What is Jesus saying here?

Hilltrot

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The Son should be honored just as the Father is, and anyone who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father.
That's common sense. It provides no evidence that Jesus = God, only that honor to Jesus = honor to God as well as the inverse.

Check out Luke 20:9-16.

How was the son the same as the owner and how was he different?

And this one:
See my original response to John 8:58.

And plenty more passages where Jesus either equates Himself to God, or says things that only Someone who IS God can say and it not be blasphemy.
He does not equate himself to God - in fact quite the opposite.

I do the works in my Father's name. I have no Honor. The Father honors me. The Father is greater than I. etc.

The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
Remember the Jews are the ones who are repeatedly wrong and confused in John. So, when they say something like this, it's a cue that what they are saying is entirely and completely wrong. Quoting the Jews here is like quoting the fools in Job.

And Jesus doesn't say "You got me. I am the God, Almighty. This must have been revealed to you by me . . ."

No, Jesus says he is calling himself the Son of God even though the Bible has called others gods.

A single verse is not enough to establish a matter, especially against the hundreds of verses the support the fact that Christ is, in fact, God the Son.

There isn't one verse to support Jesus being "God the Son".

EVEN MORE SO when the verse you claim says that Christ is not God is used BY TRINITARIANS as part of our doctrine.

Yes, I know. Have I told you about the parallels between Trinitarianism and Calvinism?

Because of course the Father is greater than the Son, but not in power, but in position.
So, you're claiming Jesus was talking about altitude . . . that makes no sense in the context.
 

JudgeRightly

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That's common sense. It provides no evidence that Jesus = God, only that honor to Jesus = honor to God as well as the inverse.

You missed it:

Honoring Jesus just as one honors the Father means giving the same honor to Jesus as you do to the Father.

That's putting Christ equal to God.

Check out Luke 20:9-16.

A parable describing how God sent His prophets, and the were killed, and so instead of sending messengers to them, He sent His Son, and they killed Him too (which hadn't happened yet, but would happen).

How does that prove that Christ is not God? If anything, it shows even more so that He IS God, because He is the Son of God, and has the same nature as God.

How was the son the same as the owner and how was he different?

Supra.

See my original response to John 8:58.

Try getting the bigger picture. Notice that I said "AND this one", not "OR this one."

If you only look at one verse at a time, you won't see it.

God says it takes three witnesses to establish a matter.

I gave you three passages that, without trying to deny what it clearly says, as you do, show that Christ is God, and there are plenty more available.

Those three together show He is God, despite your claiming otherwise while looking at them individually.

He does not equate himself to God - in fact quite the opposite.

False.

I do the works in my Father's name. I have no Honor. The Father honors me. The Father is greater than I. etc.

Quoting snippets of the passages isn't helping you, Hill.

Remember the Jews are the ones who are repeatedly wrong and confused in John.

So Jesus was committing blasphemy?

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

So, when they say something like this, it's a cue that what they are saying is entirely and completely wrong. Quoting the Jews here is like quoting the fools in Job.

I didn't just quote the Jews. I quoted Jesus in that passage as well.

I'm not just selecting the passage and quoting it for no reason, Hill. Read the verse in context.

And Jesus doesn't say "You got me. I am the God, Almighty. This must have been revealed to you by me . . ."

No, Jesus says he is calling himself the Son of God even though the Bible has called others gods.

And by doing so, He is making Himself out to be God.

Either Jesus is God, or He's a liar.

There isn't one verse to support Jesus being "God the Son".

Ignoring the verses I provide that do support Him being God won't make them go away, Hill.

Yes, I know. Have I told you about the parallels between Trinitarianism and Calvinism?

I'm not a Calvinist.

So, you're claiming Jesus was talking about altitude . . . that makes no sense in the context.

Childish.

Don't be dumb, Hill.
 

Hilltrot

Active member
Please QUOTE the scripture so that we can discuss it IN DETAIL.
John 2:22 NLT
[22] After he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered he had said this, and they believed both the Scriptures and what Jesus had said.

No, Jesus was NOT being "cryptic". That is you hunting for a response.
If Jesus wasn't being cryptic why did no one understand what he meant until well after God raised him from the dead?

