

Are you forgetting the part that says if the dead don't rise than Jesus didn't?

If Jesus didn't rise, then he is dead and not interceding for us and everything he said would not be true.

1 Corinthians 15:16-18 King James Version (KJV)
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

I'm not forgetting that, I'm using that in my argument. What I'm suggesting is that those verses tell us that without the resurrection ("if the dead rise not"), there is something missing ("if Christ be not raised"seems to indicate that none of our hopes can be realized if Christ was not raised bodily--just His spirit wasn't enough) --that Jesus showed us how the dead are raised by rising in bodily form. And while such an idea does not contradict the idea of body-less spirits being in heaven, it suggests that a resurrection of the body is needed to be whole/complete/perfect.

And while I agree that Jesus' blood makes us holy, perfect, sanctified, the effect of such is not fully realized in this life, since we still might sin: 1Jn 2:1.

So if we are saved not only from death (though we still have death in our future if Christ doesn't return first), and if we still have sin we need an advocate for, then our salvation, though assured, is not yet complete.

Thus, calling our salvation complete is in regard to the sufficient causes of its completion, and not to the necessary results of completion, since they haven't happened yet.

And if they haven't happened yet, including the salvation from death, from which we are saved by a future resurrection, then we aren't yet made perfect, except in promise and expectation. The same should be said of others who are not to be made perfect prior to (or "apart from") our being made perfect, according to Heb 11:39-40.

 

[Derf]

I like your respect and kindness. Thank you. You put a lot of deep discussions into your posts and that is another reason why I enjoy discussing with you.



They have been made perfect. Jesus went to hell and then he ascended to heaven; he took captives with him. He filled the whole universe.

Ephesians 4:10 He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)



No, being made perfect happened at the shedding of blood.


Christians are made perfect and holy

...

Hebrews 10:14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy

That last verse, Heb 10:14, could be saying that we are still being made holy, despite the fact that He has made us perfect forever. If we aren't yet holy enough, then even though that perfection is already established in a forever sense, it isn't complete yet. There's more work to do.

 

[God's Truth]

That last verse, Heb 10:14, could be saying that we are still being made holy, despite the fact that He has made us perfect forever. If we aren't yet holy enough, then even though that perfection is already established in a forever sense, it isn't complete yet. There's more work to do.

I believe it cannot mean two different things. People are being made holy as in more people and not more holiness. However, we have to live our new life obeying which keeps us holy.

 

[God's Truth]

Can one "live" without a body of some sort?
[Rev 20:5 KJV] But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

If they "lived not again", but they were alive in spirit in hades, are these concepts not contradictory? Most of the bible speaks of "living" as referring to having a body. What about the previous verse

That is a strong point you make. However, living is always about being in the Truth with God. Dead is always synonymous with sin and hell.

[Rev 20:4 KJV] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is described in vs 4 as "the first resurrection". So it seems that those that were beheaded were not "living" prior to their resurrection.

Try reading that scripture more carefully, for it is a vision of what was going to happen to people, and not that they were living headless in heaven.

Are you forgetting the part that says if the dead don't rise than Jesus didn't?

If Jesus didn't rise, then he is dead and not interceding for us and everything he said would not be true.

1 Corinthians 15:16-18 King James Version (KJV)
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
I'm not forgetting that, I'm using that in my argument. What I'm suggesting is that those verses tell us that without the resurrection ("if the dead rise not"), there is something missing ("if Christ be not raised"seems to indicate that none of our hopes can be realized if Christ was not raised bodily--just His spirit wasn't enough) --that Jesus showed us how the dead are raised by rising in bodily form. And while such an idea does not contradict the idea of body-less spirits being in heaven, it suggests that a resurrection of the body is needed to be whole/complete/perfect.

No, it just means the whole thing is a lie then.
If it is not true what Jesus said about him rising and ascending to heaven, then how is anything he said true? That is what that means.

And while I agree that Jesus' blood makes us holy, perfect, sanctified, the effect of such is not fully realized in this life, since we still might sin: 1Jn 2:1.

Of course it is realized, if you believe what is written.

So if we are saved not only from death (though we still have death in our future if Christ doesn't return first), and if we still have sin we need an advocate for, then our salvation, though assured, is not yet complete.

Thus, calling our salvation complete is in regard to the sufficient causes of its completion, and not to the necessary results of completion, since they haven't happened yet.

We are saved now, and we have to keep obeying to be saved after we die, and when Jesus comes again.

And if they haven't happened yet, including the salvation from death, from which we are saved by a future resurrection, then we aren't yet made perfect, except in promise and expectation. The same should be said of others who are not to be made perfect prior to (or "apart from") our being made perfect, according to Heb 11:39-40.

The scriptures are simple; we are made perfect when we are saved now.

Jesus’ blood cleans us and makes us perfect.

There is no way anyone can get around that.

