What is forgiveness?

[PureX]

My mis-quote: UNforgiveness is the poison I swallow hoping someone else will die.

AH! That makes all the sense in the world!

Thanks!

 

[PureX]

Thank you. [emoji846]

So let's take this statement, above...



...and use this clarification to come up with a more precise definition:

Forgiveness is an intellectual, emotional and spiritual choice to stop feeling hurt, anger and resentment for those who have wronged us. This choice is often a continual process, rather than a one-time decision.

Is this pretty close?

I'd say that gets pretty close to the heart of it.

I might only add that forgiveness can also become a 'lifestyle', or perhaps we might call it a "philosophy, lived".

 

[Eric h]

Originally Posted by theophilus
My mis-quote: UNforgiveness is the poison I swallow hoping someone else will die.

I think the quote is 'anger is like drinking poison, hoping the other person will die.

This is a very dark anger, and it is often associated with a broken romance. When all else fails, the ex will be threatened with, if you don't come back to me, I will harm or kill myself.

If I die, it will be your fault, and my death will remain on your conscience. that will be your poison

 

[Eric h]

We can do nothing greater than the greatest commandments. If we are feeling anger towards someone, we cannot be loving them as we love ourselves.

Nothing should stand in the way of living these commandments, so we have to forgive the anger, to restore the commandments.

 

[theophilus]

I think the quote is 'anger is like drinking poison, hoping the other person will die.

What I posted was the way my Pastor said it and one of the ways I found it on the web. The way you phrased it is also on the web.

Poetic license I presume?

:idunno:

 

[PureX]

Are you of the opinion that no spiritual truth is logical, or that only some spiritual truth is illogical?

I think they each (spirit and reason) have their own kind of 'logic'. Sometimes they align, and sometimes they don't.

I've been an artist most of my life, and I can say from much experience that logic is NOT the only pathway to truth. Not by a long-shot. Intuition, irrationality, instinct, chance, and deliberate self-sabotage can often net as much truth as adherence to logical reasoning, can. We humans have many tools in the tool box with which to investigate the nature of (our) being. Logic is a useful one, but it's just one of them. And when investigating the spiritual (transcendent) realm, we'll need them all.

 

[glorydaz]

Glorydaz: Acknowledged. I can't love without God's help. Also these words of Christ come to mind:

A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

(John 13:34)

Since forgiveness is love, as you said, then are you and I supposed to forgive others the way Christ forgives us?

Supposed to? We are supposed to do many things. That's what the schoolmaster has told us (commandment). But after faith is come, the doing of it is HIS work in us. We are HIS workmanship.

Galatians 3:24-25
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:​

So the loving or forgiving I may do through my own efforts (because I'm SUPPOSED TO) will always be lacking, but the actual love and forgiveness I experience toward another will be what the Lord has worked in me as I'm being conformed into His image. This is why we can never boast about how we've forgiven someone or of how we love our neighbors. We can only boast of what the Lord has accomplished in us.

 

[Spockrates]

I think they each (spirit and reason) have their own kind of 'logic'. Sometimes they align, and sometimes they don't.

I've been an artist most of my life, and I can say from much experience that logic is NOT the only pathway to truth. Not by a long-shot. Intuition, irrationality, instinct, chance, and deliberate self-sabotage can often net as much truth as adherence to logical reasoning, can. We humans have many tools in the tool box with which to investigate the nature of (our) being. Logic is a useful one, but it's just one of them. And when investigating the spiritual (transcendent) realm, we'll need them all.

Seems you'd might make a good Kirk to my Spock! So are you thinking logic can do nothing to help me understand what ideas about forgiveness are true or false, or are you simply encouraging me to seek other methods of making such a determination in addition to logic?

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

I'd say that gets pretty close to the heart of it.



I might only add that forgiveness can also become a 'lifestyle', or perhaps we might call it a "philosophy, lived".

One thing I notice about your idea of forgiveness: You define it as what you feel, not as what you do. Is this always true? Is there no act we might describe as forgiving? Or would you like to broaden your definition?

 

[Spockrates]

PureX: I'm enjoying our conversation a great deal, BTW. I have great expectation I'm getting close to the truth I seek. Thank you!

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

Supposed to? We are supposed to do many things. That's what the schoolmaster has told us (commandment). But after faith is come, the doing of it is HIS work in us. We are HIS workmanship.

Galatians 3:24-25

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.



Philippians 1:6

Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:​

So the loving or forgiving I may do through my own efforts (because I'm SUPPOSED TO) will always be lacking, but the actual love and forgiveness I experience toward another will be what the Lord has worked in me as I'm being conformed into His image. This is why we can never boast about how we've forgiven someone or of how we love our neighbors. We can only boast of what the Lord has accomplished in us.

My apologies. Let me rephrase my question: Does Christ command us to forgive others the way God forgives us?

 

[PureX]

One thing I notice about your idea of forgiveness: You define it as what you feel, not as what you do. Is this always true? Is there no act we might describe as forgiving? Or would you like to broaden your definition?

What we think and feel will naturally be reflected in how we act. But I don't see forgiveness as an an externalized action, like an 'absolution'. Forgiveness is an internal choice, that when taken, changes how we think and feel. And then that, in turn, will likely be reflected in our outward actions.

