What is the basis for the belief that abortion is murder?

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DonW

New member
I agree, "serious injury" and "eye for eye" etc definitely means the woman, not the baby.
 

erethnereh

New member
I know the verse that firechyld wanted to find. It exist in the Torah. What it amounts to is that if two men get into a fight and the pregnant women's baby is inadvertently killed(I'm reading manslaughter here) then the pregnant women's husband may demand anything from the.

Since Christians live by the New Testament, the old law really does not hold too much respute.
 
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cattyfan

Guest
john2001 is starting this discussion from the perspective he doesn't believe in God in the first place:

Hmm. Of course, I believe that not only did man create the "law of god" man also created god as well.

he goes on to make derisive comments about souls:

I am sure that you have some notion of "souls" or "spirits" that you invoke at this stage.

given, then, that he has no affinity for anything sacred, it does no good to try to hold a theological discussion with this intellectual lightweight. He is unable to comprehend anything he cannot see or hold...as that is the basis for faith, it is no wonder he has none.

But to pretend that what is carried within the mother is anything but human is ridiculous. Look at the fetal ultrasounds...what grows within the womb has a heartbeat, brainwaves, and the tiny form of a person within weeks...not months. When then exactly do you think it's a person?

Now take a look at my nephew. Born when my sister was just shy of 6 months pregnant, he was 2 pounds. He is quite obviously a person. (today he's a teenager.) Would he not have been a person for three months then had he stayed in her womb?

I am sorry you are so empty of faith, and in so, are empty of real sustaining life. Perhaps it is you, soul-less and empty, who is not human.
 
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cattyfan

Guest
"Murder" is a legal term. By definition, legal abortion is not and cannot be murder.

we frequently hear a phrase tossed about when liberals discuss things like gay marriage: "Just because it's the law doesn't make it right...slavery used to be legal, too." Well...let's apply that phrase to this discussion: just because getting an abortion is currently legal doesn't make it any less wrong or any less a murder.
 

avatar382

New member
You'll find the answer to the question in the title of the thread when you find the answer to the following question:

Why is human life more precious than other life here on earth? (animals, plants, etc?)
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
erethnereh,
No, the one firechyld can't seem to place is the one supporting this statement: "Spilling of seed is a source of tum'eh. It's considered an offence."
 

Ecumenicist

New member
Originally posted by Nineveh

Passage please.



"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. "

Sounds pretty valuable to me....

Life for life if the mother dies. If the child is not born alive,
its just a monetary compensation. The life of the mother
is more valuable in the eyes of God than the life of the
unborn child. The "injury" in question applies to the woman,
not the child.

Exodus 21
22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [1 (note: also translated as miscarries)] but
there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows.

Gen 38:
8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also.

The issue here is not the spilling of the seed, its denying the
brother's wife, and the dead brother, continuation of the family. This was important to the woman because without male children
to support them, women were doomed to destitution, as they
were considered property, and could not own land or make a
living.

Hence, prostitution was the only sanctioned income producing
profession a woman could take outside of marriage.

djm
 

Aimiel

New member
If you were to kill a sperm cell or an egg, it would be destruction of tissue. A zygote is an individual, even though it is a one-celled person. To deprive that person of their life, with or without anyone's 'consent' or expressed desire, is murder of a human life.
 

Ecumenicist

New member
Originally posted by Aimiel

If you were to kill a sperm cell or an egg, it would be destruction of tissue. A zygote is an individual, even though it is a one-celled person. To deprive that person of their life, with or without anyone's 'consent' or expressed desire, is murder of a human life.

I'm fine with that being your personal conviction, but that's not
what scripture says. The life of an unborn child is not given
equal value of that of the mother. If the mother is killed
or injured during a fight, its life for life, limb for limb. If the mother
miscarries, money or property is exchanged as payment.

Here's another example, from scripture, at least a metaphorical
parallel:

Dtr 22:6
If you come across a bird's nest beside the road, either in a tree or on the ground, and the mother is sitting on the young or on the eggs, do not take the mother with the young.

The life of the mother is sacred, moreso than the life of the
eggs or young.

djm
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Dave,

v7
"You may take the young, but be sure to let the mother go, so that it may go well with you and you may have a long life. "

Dave, do you really believe that principal is applied to unborn human children?
 

Ecumenicist

New member
As I said, it can be considered a metaphorical example which
supports the idea.

Where else is it said that long life is assured through obedience?
The commandment to honor father and mother. The idea of
honoring the mother bird holds a similar promise, thanx
for bringing it up.

Dave
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Originally posted by Dave Miller

Exodus 21
[1 (note: also translated as miscarries)]

What version?
NIV: gives birth prematurely *
NASB: she gives birth prematurely
KJV: so that her fruit depart from her
NKJV: so that she gives birth prematurely

It seems only NIV denotes an alternative interpretation of the words.

Gen 38:
8 Then Judah said to Onan, "Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother." 9 But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. 10 What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death also.

The issue here is not the spilling of the seed, its denying the
brother's wife, and the dead brother, continuation of the family. This was important to the woman because without male children
to support them, women were doomed to destitution, as they
were considered property, and could not own land or make a
living.

Ya know, even though you are absolutley correct about this, I was hoping firechyld would try to gain some wisdom in the matter :)

...but after such a glimmer of brilliance:
Hence, prostitution was the only sanctioned income producing
profession a woman could take outside of marriage.

I still hold out hope for ya, dave...
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Originally posted by Dave Miller

As I said, it can be considered a metaphorical example which
supports the idea.

"A metaphorical example" we can apply to human children?
 

Ecumenicist

New member
Since we're lacking a direct "Thou Shalt Not have abortions"
commandment, we need to explore everything we can to
understand how ancient Hebrew Theology would have been
applied.

Knowing what I do about scripture, I would summize that
abortion might have been accepted in cases where the
mother's life was at stake, i.e. choosing between the life of
the mother and the life of the child.

djm
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Originally posted by Dave Miller

Since we're lacking a direct "Thou Shalt Not have abortions"
commandment, we need to explore everything we can to
understand how ancient Hebrew Theology would have been
applied.

mmhm. "Thou shalt not murder, except the unborn."
 

Aimiel

New member
Originally posted by Dave Miller

I'm fine with that being your personal conviction, but that's not
what scripture says.
I'm fine with your opinion, though, perhaps I take parts of my Bible more seriously than you do:

"Whoever sheds man's blood, By man his blood shall be shed, For in the image of God He made man."

That infant is not tissue, whether you believe it is or not, it is a human being, and the life of the murderer of unborn infants should be forfeit for the aborted baby's death.
 
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