God's Truth
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Paul is talking about having a body for our spirit.
If our spirits do not live on in consciousness, then what would it matter if we are clothed?
Where Does It Say In The Bible That You Go Directly To Heaven When You Die?
- Thread starter MarcATL
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Paul is talking about having a body for our spirit.
If our spirits do not live on in consciousness, then what would it matter if we are clothed?
genuineoriginal
New member
We can only live when we have a body (are clothed).
If we don't have a body (are naked) we are dead and don't exist.
God's Truth
New member
Again, Paul would NOT ever suggest a lie.
Again, the disciples thought that Jesus was a spirit/ghost and the Pharisee believed in spirits/ghosts. That means spirits/ghosts looks like people.
I am not speaking of demons. Are you going to speak about demons when I speak of Paul and his saying in or out of the body? What does that have to do with demons? Are you thinking the disciples, when looking at Jesus thought he was a demon?
God's Truth
New member
Of course we can live without the body. Paul knew of a man who might have been alive out of his body. Spirit.ghosts are out of their body.
Jesus went to prison and preached to spirits, i.e. people without their bodies.
Derf
Well-known member
I think it was less correction and more affirmation.
genuineoriginal
New member
According to Peter, Paul's writings are easy to misunderstand by the people that do not have the right educational background to understand him.
I am not accusing Paul of writing, I am stating the fact that you can't understand Paul's writings because you lack the education needed to understand him.
Pharisees believed in unclean spirits (demons) and the disciples did not grow up in a culture that was not heavily influenced by pagan ideas from Hellenization.
You keep switching back and forth between referencing verses that speak about unclean spirits (demons), verses that speak about phantasms, and verses that speak about the human life essence (spirit).
I can only assume that you are doing this because you can't tell the difference between them.
Paul said he couldn't tell if it was an in-body experience or an out-of-body experience, but you are saying you know more than Paul did?
You keep switching back and forth between referencing verses that speak about unclean spirits (demons), verses that speak about phantasms, and verses that speak about the human life essence (spirit).
I can only assume that you are doing this because you can't tell the difference between them.
genuineoriginal
New member
Paul said he couldn't tell if it was an in-body experience or an out-of-body experience, but you are saying you know more than Paul did?
That is an idea that came from pagans through Hellenization.
Those were fallen angels, demons, unclean spirits, not people.
Jude 6 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. |
genuineoriginal
New member
The comma was put in the wrong place, it goes after the word "today".
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Truly I say to thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise.
Derf
Well-known member
I'm not sure that makes sense. "today" is unnecessary in your sentence structure, and even Jesus spoke it unnecessarily, you have as little claim to know where the comma goes as the next guy, so at the most, it's still ambiguous.
I'm not saying you're wrong, though it may sound like it. I'm just saying the other translation is more likely correct.
God's Truth
New member
God's Truth
New member
Again, and again, and again: I am not speaking about demons.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Again, according to your idea a person is never without a body but despite that Paul spoke about a state where people are without a body.
Tell me exactly when a person who has died physically receives a new body and please give the Scriptures which you think supports your answer.
Thanks!
God's Truth
New member
That is a bad attempt of you at trying to deceive.
God's Truth
New member
You seem like a decrepit person. Sorry, just a thought I had about you by your attitude on this site. Do you have many illnesses? Don't answer, just an observation.
God's Truth
New member
Paul would NOT have suggested evil as good.
Go think about it someone.
Never mind don’t think about it more. Obey first and humble yourself.
Give a scripture that I referenced and or quoted that has to do with demons. Do it now or repent.
God's Truth
New member
Jesus didn't preach the gospel to demons so that they could obey.
genuineoriginal
New member
There is a detailed analysis in this article of whether the comma can go in front of "today" in the verse. I am posting only the final paragraph because it is so long:
The Significance of a Comma: An Analysis of Luke 23:43
On the other hand, if we read “today” with the preceding verb, Jesus’ statement may indeed sound somewhat pleonastic in modern, Western languages, but this pleonasm becomes fully acceptable if understood as an idiomatic way to emphasize the significance of the announcement: “Truly, I tell you today . . .” Finally, there is also enough evidence that this way of understanding the passage is neither new nor illegitimate, as this shows exactly how important segments of the church understood it, even in a time when the belief on the immortality of the soul had already become predominant in Christianity. What the thief asked Jesus was to be remembered in His kingdom (Luke 23:42), and this is exactly what Jesus promised him, thus the dying man received peace and comfort. This is the great promise of the gospel—to be with Jesus forever (John 14:1–3; 1 Thess. 4:16, 17; Rev. 21:1–4).