 

[glorydaz]

Hi, Chrysostom. It seems the definitions found at the link you provided contradict one another. Is there one you prefer? If it will be helpful, I'm wondering what the word forgive means in this passage of scripture:

"But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

(Matthew 6:15)

It's a serious inquiry. For Christ appears to say you and I won't be forgiven by God if we fail to forgive. So I believe it's imperative I understand what the word forgive means in this context. Please tell me: What do you think it means?

That verse is the Lord showing man his need for a Savior.
It's the Lord showing man that without HIM, he has no hope of salvation.
The law shows man his inability....that we all must come to God for His mercy and grace.

To forgive is to cancel out....as though it had never happened. That can only be done by God and through His power working in us.

 

[Spockrates]

What we think and feel will naturally be reflected in how we act. But I don't see forgiveness as an an externalized action, like an 'absolution'. Forgiveness is an internal choice, that when taken, changes how we think and feel. And then that, in turn, will likely be reflected in our outward actions.

What you say sounds logical, but I'm not so sure it's the whole truth. The words of Christ speak to me:

"Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."

(Matthew 6:12)

Debt brings to mind something someone owes me. Forgiving such a debt reminds me of taking action by letting the one who owes me know she owes me no more. But do you disagree?

 

[PureX]

Seems you'd might make a good Kirk to my Spock! So are you thinking logic can do nothing to help me understand what ideas about forgiveness are true or false, or are you simply encouraging me to seek other methods of making such a determination in addition to logic?

I think it's very interesting that there are ideals that create their own reality, when they're adopted. "God" is one of those ideals, and so is the value (spiritual healing) of 'forgiveness', I think. The justifications of these ideals are not found so much in their logic, or their evidential proofs, it's found in their embodiment. We need to take them into ourselves, as a conceptual paradigm, and live by them for a while, to see if and how they really 'work' for us. Only then can we reasonably decide the truthfulness of them, as ideals.

It's almost like adopting a personality, and living as if it's us, to see if our life would be better as that person. What a strange and interesting thing to do!

But in a way, I think this is what we have to do to learn the 'truth' about forgiveness. (Or about "God".) We have to take the ideal into ourselves, and live through it for a while, to understand it and determine it's relevance to ourselves.

 

[glorydaz]

My apologies. Let me rephrase my question: Does Christ command us to forgive others the way God forgives us?

I guess I wasn't as clear as I thought I was. You have to know WHY the Lord "commanded us" to forgive others. He did it NOT because He expected us to do so, or even thought we could.

When our Lord walked among us, He preached the LAW....knowing full well that righteousness does not come from law keeping. So He laid it out......... the impossibility of being righteous. Here is what the law expects. Do you think the Lord Jesus Christ believed we could be perfect when He said this?

Matt. 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.​

It has to dawn upon each one of us....our inability and our need. "Wow, I can never be perfect as God." "Wow, I can never forgive others the way God does." Until we get to that point, we still stand on our feet thinking we can perform that which is impossible for us to perform. We must be brought to our knees. We must look to God for His GRACE. Which is what the Risen LORD revealed to Paul.

 

[heir]

you are misreading the passage that you quoted

No, I'm not. We have both redemption through His blood and ("even the") forgiveness of sins!

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;


See here!

Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

 

[PureX]

What you say sounds logical, but I'm not so sure it's the whole truth. The words of Christ speak to me:

"Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors."

(Matthew 6:12)

Debt brings to mind something someone owes me. Forgiving such a debt reminds me of taking action by letting the one who owes me know she owes me no more. But do you disagree?

I see that quote as being about absolution, not forgiveness. I see forgiveness as being what happens internally, that perhaps results in absolution.

If you're asking if forgiveness perhaps requires this final external act of absolution (of the offender) to be 'complete', I think that may depend of the individuals involved. I don't think it's a hard rule.

I see Christianity as being basically an "inside job". Meaning that it's mostly about being healed internally, because we need it. Then, yes, our external actions will reflect this healing, and may help us, then, to heal others.

I shy away from religious admonishments of seeking or conferring 'absolution' because I think it puts too much focus on laws and debts and tits for tats and eyes for eyes and all that OT nonsense. As a Christian, I am not beholding to OT religious ideals or laws. Especially not those that reinforce any sort of retribution theme. I think it's antithetical to the forgiveness theme of the NT that I do believe in as a Christian.

 

[Spockrates]

What is forgiveness?

That verse is the Lord showing man his need for a Savior.

It's the Lord showing man that without HIM, he has no hope of salvation.

The law shows man his inability....that we all must come to God for His mercy and grace.



To forgive is to cancel out....as though it had never happened. That can only be done by God and through His power working in us.

"To forgive is to cancel out, as though it had never happened." That kind of forgiveness sounds amazing to me! Let me see if it really is as it sounds by way of a practical application.

You find a homeless man sleeping outside your home. You invite him to spend the night, give him food, a warm bed, clothing. During the night he steals your best silverware and sneaks out. But police catch him leaving your home with the stolen goods. They ring your doorbell to wake you up, explaining their arrest and ask if you want to press charges.

Do you agree to press charges? Do you forgive the man? If so, in what way do you forgive him?

 

[Spockrates]

What we think and feel will naturally be reflected in how we act. But I don't see forgiveness as an an externalized action, like an 'absolution'. Forgiveness is an internal choice, that when taken, changes how we think and feel. And then that, in turn, will likely be reflected in our outward actions.

So there are no acts of forgiveness, since forgiveness is never an act?