Hebrews 10:10 and by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy

Hebrews 11:40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Hebrews 12:13 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Hebrews 2:11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.

John 17:19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified

 

[Derf]

I believe it cannot mean two different things. People are being made holy as in more people and not more holiness. However, we have to live our new life obeying which keeps us holy.

I think your interpretation is a valid one--more people being made holy. But I still don't think our holiness is complete--it's still in progress. You can tell by how pretty much everyone on this forum snaps at others at times--doesn't love his neighbor like himself, in other words.

I'll respond to your next post when I have time.

 

[eleos]

Moreover, where does the theology that people are "looking down on us" from heaven?

Where does that come from?

I noticed in during the Billy Graham funeral his daughter said that "Daddy was in heaven", but then she turned around and quoted 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 which literally contradicts that theology.

People really are confused about what the Bible states concerning the state of the dead.

Not only is this sad, but also extremely dangerous.

***
Yes it is dangerous. Following are things to be considered.

The truth of the State of the Dean IS most important here are some reasons why and some things to think about.

Are The Dead Really Dead?

Adam was created by God in the beginning.

1. How did we get here in the first place?

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Genesis 2:7.

Answer: God made us from dust in the beginning.

The spirits of both the righteous and the wicked return to God. Their bodies return to dust.

2. What happens when a person dies?

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Answer: The body turns to dust again, and the spirit goes back to God, who gave it. The spirit of every person who dies--whether righteous or wicked--returns to God at death.

There is nothing mysterious about the spirit that returns to God at death. It is the breath of life.

3. What is the "spirit" that returns to God at death?

"The body without the spirit ["breath," see margin] is dead."
James 2:26. "The spirit of God ["the breath which God gave him," see margin] is in my nostrils."
Job 27:3.

Answer: The spirit that returns to God at death is the breath of life. Nowhere in all of God's book does the "spirit" have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the "breath of life" and nothing more.

These four people are four souls.

4. What is a "soul"?

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
Genesis 2:7.

Answer: A soul is a living being. A soul is always a combination of two things: body plus breath. A soul cannot exist unless body and breath are combined. God's Word teaches that we are souls.

5. Do souls die?

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die."
Ezekiel 18:20. "Every living soul died in the sea." Revelation 16:3.
Answer: According to God's Word, souls do die! We are souls, and souls die. Man is mortal (Job 4:17). Only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15, 16). The concept of an undying, immortal soul goes against the Bible, which teaches that souls are subject to death.

6. Do good people go to heaven when they die?

"All that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth." John 5:28, 29. "David ... is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day." "For David is not ascended into the heavens." Acts 2:29, 34. "If I wait, the grave is mine house." Job 17:13.
Answer: No, people do not go either to heaven or hell at death. They go to their graves to await the resurrection day.

7. How much does one know or comprehend after death?

"The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10. "The dead praise not the Lord." Psalms 115:17.

Answer: God says that the dead know absolutely nothing!
Though millions think it is possible, the dead cannot communicate with the living.

8. But can't the dead communicate with the living, and aren't they aware of what the living are doing?

"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." "His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them." Job 14:12, 21. "Neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:6.

Answer: No, the dead cannot contact the living, nor do they know what the living are doing. They are dead. Their thoughts have perished (Psalms 146:4).

Jesus calls death "sleep." It is a state of total unconsciousness.

9. Jesus called the unconscious state of the dead "sleep" in John 11:11-14. How long will they sleep?
"So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep." Job 14:12.

"The day of the Lord will come ... in the which the heavens shall pass away." 2 Peter 3:10.
Answer: The dead will sleep until the great day of the Lord at the end of the world. In death, humans are totally unconscious with no activity or knowledge of any kind.

The righteous will be raised to life and given immortality at Jesus' second coming.

10. What happens to the righteous dead at the second coming of Christ?

"Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:12. "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, ... and the dead in Christ shall rise ... and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17. "We shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, ... and the dead shall be raised incorruptible. ... For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.
Answer: They will be rewarded. They will be raised, given immortal bodies, and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. There would be no purpose in a resurrection if people were taken to heaven at death.

The devil's first lie to Eve was "You won't die" - a statement completely contrary to all Scripture.

11. What was the devil's first lie?

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die." Genesis 3:4. "That old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan." Revelation 12:9.

Answer: Satan told Eve that sin would not bring death. "Ye shall not surely die," he said.

Those who believe the dead are alive become easy targets for the devil's deceptions.

12. Why did the devil lie to Eve about death? Could this subject be more important than many think?

Answer: It is one of the cornerstones of the devil's kingdom. He has worked powerful miracles down through the ages through people who claim to receive their power from the spirits of the dead. (Examples: Magicians of Egypt Exodus 7:11, Woman of Endor 1 Samuel 28:3-25, Sorcerers Daniel 2:2, A certain damsel Acts 16:16-18.)

