What is the basis for the belief that abortion is murder?

Status
Not open for further replies.

firechyld

New member
"Murder" is a legal term. By definition, legal abortion is not and cannot be murder.

*shrug*

Of course, that doesn't have anything to do with whether it's right or wrong. I just have a thing about people misusing words to garner public opinon.
 

Lighthouse

Star-Spangled Kid
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
The law of man does not dictate the law of God. And in the law of God any taking of innocent human life is murder. And since life begins at conception, abortion is murder.
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Re: What is the basis for the belief that abortion is murder?

Originally posted by john2001

I don't believe that abortion is murder. Why do you think that it is?

Taking an innocent human life is murder.

A human woman can only be pregnant with another human being.
 

billwald

New member
No biblical evidence that human life begins at conception, only life.

You do know that approx 75% of all conceptions are aborted? Half of them by God?
 

firechyld

New member
The law of man does not dictate the law of God. And in the law of God any taking of innocent human life is murder. And since life begins at conception, abortion is murder.

No, dude. "Murder" is an English word, and a legal concept. You're simply taking legal lexicon and using it colloquially.

Considering that there is no word in Ancient Hebrew that directly corelates to the legal definition of "murder", your statement is baseless.

You can say that abortion is "wrong" or "sinful" or "evil" or any of those other words that apply to theological constructs, but murder has a very specific definition based on legislation and legal definitions.
 

firechyld

New member
Whatever your opinion of the morality of the situation, abortion is not, by definition, murder.

Just like manslaughter is not murder, self-defense is not murder, and the killing of one soldier by another during war time combat is not murder.
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
"the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought"

The only thing standing between human life and murder is the ignorant idea men can decide what "person" means. Until humans give birth to something other than humans, person means person. I thought "person" isn't supposed to be judged on the basis of race, sex, creed, or age.
 

Imrahil

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Re: What is the basis for the belief that abortion is murder?

Originally posted by john2001

I don't believe that abortion is murder. Why do you think that it is?
What would you call ripping the arms and legs off of a child?
 

Ecumenicist

New member
What about the well being of the woman?

There's biblical precidence for the life and health
and wellbeing of a woman being more important than that
of an unborn child.

I'm not pro-abortion, but the well being of the woman who
carries the child is hardly ever mentioned in these debates.

djm
 

john2001

BANNED BY MOD
Banned by Mod
Originally posted by firechyld

"Murder" is a legal term. By definition, legal abortion is not and cannot be murder.

*shrug*

Of course, that doesn't have anything to do with whether it's right or wrong. I just have a thing about people misusing words to garner public opinon.

Not at all. I a book that has death as a penalty for so many things a commandment of "thou shall not kill" only makes sense if "kill" means "murder".
 

john2001

BANNED BY MOD
Banned by Mod
Originally posted by lighthouse

The law of man does not dictate the law of God. And in the law of God any taking of innocent human life is murder. And since life begins at conception, abortion is murder.

Hmm. Of course, I believe that not only did man create the "law of god" man also created god as well.

Interesting that there is no religious tradition of holding funerals for miscarried fetuses.
 

john2001

BANNED BY MOD
Banned by Mod
Re: Re: What is the basis for the belief that abortion is murder?

Re: Re: What is the basis for the belief that abortion is murder?

Originally posted by Nineveh

Taking an innocent human life is murder.

A human woman can only be pregnant with another human being.

The term "human" is more than genetics, it is something else. So, I don't see we can consider an embryo or a fetus to be "human" out of necesssity.

With the advent of human cloning, which has either been done, or will nearly be done, every cell of the human body is potentially another "person".

I am sure that you have some notion of "souls" or "spirits" that you invoke at this stage.

Yet, there are some interesting philosophical connundrums associated with this notion. For example, an embryo splits and becomes identical twins. Or in the reverse case, two fraternal twins fuse to yield a chimera.

In the first case, splitting an embryo seems to make a soul. In the second case, fusing two embryos eliminates a soul.

And, what about the millions of natural failures of fertilized eggs to attach, natural abortions, and still borns. What of the "souls" in this case? Apparently "god" offs more of the unborn than a million abortionists could do.

In short, the idea is bankrupt.

Ultimately it is we who decide when an embryo or fetus is human.
 

firechyld

New member
"the crime of unlawfully killing a person especially with malice aforethought"

Emphasis on "unlawfully".

As long as abortion is legal, it quite simply does not fit the definition of murder. Plain and simple.

*shrug*

It may still be "wrong", but it's not murder.

Lying is "wrong", but it is not perjury until it's done in a court of law whilst under oath. If you're going to use a legal definition, apply it correctly.

The only thing standing between human life and murder is the ignorant idea men can decide what "person" means. Until humans give birth to something other than humans, person means person. I thought "person" isn't supposed to be judged on the basis of race, sex, creed, or age.

"Personhood" is also a legal construct, at least is our societies.

Not at all. I a book that has death as a penalty for so many things a commandment of "thou shall not kill" only makes sense if "kill" means "murder".

No, it doesn't. The Hebrew word usually translated as "kill" does not literally translate as "unlawfully kill". Hebrew has a lot of words which translate into English as "kill"... this one is ratsach, which is more usually translated as "slay" or "slayer". The implication of the definition is intentional and premeditated, and it is occasionally used to mean "assassin".

In English, the word "murder" refers to a very specific crime bracket in the homicide category. There's a difference.
 

Nineveh

Merely Christian
Re: Re: Re: What is the basis for the belief that abortion is murder?

Re: Re: Re: What is the basis for the belief that abortion is murder?

Originally posted by john2001

The term "human" is more than genetics, it is something else. So, I don't see we can consider an embryo or a fetus to be "human" out of necesssity.

It's still a human embryo and human fetus.

With the advent of human cloning, which has either been done, or will nearly be done, every cell of the human body is potentially another "person".

You mean a human isn't cloned from a sheep? Amazing how, even cloned, we know what we will get.

I am sure that you have some notion of "souls" or "spirits" that you invoke at this stage.

Actually no, I wasn't even goin' that direction, but I'll read your argument against the position I haven't taken anyway.... So don't get mad when my arguments will match my real statements and not the one you hand picked for me, k?

Yet, there are some interesting philosophical connundrums associated with this notion. For example, an embryo splits and becomes identical twins. Or in the reverse case, two fraternal twins fuse to yield a chimera.

In the first case, splitting an embryo seems to make a soul. In the second case, fusing two embryos eliminates a soul.

So? They are still... guess what?

{ drumroll }

Humans!

And, what about the millions of natural failures of fertilized eggs to attach, natural abortions, and still borns. What of the "souls" in this case? Apparently "god" offs more of the unborn than a million abortionists could do.

So misconception means they aren't human? How?

In short, the idea is bankrupt.

It seems most of your ideas are bankrupt, you really should do something about it.

Ultimately it is we who decide when an embryo or fetus is human.

Um... nope. Until human women give birth to tomatoes, that's a human in the womb when she is "pregnant".
 

keypurr

Well-known member
I think that it is a fetus until it is born. However a fetus is a promis of a human and should be held in very high esteem. There may be circustances where abortion would be a altertive to a health problem of the mother. It would then be a choice between a human and a promise of a human. this is not an easy decision for anyone.

Adam became a living soul only when God put breath in his body. I am sure a number of verses can be found to differ from this. We are not smart enough to tell just when we became human, but I think that would be a good place to consider. I am not in favor of abortion for just any reason. Health of Mother is my main concern. Deeply personal decision should be made by partys involved.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top