What is the basis for the belief that abortion is murder?

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john2001

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Re: Re: Re: Re: What is the basis for the belief that abortion is murder?

Re: Re: Re: Re: What is the basis for the belief that abortion is murder?

Originally posted by Nineveh

It's still a human embryo and human fetus.



You mean a human isn't cloned from a sheep? Amazing how, even cloned, we know what we will get.
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We know that we will get a human when we combine a human sperm and a human egg. Does that make a sperm and an egg human?
Are you now going to claim that wasting sperm or eggs is murder?

I will agree that a fertilized egg is a *potential* human, but it is not obvious a priori
that this constitutes a "human being", particularly since they seem naturally to be disposable in the way human reproduction operates, discarding at least a third of fertilized eggs spontaneously. This is
a vastly larger number of "abortions" than those that women have had voluntarily.


(irrationality of the belief in spirits or soul)
Actually no, I wasn't even goin' that direction, but I'll read your argument against the position I haven't taken anyway.... So don't get mad when my arguments will match my real statements and not the one you hand picked for me, k?
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Well, then if there are no "souls" involved, then where is the beef? Basically, a human embryo is indistinguishable in its structure from the embryos of many other species.

Genetically, every cell in your body is capable of producing a "twin Nineva" . With cloning it seems that there is little difference between a body cell and a fertilized egg.
 
On Fire

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Re: Re: Re: What is the basis for the belief that abortion is murder?

Re: Re: Re: What is the basis for the belief that abortion is murder?

Originally posted by john2001

The term "human" is more than genetics, it is something else. So, I don't see we can consider an embryo or a fetus to be "human" out of necesssity.

With the advent of human cloning, which has either been done, or will nearly be done, every cell of the human body is potentially another "person".

I am sure that you have some notion of "souls" or "spirits" that you invoke at this stage.

Yet, there are some interesting philosophical connundrums associated with this notion. For example, an embryo splits and becomes identical twins. Or in the reverse case, two fraternal twins fuse to yield a chimera.

In the first case, splitting an embryo seems to make a soul. In the second case, fusing two embryos eliminates a soul.

And, what about the millions of natural failures of fertilized eggs to attach, natural abortions, and still borns. What of the "souls" in this case? Apparently "god" offs more of the unborn than a million abortionists could do.

In short, the idea is bankrupt.

Ultimately it is we who decide when an embryo or fetus is human.
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It only took a couple of posts for you to go from "really wanting to know" to "I'm right and you're wrong, so :p ".

You, wiper of other men's bottom, are a :troll: .
 
Nineveh

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What is the basis for the belief that abortion is murder?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: What is the basis for the belief that abortion is murder?

Originally posted by john2001

We know that we will get a human when we combine a human sperm and a human egg. Does that make a sperm and an egg human?
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Makes it a human zygote doesn't it? As opposed to a chicken or a fern?

discarding at least a third of fertilized eggs spontaneously. This is
a vastly larger number of "abortions" than those that women have had voluntarily.
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"Voluntarily"? Obviously you hvae never seen a mother mourn a spontaneous abortion. The only thing you do by bringing up natural mishaps in conception and gestation is prove just how precious life really is.

Talking to you about souls is about as edifying as talking to a chunk of wood about color. Murder shouldn't matter to you at all, really. Everything is just chemicals.
 
On Fire

On Fire

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Originally posted by billwald

No one cares about the 50% of conceptions that God aborts?
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About as much as we care about the thousands (millions?) of people who die every year from natural causes and diseases.
 
B

billwald

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The theory is that God is running the show. The Capt is responsible for his ship even while he is asleep in his bunk.
 
firechyld

firechyld

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Are you now going to claim that wasting sperm or eggs is murder?
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There would be some basis to a Christian believing that... the Israelites considered the spilling of seed to be a major transgression.

Of course, they also considered an unborn child to be "property", rather than a human life... and not overly valuable property at that.
 
Nineveh

Nineveh

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Originally posted by firechyld

There would be some basis to a Christian believing that... the Israelites considered the spilling of seed to be a major transgression.
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Passage please.

Of course, they also considered an unborn child to be "property", rather than a human life... and not overly valuable property at that.
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"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. "

Sounds pretty valuable to me....
 
firechyld

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Passage please.
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Do I really have to go digging for them? There's repeated mention of spilled seed, and it was considered a source of tum'eh. I'm sure you've encountered the passages that refer to spilling seed yourself.

The story of Onan is one example.

"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. "
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Not really. The "life for life, eye for eye" refers to the woman. The "husband demands and court allows" is the same as any damage to a possession.
 
Lighthouse

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firechyld-
The reason you have to go digging for them is because there are no bverses that say what you said. The story of Onan is about him not having a child with the wife of his late brother, as he should have, so there would be an heir to his brother's possesions...because his brother died childless. And Onan spilled his seed [he pulled out] so that he could take his brother's possesions. He was greedy. That was his transgression. The greed is what was wrong. the spilling of seed was merely an action of that greed. So the spilling in and of itself was not a transgression.
 
firechyld

firechyld

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The reason you have to go digging for them is because there are no bverses that say what you said. The story of Onan is about him not having a child with the wife of his late brother, as he should have, so there would be an heir to his brother's possesions...because his brother died childless. And Onan spilled his seed [he pulled out] so that he could take his brother's possesions. He was greedy. That was his transgression. The greed is what was wrong. the spilling of seed was merely an action of that greed. So the spilling in and of itself was not a transgression.
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Spilling of seed is a source of tum'eh. It's considered an offence.

Tell you what, I'll go digging for the verses and post them tomorrow. I'm trying to finish a paper, so I can't do it now.

I didn't realise that Ninevah honestly didn't know which verses I was referring to... I apologise.
 
Nineveh

Nineveh

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Originally posted by firechyld

Do I really have to go digging for them?
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Yes.

Not really. The "life for life, eye for eye" refers to the woman. The "husband demands and court allows" is the same as any damage to a possession.
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"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. "

I guess you could twist it to mean that.
 
firechyld

firechyld

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"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. "

I guess you could twist it to mean that.
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Twist? How am I twisting?
 
Nineveh

Nineveh

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"...hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely ..."

Why bother including that part if it's just about the woman?

Got that verse yet?
 
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