A Solemn Warning
In the end-time Satan will again use sorcery as he did in Daniel's day to deceive the world (Revelation 18:23). Sorcery is a supernatural agency that claims to receive its power and wisdom from the spirits of the dead.

Posing as Jesus' Disciples
Posing as godly loved ones who have died, saintly clergymen who are now dead, Bible prophets, or even the apostles or disciples of Christ (2 Corinthians 11:13), Satan and his angels will deceive billions. Those who believe the dead are alive, in any form, will most assuredly be deceived.

All miracle working is not from God, because devils also work miracles.

13. Do devils really work miracles?

"They are the spirits of devils, working miracles." Revelation 16:14. "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Matthew 24:24.

Answer: Yes, indeed! Devils work incredibly convincing miracles (Revelation 13:13, 14). Satan and his angels will appear as angels of light (2 Corinthians 11:14) and, even more shocking, as Christ Himself (Matthew 24:23, 24). The universal feeling will be that Christ and His angels are leading out in a fantastic worldwide revival. The entire emphasis will seem so spiritual and be so supernatural that only God's elect will not be deceived.

The elect will not be deceived, because they firmly reject everything that is contrary to Scripture.

14. Why will God's people not be deceived?

"They received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so." Acts 17:11. "If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20.

Answer: God's people will know from their earnest study of His book that the dead are dead, not alive. Spirits of the dead do not exist. Therefore, God's people will reject all miracle workers and teachers who claim to receive special "light" or work miracles by contacting the spirits of the dead. And God's people will likewise reject as dangerous and false all teachings that claim the dead are alive in any form, anywhere.

In Moses' day, people who claimed power to communicate with the dead were stoned to death.
15. Back in Moses' day, what did God command should be done to people who taught that the dead were alive?
"A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones." Leviticus 20:27.
Answer: God insisted that wizards and others with "familiar spirits" (who claimed to be able to contact the dead) should be stoned to death. This shows how God regards the false teaching that the dead are alive.

No one in God's new kingdom will ever die. Death will cease at the destruction of Satan.

16. Will the righteous people who are raised in the resurrection ever die again?

"They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, ... Neither can they die any more." Luke 20:35, 36. "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain; for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:4.
Answer: No! Death, sorrow, crying, and tragedy will never enter into God's new kingdom.

Reincarnation is impossible. Because God says all who died, both good and evil, are in their graves.
17. Belief in reincarnation is expanding rapidly today. Is this teaching biblical?
"The living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing. ... Neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6.
Answer: Almost half the people on earth believe in reincarnation, a teaching that the soul never dies but is instead continually reborn in a different kind of body with each succeeding generation. This teaching, however, is contrary to Scripture.

The Bible Says

After death a person: returns to dust (Psalms 104:29), knows nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5), possesses no mental powers (Psalms 146:4), has nothing to do with anything on earth (Ecclesiastes 9:6), does not live (2 Kings 20:1), waits in the grave (Job 17:13), and continues not (Job 14:1, 2).

Satan's Invention

Satan invented the teaching that the dead are alive. Reincarnation, channeling, communication with spirits, spirit worship, and the "undying soul" are all inventions of Satan, with one aim to convince people that when you die you are not really dead. When people believe that the dead are alive, "spirits of devils, working miracles" (Revelation 16:14) and posing as spirits of the dead will be able to deceive and lead them astray virtually 100 percent of the time (Matthew 24:24).

Those who insist on Scripture proof for all doctrines will not be led astray by Satan.

I am thankful for the Bible, which tells us the truth on this sensitive subject of death.



THOUGHTS


1. Didn't the thief on the cross go to paradise with Christ the day He died?
No. In fact, on Sunday morning Jesus said to Mary, "I am not yet ascended to my Father." John 20:17. This shows that Christ did not go to heaven at death. Also note that the punctuation of the Bible is not inspired, but was added by men. The comma in Luke 23:43 should be placed after the words "to day" rather than before, so the passage should read, "Verily I say unto thee to day, shalt thou be with me in paradise." Or, "I'm telling you today--when it seems that I can save no one, when I myself am being crucified as a criminal--I give you the assurance today that you will be with me in paradise." Christ's kingdom is set up at His second coming (Matthew 25:31), and all the righteous of all ages will enter it at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) and not at death.

2. Doesn't the Bible speak of the "undying," "immortal" soul?
No, the undying, immortal soul is not mentioned in the Bible. The word "immortal" is found only once in the Bible, and it is in reference to God (1 Timothy 1:17).

3. At death the body returns to dust and the spirit (or breath) returns to God. But where does the soul go?
It goes nowhere. Instead, it simply ceases to exist. Two things must be combined to make a soul: body and breath. When the breath departs, the soul ceases to exist because it is a combination of two things. When you turn off a light, where does the light go? It doesn't go anywhere. It just ceases to exist. Two things must combine to make a light: a bulb and electricity. Without the combination, a light is impossible. So with the soul; unless body and breath are combined, there can be no soul. There is no such thing as a disembodied soul.