I explained that... are you going to ignore it?
You answered that in a later post, you claim Jesus was talking about altitude?

No tangent... you claimed that Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit were all different in NATURE.
Really? I don't remember doing that.

Ever heard of misdirection?
Not misdirecting you. That has already been done by someone else.

You consider the Bible silly?

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit share a SINGLE NAME (i.e. authority).
I wouldn't use your terminology, but the Father who is God is in fact the sole and single authority as explained in John 17:3.

Please identify your affiliation: Seventh Day Adventist, Christian Science, some other, which one is it?
I already have. I am not affiliated with Seventh Day Adventist or Christian Science.
 

Right Divider

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John 2:22 NLT
[22] After he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered he had said this, and they believed both the Scriptures and what Jesus had said.
I'm not seeing any problem here. Jesus said that HE would raise HIMSELF and He did.
If Jesus wasn't being cryptic why did no one understand what he meant until well after God raised him from the dead?
Even when Jesus was completely PLAIN about what He said, many could not (or maybe WOULD not) understand Him.
You answered that in a later post, you claim Jesus was talking about altitude?
I feel terrible for your immense confusion. Jesus was with His Father BEFORE the world was created. Jesus is the CREATOR.
Joh 17:5 KJV And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Joh 1:1-3 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2) The same was in the beginning with God. (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Really? I don't remember doing that.
I was responding to YOUR post that Jesus and the Holy Spirit were not God. They are God.
Not misdirecting you. That has already been done by someone else.
🥴
You consider the Bible silly?
Of course not. It's what YOU say about the Bible that is silly.
I wouldn't use your terminology, but the Father who is God is in fact the sole and single authority as explained in John 17:3.
Again a bogus understanding of that verse, you have.
I already have. I am not affiliated with Seventh Day Adventist or Christian Science.
Which other one then?
 
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Hilltrot

Active member
That's putting Christ equal to God.
No it isn't. There is no indication of that.

A parable describing how God sent His prophets, and the were killed, and so instead of sending messengers to them, He sent His Son, and they killed Him too (which hadn't happened yet, but would happen).

How does that prove that Christ is not God? If anything, it shows even more so that He IS God, because He is the Son of God, and has the same nature as God.

The owner of the vineyard = the son of the owner of the vineyard. Sorry, this is nowhere to be found.

If the workers had honored the son, would that have honored the father of the vineyard?

When the workers killed the son, was that dishonoring the owner of the vineyard?

has the same nature as God
This idea appears in 325 at the request of a Roman Emperor. This idea is not in the Bible.

True

Quoting snippets of the passages isn't helping you, Hill.
Well, it seems like they are too difficult for you to respond to.

So Jesus was committing blasphemy?
I don't follow your logic here. Are you saying Jesus would be committing blasphemy if he didn't declare himself to be God?

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

John was written with a purpose and a clearly stated that he did not mention everything Jesus did. The Jews in John were designed to be the ones who were consistently wrong.

And by doing so, He is making Himself out to be God.

Either Jesus is God, or He's a liar.

No, Jesus saying that he is Son of God is not saying that he is God the Son. We already agreed on this.

Ignoring the verses I provide that do support Him being God won't make them go away, Hill.
I ignored none of your verses. I explained them head-on.

Childish.

Don't be dumb, Hill.
So, are you capable of explaining what you meant by position if not altitude?
 

Hilltrot

Active member
I'm not seeing any problem here. Jesus said that HE would raise HIMSELF and He did.
So, you're hinging everything on a particular interpretation of this passage even if it doesn't make sense with the rest of the Bible.

Even when Jesus was completely PLAIN about what He said, many could not (or maybe WOULD not) understand Him.
Well, that is true but that still doesn't make Jesus any less cryptic in this particular passage.

Also, think about standard language. If I say "I'm going to put a new shower into my bathroom," am I lying if I pay someone else to do it?

And John's interpretation of what Jesus said is that God - not Jesus - raised him from the dead. John

I feel terrible for your immense confusion. Jesus was with His Father BEFORE the world was created. Jesus is the CREATOR.
Ahh, the infamous reason to murder Servitus - "eternal Son of God" vs. "Son of the Eternal God".

