What Happens in Purgatory? Tim Staples

Catholic Crusader

Kyrie Eleison
Banned
So you need the death and resurrection of Jesus, plus fire, to be made pleasing unto the lord?
Jesus' death alone was sufficient for me.

Good for you. But right now you are still a sinner and imperfect, your process of salvation has only begun, and if you died today the Fire of God would have to cleanse you before you could enter heaven.

Your fantasy and delusion that you are not a sinner and cannot sin is a dangerous position to hold. It means that you are not confessing your sins to God.
 

Clete

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And you are the biggest of them all. A total blowhard who thinks he knows so much but doesn't know diddley squat about jack.
Yeah, sure, whatever. If you can refute a syllable of what I've said I'd receive it gladly but you won't because you can't. You couldn't respond with substance if your life depended on it. If you could, wild horses couldn't prevent you from doing it. All you've got is insult and bald claims of pretend realities.
 
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Hoping

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Good for you. But right now you are still a sinner and imperfect, your process of salvation has only begun, and if you died today the Fire of God would have to cleanse you before you could enter heaven.
Straw man argument, as I am perfectly sinless.
My process of salvation was concluded at my reception of the gift of the Holy Ghost, as Peter outlined in Acts 2:38.
Now I keep on the narrow path with the best of my God's gracefully given ability.
Your fantasy and delusion that you are not a sinner and cannot sin is a dangerous position to hold. It means that you are not confessing your sins to God.
I see nothing dangerous in obedience to God.
My life prior to me repentance from sin was dangerous.
My life under superiors who would not cease from sin was dangerous.
It is written..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God." (1 Peter 4:1-2)

BTW, I "can" sin any time I want, but I choose not to.
So can all of us...IF we take advantage of the gift of repentance and crucify the flesh with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
 
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Hoping

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Who said you should do that?
You did in post #60.
Why wait till after you are dead to become pure, when Jesus' sanctifying blood is available now?
That happens at baptism /faith. That's how you become gold, but gold still needs refining.
It isn't of God if it isn't pure enough after its sanctification by the blood of Christ.
Your POV is that purgatory can do what Jesus' blood couldn't do.
I disagree.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Nope I didn't change Hoping's post.

He really said this.

smh
It is the difference between love and hate.
Jesus said no man can serve two masters, and that they will love the one and hate the other.
If we choose to serve sin, (John 8:32-34), it shows we hate God.
It is written..."No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other." (Matt 6:24)
 

Clete

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It is the difference between love and hate.
Jesus said no man can serve two masters, and that they will love the one and hate the other.
If we choose to serve sin, (John 8:32-34), it shows we hate God.
It is written..."No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other." (Matt 6:24)
The arrogance of this is breath taking!

Hoping loves God more than all the Christians in the world who still do something wrong from time to time. Not only that but he not afraid to tell you so!


How is it even possible for people to be so self-deluded that they cannot hear their own words flatly contradicting the very thing those words are supposed to be supporting? Liberals and fascists (same thing) do it all day long so I understand that it's clearly possible, I just don't understand how anyone can tolerate it within their own mind. I'd want to go to the doctor if I found myself doing such a thing on any sort of regular basis. But, I suppose, the same thing that causes them to do it also makes them blind to it. What a frighteningly horrible condition to find yourself in! Sheesh!

Clete
 
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Hoping

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The arrogance of this is breath taking!
It is simple adherence to the word of God, enabled by the gift of the Holy Ghost in a man born of God's seed.
Jesus was indeed "arrogant" when it was called for.
Hoping loves God more than all the Christians in the world who still do something wrong from time to time. Not only that but he not afraid to tell you so!
If by "wrong" you mean like the time a few weeks ago when I dropped an entire turkey pot pie on the floor, I am among them.
But if you are referring to things like murder, theft, or adultery, I don't see that as a deed of a man submitted to God.
How is it even possible for people to be so self-deluded that they cannot hear their own words flatly contradicting the very thing those words are supposed to be supporting? Liberals and fascists (same thing) do it all day long so I understand that it's clearly possible, I just don't understand how anyone can tolerate it within their own mind. I'd want to go to the doctor if I found myself doing such a thing on any sort of regular basis. But, I suppose, the same thing that causes them to do it also makes them blind to it. What a frighteningly horrible condition to find yourself in! Sheesh!
I used to feel that way towards myself when I claimed to love God but got blind drunk everyday.
God freed me from that delusion like He can free you from your misdirected angst.
It starts with a REAL turn from sin.
 