4. Does the word "soul" ever mean anything other than a living being?
Yes, it may mean also (1) life itself, or (2) the mind, or intellect. No matter which meaning is intended, the soul is still a combination of two things (body and breath), and it ceases to exist at death.

5. Can you explain John 11:26, which says, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die"?
This refers not to the first death, which all people die (Hebrews 9:27), but to the second death, which only the wicked die and from which there is no eternal resurrection (Revelation 2:11; 21:8).

6. Matthew 10:28 says, "Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul." Doesn't this prove that the soul is undying?
No, it proves the opposite. The last half of the same verse proves that souls do die. It says, "But rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." The word "soul" here means life and refers to eternal life, which is a gift (Romans 6:23) that will be given to the righteous at the last day (John 6:54). No one can take away the eternal life that God bestows. (See also Luke 12:4, 5.)

7. Doesn't 1 Peter 4:6 say the gospel was preached to dead people?
No, it says the gospel "was" preached to those who "are" dead. They are dead now, but the gospel "was" preached to them while they were yet living.

8. What about the souls crying out from under the altar in Revelation 6:9, 10? Doesn't this show that souls do not die?
No. This cry was figurative, as was the cry of Abel's blood (Genesis 4:10). The word "soul" here means people (or living beings) who had been slain for their faith. Surely no one believes that souls who die literally lie under the altar, nor do people believe that the righteous beg God to punish their enemies. Rather, the righteous beg for mercy for their enemies, as Christ did on the cross (Luke 23:34).

9. Doesn't the Bible say Christ went and preached to lost souls in hell between His crucifixion and resurrection?

No, the Bible passage in question is 1 Peter 3:18-20. The preaching was done "by the Spirit" (verse 18) in Noah's day--to people who were then living (verses 19, 20). The "spirits in prison" refers to people whose lives were in bondage to Satan. (See Psalms 142:7; Isaiah 42:6, 7; 61:1; and Luke 4:18.)

In encourage all to study this out for themselves ... it IS very important.

 

[God's Truth]

I think your interpretation is a valid one--more people being made holy. But I still don't think our holiness is complete--it's still in progress. You can tell by how pretty much everyone on this forum snaps at others at times--doesn't love his neighbor like himself, in other words.

I'll respond to your next post when I have time.

Are you trying to judge me? I am not guilty of what you claim.

As for you saying we are made holy but not holy enough...you are wrong because Jesus' blood is powerful and as the scriptures say it has made us HOLY AND PERFECT.

 

[way 2 go]

Are The Dead Really Dead?

Adam was created by God in the beginning.

1. How did we get here in the first place?

"And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Genesis 2:7.

Answer: God made us from dust in the beginning.

The spirits of both the righteous and the wicked return to God. Their bodies return to dust.

2. What happens when a person dies?

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Answer: The body turns to dust again, and the spirit goes back to God, who gave it. The spirit of every person who dies--whether righteous or wicked--returns to God at death.

There is nothing mysterious about the spirit that returns to God at death. It is the breath of life.

would you look at that you have it wrong from point 1 and the rest can only be wrong .

1. we are a spirits that have bodies
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

2.spiritual death is separation from God

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Gen 3:9 But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?”

 

[genuineoriginal]

would you look at that you have it wrong from point 1 and the rest can only be wrong .

1. we are a spirits that have bodies
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

The Bible does not say God made man as a spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:36-49 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.​

2.spiritual death is separation from God

You have several things wrong with that statement.
"spiritual death" is not a Biblical concept.
"death is separation from God" is not a Biblical concept.

 

[way 2 go]

The Bible does not say God made man as a spirit.

no, God says he created us in his image

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.

Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”


Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when He had been baptized, went up immediately out of the water. And lo, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting upon Him.
Mat 3:17 And lo, a voice from Heaven, saying, This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

You have several things wrong with that statement.
"spiritual death" is not a Biblical concept.
"death is separation from God" is not a Biblical concept.

yes it is

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Gen 3:9 But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?”

Rom 7:9 I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.

Rom 7:11 For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

 

[genuineoriginal]

"spiritual death" is not a Biblical concept.
"death is separation from God" is not a Biblical concept.

yes it is

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden,
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Gen 3:9 But the LORD God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?”

You are mistaken.
Adam did not "spiritually die" on the day he ate from the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

 

[JudgeRightly]

You are mistaken.
Adam did not "spiritually die" on the day he ate from the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Physical death is separation of body and soul/spirit. Spiritual death is separation of man from God.

Was Adam separated from God the day he ate of the Tree? Yes. Therefore, he died, spiritually.