What is Jesus saying here?

Hilltrot

Active member
You are what we call deaf, dumb and blind.

Respond to the SCRIPTURE that I showed you which said that the LORD will place HIS FEET on the Mount of Olives on HIS RETURN at the DAY of the LORD.
I did. I pointed out that Zechariah said that Jesus was human. However, I should also point out that Chapter 14 is referenced in the Bible - but not in the Acts passage you mentioned. It is referenced at the end of Revelation. For me, when compared to the correct New Testament scripture, God mentioned in Chapter 14 is clearly not Jesus.

No, you didn't.
Now, I've responded to it twice. Do you require a third time?

Stop cherry-picking and instead respect the WHOLE BIBLE.
I gave a Bible verse and your response to it is "cherry-picking". Remember that you are the one who have chosen almost all of the Bible passages and verses and I have simply been explaining them. How am I "cherry-picking" when most of the passages I am discussing are not my own? You'all chose them.

As far as the whole Bible - that is my primary defense. The whole Bible is what repeatedly states there is one God and that Jesus is human - not God.
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
Forgiveness granted.
Apologies for pulling you in mid-conversation, but thought you and @Hilltrot, despite coming to different conclusions, share some similar premises.


I agree with you here.

I partially agree with you here. Jesus was the name given to the Son of God born to Mary. We have no indication that was His name prior to that time. But the text seems clear that He existed prior to that time, as you pointed out so clearly in the previous quote.

Nor was John an actual road builder. But the way needed to be prepared in some form (calling for repentance) for the coming of the human which the Word became.
It seems like we're mostly in agreement. Is there something in particular that you think we disagree on regarding John 1 or the divinity of Jesus Christ?
 

Right Divider

Body part
I did. I pointed out that Zechariah said that Jesus was human.
Nobody is denying that Jesus was human... He is ALSO GOD.

Zechariah says that the LORD will put His FEET on the Mount of Olives. Do you know who the LORD is?
However, I should also point out that Chapter 14 is referenced in the Bible - but not in the Acts passage you mentioned.
It does not need to be "referenced" (whatever you mean by that). It IS a reference. Jesus left with His FEET on the Mount of Olives. The "two men stood by them in white apparel" explained that this SAME Jesus would return IN LIKE MANNER. In other words, the LORD Jesus Christ will return (from out of a cloud) to place HIS FEET on the Mount of Olives.
It is referenced at the end of Revelation. For me, when compared to the correct New Testament scripture, God mentioned in Chapter 14 is clearly not Jesus.
So you think that the LORD will suddenly grow FEET?
Now, I've responded to it twice. Do you require a third time?
Yes, if you will actually do it this time.
I gave a Bible verse and your response to it is "cherry-picking". Remember that you are the one who have chosen almost all of the Bible passages and verses and I have simply been explaining them. How am I "cherry-picking" when most of the passages I am discussing are not my own? You'all chose them.

As far as the whole Bible - that is my primary defense. The whole Bible is what repeatedly states there is one God and that Jesus is human - not God.
That is fake news. The Bible throughout shows a TRIUNE God.
Gen 1:26 KJV And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
 

Hilltrot

Active member
Nobody is denying that Jesus was human... He is ALSO GOD.
So, you're insisting that God died?
Zechariah says that the LORD will put His FEET on the Mount of Olives. Do you know who the LORD is?
Zechariah actually said God. Your translation translated this to LORD. But I already said that.
God mentioned in Chapter 14 is clearly not Jesus.
It does not need to be "referenced" (whatever you mean by that). It IS a reference. Jesus left with His FEET on the Mount of Olives. The "two men stood by them in white apparel" explained that this SAME Jesus would return IN LIKE MANNER. In other words, the LORD Jesus Christ will return (from out of a cloud) to place HIS FEET on the Mount of Olives.
And once again, I'm telling you that this interpretation is wrong. When Jesus returns, God will return as well. This passage has a much closer relation to the end of Revelation where God and Jesus return. So even if there is an actual relation between Zachariah 14 and Act 1, it still doesn't show Jesus is God because Jesus returns with God.
So you think that the LORD will suddenly grow FEET?
God can do whatever he wants but I believe this is more likely a personification - it is an unexplained vision after all.
Yes, if you will actually do it this time.
Glad to ablige.
That is fake news. The Bible throughout shows a TRIUNE God.
Some think that Genesis 1:26 refers to the Divine Council. Other's think that it was a plurality of majesty. Plurality is also used for emphasis in Hebrew.

Since there is no evidence of the Jews believing in a Triune God, The idea that this refers to a Triune God is without merit.
 