On the other hand, if we read “today” with the preceding verb, Jesus’ statement may indeed sound somewhat pleonastic in modern, Western languages, but this pleonasm becomes fully acceptable if understood as an idiomatic way to emphasize the significance of the announcement: “Truly, I tell you today . . .” Finally, there is also enough evidence that this way of understanding the passage is neither new nor illegitimate, as this shows exactly how important segments of the church understood it, even in a time when the belief on the immortality of the soul had already become predominant in Christianity. What the thief asked Jesus was to be remembered in His kingdom (Luke 23:42), and this is exactly what Jesus promised him, thus the dying man received peace and comfort. This is the great promise of the gospel—to be with Jesus forever (John 14:1–3; 1 Thess. 4:16, 17; Rev. 21:1–4).
genuineoriginal
New member
Nothing in the verse states that Jesus preached the gospel.
1 Peter 3:19-20 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. |
Here are some options for who the spirits in prison are and what was preached to them:
(1 Pet. 3:19-20) Where did Jesus go during the three days in the grave?
WHOM did he preach to?
OPTION #1: Jesus preached to the humans in Noah’s day. Under this view, when Peter refers to “spirits” now in prison, Peter could have been referring to those disobedient people from Noah’s day, who are in hell. If Jesus was preaching through Noah (2 Pet. 2:5), then he could have been preaching repentance to these people. However, the Greek word for “spirits” (pneuma) almost always refers to “malevolent supernatural beings.” Typically, the word used for dead humans is the Greek word psychē, which Peter does not use here.
OPTION #2: Jesus preached to the evil spirits of Noah’s day. Peter is referring to the evil spirits, who produced the nephilim (Gen. 6:4; c.f. 2 Pet. 2:4). However, other interpreters ask why Jesus would only preach to these spirits from Noah’s generation and not others.
WHAT did he preach?
OPTION #1: Jesus preached a message of forgiveness. If Jesus was preaching through Noah to the people of his day, then this could refer to a message of forgiveness and repentance.
OPTION #2: Jesus preached a message of judgment or victory over Satan. If Jesus was preaching after his resurrection to demons, then this would be a message of victory over Satan—not forgiveness—because the Bible doesn’t teach demon-salvation (Heb. 2:16). Advocates of this view note that Jesus merely “went and made proclamation” (v.19). Peter uses the Greek word kēryssō here for “proclamation,” rather than the typical term euangelizō—used for gospel preaching (as in 4:6). Since this doesn’t explicitly say what type of proclamation was made, it’s equally possible that this was a proclamation of judgment over the demonic realm (Col. 2:15).
Conclusion
Because this is such an unclear passage, we shouldn’t build any serious doctrines on it. It is a hermeneutical rule that we should interpret the unclear in light of the clear.
WHOM did he preach to?
OPTION #1: Jesus preached to the humans in Noah’s day. Under this view, when Peter refers to “spirits” now in prison, Peter could have been referring to those disobedient people from Noah’s day, who are in hell. If Jesus was preaching through Noah (2 Pet. 2:5), then he could have been preaching repentance to these people. However, the Greek word for “spirits” (pneuma) almost always refers to “malevolent supernatural beings.” Typically, the word used for dead humans is the Greek word psychē, which Peter does not use here.
OPTION #2: Jesus preached to the evil spirits of Noah’s day. Peter is referring to the evil spirits, who produced the nephilim (Gen. 6:4; c.f. 2 Pet. 2:4). However, other interpreters ask why Jesus would only preach to these spirits from Noah’s generation and not others.
WHAT did he preach?
OPTION #1: Jesus preached a message of forgiveness. If Jesus was preaching through Noah to the people of his day, then this could refer to a message of forgiveness and repentance.
OPTION #2: Jesus preached a message of judgment or victory over Satan. If Jesus was preaching after his resurrection to demons, then this would be a message of victory over Satan—not forgiveness—because the Bible doesn’t teach demon-salvation (Heb. 2:16). Advocates of this view note that Jesus merely “went and made proclamation” (v.19). Peter uses the Greek word kēryssō here for “proclamation,” rather than the typical term euangelizō—used for gospel preaching (as in 4:6). Since this doesn’t explicitly say what type of proclamation was made, it’s equally possible that this was a proclamation of judgment over the demonic realm (Col. 2:15).
Conclusion
Because this is such an unclear passage, we shouldn’t build any serious doctrines on it. It is a hermeneutical rule that we should interpret the unclear in light of the clear.
genuineoriginal
New member
No, that is not how it works, you have it switched around.
This is how it works: Without a body, there is no person.
A person who has died receives a new body in a well known Biblical event called the Resurrection.
I am sure you have heard of it and can find your own scriptures.