Joh 17:5 KJV And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Joh 1:1-3 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (2) The same was in the beginning with God. (3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
For John 17:5, see 2 Timothy 1:9 for a more in depth explanation of what Jesus meant by this. In short, you're trying to prove pre-existence. which all the synoptic Gospels clearly disagree with.

John 1:1-3 God made everything with his word - see Genesis 1.

I was responding to YOUR post that Jesus and the Holy Spirit were not God. They are God.
I don't remember saying that.

Of course not. It's what YOU say about the Bible that is silly.
Can you explain how it is silly?

Again a bogus understand of that verse, you have.
What is your interpretation of John 17:3?

Which other one then?
I already answered you and you replied by calling me a member of an internet cult.
 

Derf

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He has already admitted that the Bible does not say "Jesus Christ is God the Son". But go ahead, point to a single verse or passage which clearly identifies Jesus Christ as God the Son.

I can point to a single verse that says he isn't - John 14:28
Another strawman--that it has to be a single verse, as if all concepts presented by God must be in Twitter format.

And your verse says the opposite of what you say it says. The fact that Jesus for some reason needed to explain that He wasn't the same as His Father tells us that He was explaining that He was subject to His Father in all things, while being much more than human.

We have verses that say Jesus was not an angel (Heb 1:5, for instance). And we have verses that say He was not just human. Do you agree with those two concepts?
 

Right Divider

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So, you're hinging everything on a particular interpretation of this passage even if it doesn't make sense with the rest of the Bible.
You are incorrect.
And John's interpretation of what Jesus said is that God - not Jesus - raised him from the dead. John
So again you call Jesus a liar.
For John 17:5, see 2 Timothy 1:9 for a more in depth explanation of what Jesus meant by this. In short, you're trying to prove pre-existence. which all the synoptic Gospels clearly disagree with.
Jesus is the one that claims His own pre-existence.

Don't try to use Paul's epistle to try to disprove the deity of Christ, Paul confirmed Christ's deity.
Php 2:9-11 KJV Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: (10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; (11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Paul is referring to this:
Isa 45:22-23 KJV Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. (23) I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

John 1:1-3 God made everything with his word - see Genesis 1.
Jesus is God and is the Creator of all things, just as John clearly says. The WORD WAS GOD (John 1:1).
 

Hilltrot

Active member
Another strawman--that it has to be a single verse, as if all concepts presented by God must be in Twitter format.
I did give the option of a passage, but a shotgun of a set of passages means that you're having to cut and paste multiple passage to force the Bible to say what you want. Quote a longer passage if you want. It doesn't have to be Twitter-size.

And your verse says the opposite of what you say it says. The fact that Jesus for some reason needed to explain that He wasn't the same as His Father tells us that He was explaining that He was subject to His Father in all things, while being much more than human.
Yes, he was more important than just any human. He was the Messiah, the Son of God, the first among the new creation, etc. But he was still human and not God.

We have verses that say Jesus was not an angel (Heb 1:5, for instance).
This passage is especially problematic for those who insist on the pre-existence of Jesus. (Now, I don't know you believe(d) in Jesus's pre-existence.). That passage says that Jesus was told "Today, I have begotten you." That would preclude an eternal Jesus unless one does mental gymnastics, somersaults, and contortions. That being said, I do agree that Jesus was not an angel.

And we have verses that say He was not just human.
What do you mean by this? Which passage do you refer to.
 

Derf

Well-known member
I did give the option of a passage, but a shotgun of a set of passages means that you're having to cut and paste multiple passage to force the Bible to say what you want. Quote a longer passage if you want. It doesn't have to be Twitter-size.
[Jhn 1:1-34 KJV] 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light. 9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. 19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. 22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? 23 He said, I [am] the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias. 24 And they which were sent were of the Pharisees. 25 And they asked him, and said unto him, Why baptizest thou then, if thou be not that Christ, nor Elias, neither that prophet? 26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; 27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose. 28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan, where John was baptizing. 29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

The underlined portions give different descriptions of Jesus Christ--do you agree?
Yes, he was more important than just any human. He was the Messiah, the Son of God, the first among the new creation, etc. But he was still human and not God
If human only, He's a strange human, who existed before He was born. That's not a human trait.
This passage is especially problematic for those who insist on the pre-existence of Jesus. (Now, I don't know you believe(d) in Jesus's pre-existence.). That passage says that Jesus was told "Today, I have begotten you." That would preclude an eternal Jesus unless one does mental gymnastics, somersaults, and contortions. That being said, I do agree that Jesus was not an angel.
Yet we are told that He existed before he was born (before John the baptist, and before Abraham). He told us this Himself in the OP passage, and we see it in the passage from John 1 above.
What do you mean by this? Which passage do you refer to.
Besides John 1, the virgin birth tells us this fact.
 