Right Divider

Body part
So, you're insisting that God died?
Classic silliness on your part. Only the human Jesus died. The God Jesus is.... GOD!
Zechariah actually said God. Your translation translated this to LORD. But I already said that.
No, it does NOT! Its says LORD.
H3068
יְהֹוָה
yehôvâh
yeh-ho-vaw'
From H1961; (the) self Existent or eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God: - Jehovah, the Lord. Compare H3050, H3069.
Total KJV occurrences: 6521
It's the SAME Hebrew word used here:
Gen 2:4 KJV These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
So you're either confused or lying.
And once again, I'm telling you that this interpretation is wrong.
Once again, I'm telling you that YOUR interpretation is wrong.
When Jesus returns, God will return as well.
Duh. Jesus is God so that is true.
This passage has a much closer relation to the end of Revelation where God and Jesus return. So even if there is an actual relation between Zachariah 14 and Act 1, it still doesn't show Jesus is God because Jesus returns with God.
Jesus is God.
 

Hilltrot

Active member
Classic silliness on your part. Only the human Jesus died. The God Jesus is.... GOD!
So, you saying Jesus didn't die?
No, it does NOT! Its says LORD.
:D No it doesn't.
It's the SAME Hebrew word used here:
H3068 is the proper name for God. 99.99% of Hebrew scholars agree.
So you're either confused or lying.
I'm not the one who can't seem to decide if Jesus died or not.
Once again, I'm telling you that YOUR interpretation is wrong.
:D And once again, I'm telling you that this interpretation is wrong.
Duh. Jesus is God so that is true.
Two people walking into a room at the same time does not make them the same person.
Jesus is God.
😀 No he isn't.
 

Right Divider

Body part
So, you saying Jesus didn't die?
Again the childishness.
:D No it doesn't.
Yes, it does.
H3068 is the proper name for God. 99.99% of Hebrew scholars agree.
Yes, and it's translated LORD throughout the Bible. Many times LORD comes with GOD (elohim, which is also PLURAL). See AGAIN Gen 2:4.
I'm not the one who can't seem to decide if Jesus died or not.
Two natures; beyond your ability to understand.
Joh 1:1 KJV In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14 KJV And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
So simple that a child can understand it. But not an unbeliever.
 

Derf

Well-known member
It seems like we're mostly in agreement. Is there something in particular that you think we disagree on regarding John 1 or the divinity of Jesus Christ?
No, I don't think so. I tagged you because I referred to your thread, because I thought you and @Hilltrot had some things you might want to discuss. He seems to agree with your understanding of what Logos means, but doesn't think it is talking about the Son of God. And I told him he might enjoy your thread.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Two natures; beyond your ability to understand.
I personally am looking forward to your explanation of how He can have two natures. I'm not disagreeing with you that He does, but it is beyond my ability to understand, as well as most Christians, if not all.
 

Clete

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Silver Subscriber
No, I don't think so. I tagged you because I referred to your thread, because I thought you and @Hilltrot had some things you might want to discuss. He seems to agree with your understanding of what Logos means, but doesn't think it is talking about the Son of God. And I told him he might enjoy your thread.
Not the Son of God? Who else would He be? Who else could He be? Who does @Hilltrot say it is?

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
15 John bore witness of Him and cried out, saying, “This was He of whom I said, ‘He who comes after me is preferred before me, for He was before me.’ ”
16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
 

Clete

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Silver Subscriber
I personally am looking forward to your explanation of how He can have two natures. I'm not disagreeing with you that He does, but it is beyond my ability to understand, as well as most Christians, if not all.
Whats so hard to understand about it?

There was a time when God was Spirit only and then Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb and God became flesh and took on a nature that was not only physical but human. Then He died and was resurrected with a glorified (i.e. perfect and immortal) body which was still physical and still human and He retains that body to this day and forever more.

That seems pretty straight forward to me. Perhaps I've missed something important that needs clarified. Am I even talking about the same two natures that you guys are discussing?

We also, as Christians, have two natures. We have our fleshly sin nature and we have our mind. The two are in constant conflict. Surely you can relate to Roman 7:13-24, yes?
 

Hilltrot

Active member
Again the childishness.
It was a simple question. Do you not understand the question? Are you saying that Jesus didn't die?

It's simple. A child could understand it. Jesus died or he didn't. Which one is it?
Yes, it does.
:D No, it doesn’t
Yes, and it's translated LORD throughout the Bible. Many times LORD comes with GOD (elohim, which is also PLURAL). See AGAIN Gen 2:4.
It's translated a number of number of different ways depending on the English translation. Are you claiming that the Jews of the Old Testament thought Elohim referred to a plurality of persons in God?
Two natures; beyond your ability to understand.
So simple that a child can understand it. But not an unbeliever.
Yep, you're behaving like a Calvinist. When someone doesn't agree with you, it must be because they are a Satan-worshiper.