Clete

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It is simple adherence to the word of God, enabled by the gift of the Holy Ghost in a man born of God's seed.
Jesus was indeed "arrogant" when it was called for.
You boast of arrogance!

Wow! That's a first!
If by "wrong" you mean like the time a few weeks ago when I dropped an entire turkey pot pie on the floor, I am among them.
But if you are referring to things like murder, theft, or adultery, I don't see that as a deed of a man submitted to God.

I used to feel that way towards myself when I claimed to love God but got blind drunk everyday.
God freed me from that delusion like He can free you from your misdirected angst.
It starts with a REAL turn from sin.
Do you also believe that you love God more Paul did?

Philippians 3:7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.​
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.​

What could Romans 7 possibly mean to you?

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.​
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!​
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.​

Do you just ignore such passages? Are they just flatly meaningless?

And no, I'm not talking about murder, adultery and theft. Those aren't merely sins, they're crimes, as is getting "blind drunk", by the way. I'm starting to suspect that you don't know what sin even is. You've probably redefined it into something utterly meaningless so that you can convince yourself that you've attained the sinless perfection that the Apostle Paul himself failed to attain. What possible motive anyone would have for such a thing, I can't imagine.

Clete
 

Hoping

Well-known member
You boast of arrogance!
Wow! That's a first!
I'm not really sure of what you mean?
How can one brag about the arrogance of Jesus?
At most, I can only thank Him for standing up to the hypocritical scribes and Pharisees.
You know, "Be angry and sin not".
Do you also believe that you love God more Paul did?
Philippians 3:7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.​
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.​
How can one know, or measure, how much Paul, or anyone else loves God.
We both love God enough to hold fast to the gift of repentance we have both been given...to the glory of God.
What could Romans 7 possibly mean to you?
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.​
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!​
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.​
Do you just ignore such passages? Are they just flatly meaningless?
Paul's lament of his past and still in the flesh is as heartbreaking as his narrative of his escape from it is elating.
Did you notice this?...23 "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
It is answered in Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
Paul presented us with a before and after scenario.
Before, under the Law and powerless to keep it, and after, free from the bondage he is now free from.
And did you notice this?...24 "O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?"
That lament was answered in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Again, a before and after proposition.
Before, wretchedly unable to escape the flesh, and after, the old man has been destroyed at its baptism into Christ and into His death and burial...only to be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
His narrative is a record of his conversion from fleshly man under the Law to a man who now walks in the Spirit and is free from the Law.
And no, I'm not talking about murder, adultery and theft. Those aren't merely sins, they're crimes, as is getting "blind drunk", by the way. I'm starting to suspect that you don't know what sin even is. You've probably redefined it into something utterly meaningless so that you can convince yourself that you've attained the sinless perfection that the Apostle Paul himself failed to attain. What possible motive anyone would have for such a thing, I can't imagine.
Clete
I agree with John on "what is sin".
It is written..."All unrighteousness is sin:..." (1 John 5:17)

If your kindly provided verses were your proof of Paul not attaining sinless perfection, I might remind you of what he said he had not yet attained..."If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead." (Phil 3:11)
I am glad he added this too..."Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)
It seems somebody was "perfect".

I will add this 1 Cor 15:34 verse for those on the cusp of conversion..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame."
 

Clete

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I'm not really sure of what you mean?
How can one brag about the arrogance of Jesus?
At most, I can only thank Him for standing up to the hypocritical scribes and Pharisees.
You know, "Be angry and sin not".
Don't be stupid. It is your own arogance you're boasting about.

And the very idea that the GOD who condescended to become a man could be arrogant is beyond anything I every thought I'd here someone who claims to be a Christian could ever allow to escape their lips. Is there ANY limit to your foolishness, ANY boundary you will not cross in defense of your "sinless perfection"?

How can one know, or measure, how much Paul, or anyone else loves God.
You can, apparently!

You're the idiot that claims sinlessness based on your love for God. Paul stated explicitly that he hadn't met that bar but you claim to have done it so you must believe that you love God more than Paul!

