What is the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ?

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The book of Hebrews is a little different because Paul was writing to Hebrew Christians and not Gentile Christians.
Or... it's a lot different because Paul did not write it.
Paul is the only apostle that had the knowledge of the covenants, the Gospel and justification by faith and was a scholar of the law.
So are you retracting your statement that the twelve "learned the gospel on the day of Pentecost"?
Most of the other apostles were unlearned and had little knowledge of anything.
They WERE unlearned, but Christ taught them for YEARS.
Much of what Paul said can be found in his other epistles and in the Old Testament, which he frequently quoted.
None of this is proof that Paul wrote it. The truth is that we do NOT know who wrote it.
Regardless of who wrote it, it contains doctrine related to God's relationship with Israel. It is different from the 13 epistles that we know that Paul wrote.
 
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Robert Pate

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Or... it's a lot different because Paul did not write it.

So are you retracting your statement that the twelve "learned the gospel on the day of Pentecost"?

They WERE unlearned, but Christ taught them for YEARS.

None of this is proof that Paul wrote it. The truth is that we do NOT who wrote it.
Regardless of who wrote it, it contains doctrine related to God's relationship with Israel. It is different from the 13 epistles that we know that Paul wrote.
Jesus did not teach the apostles much about the Gospel and justification by faith. He mostly taught the law. Paul was the only one that really understood the Gospel and justification by faith. The fact that he mentions Timothy in Hebrews, 13:23 is enough for me. Paul is the only one that had enough smarts to write Hebrews. He was a very intelligent man. The rest of the apostles were fishermen or tax collectors, not scholars like Paul.
 

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Jesus did not teach the apostles much about the Gospel and justification by faith.
Why would the Lord Jesus Christ chose twelve apostles and tell them to preach the gospel of the kingdom without telling them the most important things regarding justification by faith?
He mostly taught the law.
Why would the Lord Jesus Christ "teach mostly the law" and not teach something as important as justification by faith?
Paul was the only one that really understood the Gospel and justification by faith.
Again, why all the years preaching the gospel of the kingdom and leaving out "the Gospel and justification by faith"?
The fact that he mentions Timothy in Hebrews, 13:23 is enough for me.
Good for you.
Paul is the only one that had enough smarts to write Hebrews.
Nonsense.
He was a very intelligent man.
So?
The rest of the apostles were fishermen or tax collectors, not scholars like Paul.
You continue to belittle those that Christ chose and personally taught for years.

Why were the twelve not given "the gospel"?
 

JudgeRightly

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The book of Hebrews is a little different because Paul was writing to Hebrew Christians and not Gentile Christians.

Question begging. Fallacy. Stop it.

Paul is the only apostle that had the knowledge of the covenants, the Gospel and justification by faith and was a scholar of the law.

Because you say so?

Most of the other apostles were unlearned and had little knowledge of anything.

Because you say so?

Much of what Paul said can be found in his other epistles and in the Old Testament, which he frequently quoted.

More question begging. Stop it.
 

JudgeRightly

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The fact that he mentions Timothy in Hebrews, 13:23 is

More question begging. Stop it.

Paul is the only one that had enough smarts to write Hebrews.

Because you say so?

He was a very intelligent man. The rest of the apostles were fishermen or tax collectors, not scholars like Paul.

Luke was a learned man.

Why couldn't it have been him? Hmmm?

You seem to think that only Paul could have written it because the other twelve were not capable of writing it, but that's a false dichotomy, because there are more people who existed at the time it was written than just Paul and the Twelve.
 

Robert Pate

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More question begging. Stop it.



Because you say so?



Luke was a learned man.

Why couldn't it have been him? Hmmm?

You seem to think that only Paul could have written it because the other twelve were not capable of writing it, but that's a false dichotomy, because there are more people who existed at the time it was written than just Paul and the Twelve.
Luke was a physician, not a scholar like Paul. Paul knew the Old Testament because he had been a Pharisee. Who ever wrote Hebrews had a complete knowledge of the Old Testament. There is no mention of Timothy in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John because the they didn't know who he was. The name "Timothy" is only found in Paul's writings, which verifies that Paul wrote Hebrews. In Hebrews 13:23, Paul refers to Timothy as "our brother" which means it is the same Timothy that Paul mentioned the other 18 times in the book of Acts and his epistles.
 