Sorry, I'm not. It's also sad that you're having to revert to Calvinistic behavior.

On to John 1:14 - Do you consider the Bible the word of God? What's it made of? Paper? Clay? Computer bits? However, even though I believe my Bible contains the word of God, I don't call the the Bible God.

But even if you don't like my interpretation of John 1, look at John 20:31. John makes it abundantly clear what I should believe. I should believe that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God. That's all.
 

Derf

Well-known member
Whats so hard to understand about it?

There was a time when God was Spirit only and then Jesus was conceived in Mary's womb and God became flesh and took on a nature that was not only physical but human. Then He died and was resurrected with a glorified (i.e. perfect and immortal) body which was still physical and still human and He retains that body to this day and forever more.

That seems pretty straight forward to me. Perhaps I've missed something important that needs clarified. Am I even talking about the same two natures that you guys are discussing?

We also, as Christians, have two natures. We have our fleshly sin nature and we have our mind. The two are in constant conflict. Surely you can relate to Roman 7:13-24, yes?
Sure. But those natures are imperfect. We're not perfectly depraved anymore, nor perfectly sanctified yet.

Jesus, however cannot be anything but perfect in BOTH of His natures. If anything is impossible for one or the other nature with respect to the other or one, then there's a conflict.

@Hilltrot brought up one such possibility--God is immortal, and man is mortal. If God becomes a man, does He lose His immortality, or does He bestow immortality? The evidence points to the former.
 

Clete

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Sure. But those natures are imperfect. We're not perfectly depraved anymore, nor perfectly sanctified yet.
Of course this is true as we have not yet arrived at the day of redemption. (Philippians 3:12-14, Ephesian 4:30 )
Jesus, however cannot be anything but perfect in BOTH of His natures. If anything is impossible for one or the other nature with respect to the other or one, then there's a conflict.
That would depend on what is meant by "perfect", wouldn't it?

The fact is that we were created with immortality in mind and so I doubt very much that there is any such potential for conflict. One has to keep in mind that we do not worship multiple Gods. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three distinct persons but there is still only one singular God. It was God, THE God, that became a man, died on that cross and rose from the grave. Thus, just as Christ physically did what the Father could not do in a Spirit form, so also if there is something that Christ's physical body cannot do then the Father does it and it's still God doing it.

This points out, by the way, another dual nature of God, the singular plurality. I wish the scripture went into more detail as to how that works but God, in His wisdom, chose not to include those details and so we'll have to wait for that understanding. Come Lord Jesus come!
@Hilltrot brought up one such possibility--God is immortal, and man is mortal. If God becomes a man, does He lose His immortality, or does He bestow immortality? The evidence points to the former.
Well Jesus did die and so, once again, it depends a lot on just what you mean by "immortal". As I mentioned a moment ago, man was created with immortality in mind. God did not want Adam to ever die and had he not eaten from that tree, he wouldn't have. Remember that the Tree of Life was also in that garden and it was not forbidden.

It seems then that Christ doesn't bestow immortality so much as He restores it to us. We have yet to put off this fleshly corruption and put on immortality and this swallow up death in victory (I Cor. 15:53-54) but it is there inside us in potentia, as the plant is in the seed which must be cast to the ground and die before it bears its fruit (John 12:24; Galatians 2:20).

Clete
 
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Derf

Well-known member
Of course this is true as we have not yet arrived at the day of redemption. (Philippians 3:12-14, Ephesian 4:30 )

That would depend on what is meant by "perfect", wouldn't it?

The fact is that we were created with immortality in mind and so I doubt very much that there is any such potential for conflict. One has to keep in mind that we do not worship multiple Gods. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three distinct persons but there is still only one singular God. It was God, THE God, that became a man, died on that cross and rose from the grave. Thus, just as Christ physically did what the Father could not do in a Spirit form, so also if there is something that Christ's physical body cannot do then the Father does it and it's still God doing it.

This points out, by the way, another dual nature of God, the singular plurality. I wish the scripture went into more detail as to how that works but God, in His wisdom, chose not to include those details and so we'll have to wait for that understanding. Come Lord Jesus come!

Well Jesus did die and so, once again, it depends a lot on just what you mean by "immortal". As I mentioned a moment ago, man was created with immortality in mind. God did not want Adam to ever die and had he not eaten from that tree, he wouldn't have. Remember that the Tree of Life was also in that garden and it was not forbidden.