Hilltrot

Active member
You are incorrect.
I disagree.

So again you call Jesus a liar.
No, I did not. Your beliefs and interpretations are not mine.

Jesus is the one that claims His own pre-existence.
No he doesn't claim pre-existence. That doesn't make sense either within the verse or the surrounding passage.

First you have Jesus asking the Father to glorify him. This means Jesus < God.

It is Jewish tradition at the time to announce things that will take place in the future in the past tense in order to emphasize that it outcome is certain. Jesus was so certain, he dated it to the beginning.

Second, within context, verse 7, Jesus < God, again in 8, and again in 9. In verse 10, he re-emphasizes verse 6 that he is God's light to the world.

With verse 11, the Jewish tradition of announcing things which will happen in the past tense reoccurs. He says he is no longer is the world, but the disciples are in the world.

Moving on to verse 19 - Jesus says he makes himself holy. This doesn't make sense if Jesus is God.

In verse 22 - Jesus hasn't sent the Holy Spirit yet - that doesn't happen until Pentecost. Once again stating something that will happen in the future as if it has already happened int order to emphasize its inevitability.

You still haven't answered verse 17:3.

Don't try to use Paul's epistle to try to disprove the deity of Christ, Paul confirmed Christ's deity.
I'll read whatever books of the Bible I want. Paul did not confirm that Jesus was God.

Php 2:9-11 KJV Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: (10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; (11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
And none of this says Jesus is God.
Paul is referring to this:
No, Paul refers to that in Romans 14:11 and when he refers to that he specifically mentions God - not Jesus.

And in verse 6 fo Philippians 2, you passed up another Jesus < God verse.

Jesus is God and is the Creator of all things, just as John clearly says. The WORD WAS GOD (John 1:1).

John never states that. The assumption that Jesus = the Word is logos theory which comes out of the Greek philosophical and Platonic beliefs. It started with Justin Martyr. Anyone who read it at the time it was written would say God created with his word. God spoke the world into existence.
 
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Hilltrot

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The underlined portions give different descriptions of Jesus Christ--do you agree?
You do have to realize that the capitalization of "word" in that passage is an added commentary to the passage. The English translations before the KJV did not capitalize "word". Do the actual word replacements yourself.

In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with the Father, and Jesus was the Father.

Make sense? No? Well, make your word replacements until they make sense to you and get back to me.

As I mentioned before to Right-Divider, this makes the best sense when one thinks of the the word as being a part of God like Wisdom in Proverbs 8. God created through speaking in Genesis 1. The word is not Jesus. The word is God.

Jesus is mentioned in verse 14. And no, he is not the word. The word of God is revealed through the human Jesus.

In verses 15 and 30 John the Baptist is not saying that Jesus pre-existed the world. John the Baptist is saying that Jesus surpassed him - See Matthew, Mark, and Luke.

If human only, He's a strange human, who existed before He was born.
I don't see any Biblical evidence of that.

Yet we are told that He existed before he was born (before John the baptist, and before Abraham).
I don't see any evidence of either and I've already discussed these passages.

Besides John 1, the virgin birth tells us this fact.
His birth, virgin or not, tells us he's human.
 

Hilltrot

Active member
John 5:17-18. No, the Jews did not at any time want to kill Jesus because he claimed to be God. They wanted to kill him because he was breaking the Sabbath and calling himself the Son of God. the Bible gives other reason's as well, but none of them were "Jesus called himself God". In fact , the video admits this at the beginning and then twists something to make it mean what it does not.

They deceitfully skip verse 19 which is yet another Jesus < God verse. By doing this they evade telling the audience that Jesus obtains his powers described in the later verses from God.