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Luke was a physician, not a scholar like Paul. Paul knew the Old Testament because he had been a Pharisee. Who ever wrote Hebrews had a complete knowledge of the Old Testament. There is no mention of Timothy in Matthew, Mark, Luke or John because the they didn't know who he was. The name "Timothy" is only found in Paul's writings, which verifies that Paul wrote Hebrews.
  • That still does NOT guarantee that it's the SAME Timothy
  • It's possible that others would call Timothy brother
  • You are not using any logical argument
In Hebrews 13:23, Paul refers to Timothy as "our brother" which means it is the same Timothy that Paul mentioned the other 18 times in the book of Acts and his epistles.
No, it does NOT mean that. Timothy had more "brothers" than just Paul.
 

Robert Pate

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  • That still does NOT guarantee that it's the SAME Timothy
  • It's possible that others would call Timothy brother
  • You are not using any logical argument

No, it does NOT mean that. Timothy had more "brothers" than just Paul.
I can see where you would have problems with things of faith.
 

Robert Pate

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Sometimes you just have to concede that we do not know and just leave it at that.
Having faith in an assumption it not faith at all.
There is nothing, absolutely nothing in the book of Hebrews that is not consistent with Paul's epistles. Much of what Paul said in his epistles are repeated in Hebrews.
 

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There is nothing, absolutely nothing in the book of Hebrews that is not consistent with Paul's epistles.
Your bias has blinded you. You are convinced that Paul wrote it, so in your mind it must be "consistent". In reality, it is quite different.
Much of what Paul said in his epistles are repeated in Hebrews.
Feel free to actually demonstrate.

The book to the HEBREWS is actually far more consistent with the other Hebrews epistles. The Hebrews are the ones that will have a new covenant with God in their kingdom. The book to the HEBREWS is Israeli through and through (as is the book of Revelation).
 

Robert Pate

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Your bias has blinded you. You are convinced that Paul wrote it, so in your mind it must be "consistent". In reality, it is quite different.

Feel free to actually demonstrate.

The book to the HEBREWS is actually far more consistent with the other Hebrews epistles. The Hebrews are the ones that will have a new covenant with God in their kingdom. The book to the HEBREWS is Israeli through and through (as is the book of Revelation).
The greatest similarity between Paul's epistles and the book of Hebrews is the word "Faith" Paul used the word "Faith" hundreds of times in his epistles and then when he wrote Hebrews he wrote a whole chapter on it. Hebrews the 11th Chapter. No other apostle even comes close to Paul's emphasis on faith.
 

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The greatest similarity between Paul's epistles and the book of Hebrews is the word "Faith" Paul used the word "Faith" hundreds of times in his epistles and then when he wrote Hebrews he wrote a whole chapter on it. Hebrews the 11th Chapter. No other apostle even comes close to Paul's emphasis on faith.
... or GRACE... Paul's 13 epistles speak about GRACE... Jesus is never quoted as having used the word during His ministry to Israel.

The book to the Hebrews is Israeli through and through. That you think that Paul wrote it is irrelevant to its context being all about Israel; their past and their future. It's not a book directed to the body of Christ where there is neither Jew nor Greek.

It also confirms that the new covenant is between the same two parties as the old covenant: God and Israel.
 

Robert Pate

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... or GRACE... Paul's 13 epistles speak about GRACE... Jesus is never quoted as having used the word during His ministry to Israel.

The book to the Hebrews is Israeli through and through. That you think that Paul wrote it is irrelevant to its context being all about Israel; their past and their future. It's not a book directed to the body of Christ where there is neither Jew nor Greek.

It also confirms that the new covenant is between the same two parties as the old covenant: God and Israel.
The Old Covenant is history. "But now he has obtained a more excellent ministry (salvation by grace through faith) by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises (The Gospel of Jesus Christ) Hebrews 8:6.

What makes you think that God has a Covenant with Christ rejecting Jews?
 

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The Old Covenant is history. "But now he has obtained a more excellent ministry (salvation by grace through faith) by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises (The Gospel of Jesus Christ) Hebrews 8:6.
You are FALSELY equating the "more excellent ministry" with "salvation by grace through faith". Again this is your reading your bias into the scripture.
What makes you think that God has a Covenant with Christ rejecting Jews?
Stop making FALSE ACCUSATIONS. God will REMOVE the Christ rejecting Jews and leave only the REMNANT... which are STILL ISRAEL.
 

Robert Pate

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You are FALSELY equating the "more excellent ministry" with "salvation by grace through faith". Again this is your reading your bias into the scripture.

Stop making FALSE ACCUSATIONS. God will REMOVE the Christ rejecting Jews and leave only the REMNANT... which are STILL ISRAEL.

What is the "More excellent ministry"? How is Jesus the mediator of the better covenant that was established on better promises? What are the better promises?
 
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