It seems then that Christ doesn't bestow immortality so much as He restores it to us. We have yet to put off this fleshly corruption and put on immortality and this swallow up death in victory (I Cor. 15:53-54) but it is there inside us in potentia, as the plant is in the seed which must be cast to the ground and die before it bears its fruit (John 12:24; Galatians 2:20).

Clete
I think it's the capacity to die that comes upon God in the flesh. Adam and Eve had the capacity to die from their creation. I don't think God has the capacity to die, nor do the angels (though I don't know for certain about the angels), but humans always have. That appears to change with the resurrection.

Jesus, having the human capacity to die, but not the death sentence that seems to be passed through our fathers, was not immortal.

Someone (@Right Divider?) pointed out that Jesus died in His human nature, but I wonder if we've made too much of the "natures" of Jesus, especially in how we separate them. Did Jesus only partially die (the human part only)? That makes sound like Jesus wasn't fully man. But if He did fully die, that makes it sound like He was no longer God.

Of course, this leads us back to the question of what death is, too.
 

Right Divider

Body part
Someone (@Right Divider?) pointed out that Jesus died in His human nature, but I wonder if we've made too much of the "natures" of Jesus, especially in how we separate them. Did Jesus only partially die (the human part only)? That makes sound like Jesus wasn't fully man. But if He did fully die, that makes it sound like He was no longer God.
I'm sorry to have to tell you that you are very confused. No, we do not make "too much" of the natures of Jesus. We give them both their due respect. Jesus was FULLY God AND FULLY man. Jesus died in regard ONLY to His humanity.

You seem to be trying to mash the TWO natures into ONE with comments like "Did Jesus only partially die (the human part only)? That makes sound like Jesus wasn't fully man."
 
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Clete

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Silver Subscriber
I think it's the capacity to die that comes upon God in the flesh. Adam and Eve had the capacity to die from their creation. I don't think God has the capacity to die, nor do the angels (though I don't know for certain about the angels), but humans always have. That appears to change with the resurrection.
It depends on what you mean by "die".
Jesus, having the human capacity to die, but not the death sentence that seems to be passed through our fathers, was not immortal.
I disagree. Had He not intentionally laid down His life, He would never have died at all. His body was so devoid of the curse that His body didn't even decay while He was in the grave. There's no evidence that He would have ever experience the geriatric process and died of old age and, being God, He would not have been susceptible to accidental death or disease.

Someone (@Right Divider?) pointed out that Jesus died in His human nature, but I wonder if we've made too much of the "natures" of Jesus, especially in how we separate them. Did Jesus only partially die (the human part only)? That makes sound like Jesus wasn't fully man. But if He did fully die, that makes it sound like He was no longer God.
I didn't see what @Right Divider actually said but perhaps there is a point of doctrine on which he and I disagree because I believe there is strong biblical evidence to support the belief that Jesus died - period. When Jesus died, He was as dead as any other righteous person who had preceded him to the grave.
Of course, this leads us back to the question of what death is, too.
Precisely! Oh this website is fun when you find someone who can actually think!

What does it mean to die?

Well, biblically speaking, death is a spiritual issue, not a biological one. It is a spiritual separation. When your spirit separates from your physical body then your body is dead. When (if) your spirit is separated from God then you are spiritually dead.

Notice that death hasn't anything to do with whether or not you exist. When you die, you do not cease to exist, you simply move from one mode of being to another. (There are some who believe that those thrown into the Lake of Fire will be destroyed and no longer exist and I've heard decent arguments on both sides of that issue. Suffice it to say that IF that is the case (which I doubt but am not willing to be dogmatic about it) then that being the "second death" is the only sense in which death has anything to do with a cessation of one existence.)

As for Jesus' death, no one denies that Jesus gave up His Spirit and died physically but, in addition to that, Matthew 27:46 seems to make really clear that the Father had forsaken Jesus, which is to say that there had been a separation introduced between Christ and the Father, which is spiritual death, by definition. Jesus then gave up His Spirit (i.e. His Spirit left His body) and went to the place of the righteous dead (i.e. Abraham's Bosom or Paradise) for three days where all the other righteous dead had gone up to that point because they where not yet able to be in God's presence since the atonement had not yet been made. After being spiritually separated both from His body and from the Father for three days, Jesus not only rose from the dead but Abraham's Bosom would have been emptied out since there was now nothing separating those folks from being in the presence of God. Thus Jesus was every bit as dead as any righteous person has ever been.

Clete
 
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