Mathew 11:26 does not say that Jesus and the Father had the same knowledge. Luke 2:52. Mark 13:32

Peter does not call Jesus God in Matthew 16:16 but the video shamelessly acts as if he did.

I've already discussed John 8:58. And existing before Abraham is not eternal existence unless you consider some trees in Colorodo to be eternal. Once again, they are stating what they want the passage to mean - not what it actually does.

John 10:30-33 Another passage taken out of context.

Notice in verse 32, the works are from the father - not from him. Jesus < God.
In verse 33, the are stoning him because they believe he claims to be a god - not God. The context become clear in Jesus's response.

Mark 14:61-62 - no mention of Jesus being God. The Son of Man in Daniel 7 is clearly not God. God doesn't have to be given dominion - verse 14. The video scissors that out to make the passage mean what they want it to.

Psalm 110:11 sitting at the right hand. Christians may sit at the right hand of Jesus. Does that make them God? Horrible logic here. Sitting at the right hand actually implies Jesus < God.

A bunch of verses about power come up. Only God can forgive sins etc., etc. Let's take on only God forgives sins. Mark 2: 1-12. Jesus doesn't say he is God. He says the Son of Man has the authority to forgive sins. This ability like the others are given to him by God. Matthew 11:27. Once again, Jesus < God.

Ok, I'll go over the other comparisons. Judge of all the people. Ever read the book Judge? How many persons make up God? Bridegroom. Really!? Was the Bridegroom at the wedding Jesus attended also God?

Matthew 28:18 When authority is given to you, that does not make you equal to the one who gave it to you. It makes you an inferior. Once gain, this passage clearly states Jesus < God

John 14:13-14 Jesus is Lord and mediator between us and God. That is what is meant in this context. It does not say or mean Jesus is God.

John 3:18 - not said by Jesus but instead was commentary by John. Jesus is greater than all the prophets. That does not make in God.

John 1:1 - Jesus is not the Word. That idea is Greek and Platonic philosophy - logos Theory. As for the other passages, mentioning God and Jesus in the same sentence does not mean Jesus is God.

Revelation 1:17 does not say Jesus is eternal - especially in the Greek philosophical sense.

John 1:3 - once again, the Word is not Jesus.

Colossians 1:16 is describing the second creation of which Jesus is the firstborn.

1 Peter 4:19 - God is clearly the Creator here - not Jesus.

Notice in Matthew 19:4, Jesus did not say "I created them male and female."

A Matthew 28:20 - No Omnipresence here. Omnipresence is rejected elsewhere in the Gospel.

Exodus 20:1-5 is against the worship of idols. Same for Deuteronomy 5:6-9. Jesus is not to be worshipped as a God, but as a Lord, Savior, and Mediator.

Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God. Jesus is not God.

I'm not a Calvinist.

The similarity is in Tactics. Lazily shotgunning a number of verses which are completely out of content and not stating the beliefs required. Avoiding large portions of the Bible and restricting study to a tiny portion of the Bible. The inability to find an explanation for beliefs in a contiguous text and relying on eisegesis to force beliefs onto the Bible. The insistence that other's beliefs conform "on the surface".
 

JudgeRightly

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a shotgun of a set of passages means that you're having to cut and paste multiple passage to force the Bible to say what you want.

Are you asserting that a concept must be localized to a specific passage in order for it to be considered truth?

Why is it not acceptable to provide multiple passages that together provide a clearer picture of a concept that, when the verses are taken individually, make it harder to see?

Does not God hide things in His word, for men to find them out? Is it not doing so the glory of kings?

Is not searching the scriptures something to be done in order to find what is new and old?

Quote a longer passage if you want. It doesn't have to be Twitter-size.

I did just that, and you rejected it out of hand, not even considering the fact that I told you to not look at them as individual passages, but as part of a bigger picture.

Yes, he was more important than just any human.

But you say He was still a human, nonetheless.

He was the Messiah, the Son of God,

Which apparently means nothing more than just another chosen human, according to you, no more different than Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, or any of God's prophets throughout the Old Testament.

the first among the new creation,

Which means, what, exactly, according to your position?

etc. But he was still human and not God.

Which means that he wasn't special at all.

This passage is especially problematic for those who insist on the pre-existence of Jesus.

Because you say so?

Once again, the reason you see it as a problem is that you're not considering the context.

Hebrews 1 (yes, the entire chapter) is describing Jesus as God the Son.

That you only focus on one verse and say "it's a problem text for Trinitarians" doesn't make it one.

Just read the chapter, in its entirety. Comprehend what it's saying. Don't force your beliefs onto it.

God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.For to which of the angels did He ever say: “You are My Son, Today I have begotten You”? And again: “I will be to Him a Father, And He shall be to Me a Son” ?But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits And His ministers a flame of fire.”But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.They will perish, but You remain; And they will all grow old like a garment;Like a cloak You will fold them up, And they will be changed. But You are the same, And Your years will not fail.”But to which of the angels has He ever said: “Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool”?Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation? - Hebrews 1:1-14 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews1:1-14&version=NKJV

Add another passage to the list of evidence Christ is God.

(Now, I don't know you believe(d) in Jesus's pre-existence.).

Jesus existed before the creation, because He is the Creator.

That passage says that Jesus was told "Today, I have begotten you."

I feel C. S. Lewis addresses this rather well:


That would preclude an eternal Jesus unless one does mental gymnastics, somersaults, and contortions.

Because you say so?

Or are you asserting that the reasoning that has been given by other

That being said, I do agree that Jesus was not an angel.

And yet, Jesus was made so much better than the angels, which means he's more than human. He was given a name above all other names, and the angels worship him.

Which righteous creature has ever accepted worship?

Was Jesus righteous?

Should any mere human be worshipped?
 

JudgeRightly

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John 5:17-18. No, the Jews did not at any time want to kill Jesus because he claimed to be God. They wanted to kill him because he was breaking the Sabbath and calling himself the Son of God. the Bible gives other reason's as well, but none of them were "Jesus called himself God".

Was John, the author of the following verse, not recording anyone's words but his own, lying when he wrote it?

Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. - John 5:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John5:18&version=NKJV

Does it say anything about what the Jews were thinking? Or does it give an unbiased reason for why the Jews in the passage wanted to kill Him?

Was John simply wrong in his recording of the facts?

Or was John telling the truth, that the Jews wanted to kill Him because He, saying that God was His Father, was, in fact, making Himself equal with God?

In fact , the video admits this at the beginning

What, specifically, did they say?

and then twists something to make it mean what it does not.

Just because you don't like what was said about passages in scripture, doesn't mean that a person is twisting the scripture to say something else.

Listen to it again. Don't jump to conclusions. Comprehend what the nice lady is saying.

They deceitfully skip verse 19

Why do you assume it was deceitful?

which is yet another Jesus < God verse.

Because you say so?

By doing this they evade telling the audience that Jesus obtains his powers described in the later verses from God.

False.

There is no use of the word "God" in verse 19. There IS, however, "Father" and "Son."

Within the Godhead, the Father (who is God), is the source of the Son's (who is God) power.

That doesn't make the Son not God. Nor does it make only the Father "God."

I will address the rest in another post later.
 

JudgeRightly

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So, you're claiming Jesus was talking about altitude . . . that makes no sense in the context.

So, are you capable of explaining what you meant by position if not altitude

You ignored the link that I posted which provided an explanation.

Here it is again:

 

Right Divider

Body part
I disagree.
Who cares? You're wrong.
No, I did not. Your beliefs and interpretations are not mine.
Jesus said that He would raise Himself. You think that He lied and that God raised him. Truth is He is God and God raised Him (i.e., He raise Himself just like He said that He would).
No he doesn't claim pre-existence. That doesn't make sense either within the verse or the surrounding passage.
Joh 17:5 KJV And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Jesus was with His Father before Creation (i.e., He is the Creator). Your argument is with scripture.
First you have Jesus asking the Father to glorify him. This means Jesus < God.
Nope, Jesus is God.
I'll read whatever books of the Bible I want. Paul did not confirm that Jesus was God.
I showed you the crystal clear passages. Your problem with that you disagree with scripture.
You make NO attempt to refute, you just give your bogus opinion again.
 
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