Here comes the part where Hoping tries to tell us that these passages don't mean what they say....
We both love God enough to hold fast to the gift of repentance we have both been given...to the glory of God.

Paul's lament of his past and still in the flesh is as heartbreaking as his narrative of his escape from it is elating.
Did you notice this?...23 "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."
It is answered in Rom 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
Paul presented us with a before and after scenario.
Before, under the Law and powerless to keep it, and after, free from the bondage he is now free from.
And did you notice this?...24 "O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?"
That lament was answered in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
Again, a before and after proposition.
Before, wretchedly unable to escape the flesh, and after, the old man has been destroyed at its baptism into Christ and into His death and burial...only to be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)
His narrative is a record of his conversion from fleshly man under the Law to a man who now walks in the Spirit and is free from the Law.
When you have to twist the passages this hard, its supposed to be a red flag to let you know you've made an error.

"Oh retched man that I am!" is written in the PRESENT TENSE. He did not say "Oh retched man that I was."

And Romans 6 was written BEFORE Romans 7 and so no, it was not written in answer to the question, "Who will deliver me for this body of death?" The answer was given immediately AFTER the question, not a chapter before. It is Jesus Christ who will (future tense) deliver us from our flesh.

I agree with John on "what is sin".
It is written..."All unrighteousness is sin:..." (1 John 5:17)
Are you actually this stupid?

Okay, let's play the game that 2nd graders play...

If sin is "all unrighteousness", then what is unrighteousness?

If your kindly provided verses were your proof of Paul not attaining sinless perfection, I might remind you of what he said he had not yet attained..."If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead." (Phil 3:11)
You argue against yourself!

It is when we are resurrected from the dead that we will be sinlessly perfect.

I am glad he added this too..."Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)
It seems somebody was "perfect".
What we have now, by faith, we will then see in reality. The only sense in which we are prefect now is in Him and that by faith. When we see Him face to face then our faith will become sight - not before.

I will add this 1 Cor 15:34 verse for those on the cusp of conversion..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame."
You have joined a cult, Hoping. You think and "argue" like a cultist. You avoid answering direct question and find any way you can to deflect to your standby truisms. It isn't an honest way to have any conversation and stands as further proof that you are deluded beyond any hope. I pity you. You may well believe just enough to make it to God's Heaven but what a foolish waste of arrogance your life will have been.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
Don't be stupid. It is your own arogance you're boasting about.
I don't know how you got the idea I was being arrogant when all I did was post what Jesus said in Matt 6:24.
And the very idea that the GOD who condescended to become a man could be arrogant is beyond anything I every thought I'd here someone who claims to be a Christian could ever allow to escape their lips. Is there ANY limit to your foolishness,
That is why I wondered why you seemed you accuse Jesus of being arrogant when He never was. when it wasn't called for.
ANY boundary you will not cross in defense of your "sinless perfection"?
There are no boundaries to the words of God.
You can, apparently!
Love is measureless.
You're the idiot that claims sinlessness based on your love for God. Paul stated explicitly that he hadn't met that bar but you claim to have done it so you must believe that you love God more than Paul!
Sorry you both feel that way and didn't understand Phil 3.
Here comes the part where Hoping tries to tell us that these passages don't mean what they say....
When you have to twist the passages this hard, its supposed to be a red flag to let you know you've made an error.
"Oh wretched man that I am!" is written in the PRESENT TENSE. He did not say "Oh wretched man that I was."
It was in the present-historical tense.
It was a narrative of a prior time.
A time when Paul was still walking after the flesh and still trying, unsuccessfully, to be obedient to the Law.
He alludes to this in Rom 7:5..."For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."
And again in Rom 7:18..."For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:..."
Those were both in the present tense, but about a former time.
That "flesh" had been killed in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
And Romans 6 was written BEFORE Romans 7 and so no, it was not written in answer to the question, "Who will deliver me for this body of death?" The answer was given immediately AFTER the question, not a chapter before. It is Jesus Christ who will (future tense) deliver us from our flesh.
Agreed, as Rom 7 is a sort of transition between Rom 6's death of the old man/flesh, and Rom 8's life walked with and in the Spirit.
Rom 7 is Paul's before and after.
If sin is "all unrighteousness", then what is unrighteousness?
Righteousness is loving God with all your heart and strength, and loving your neighbor as you love yourself.
Unrighteousness is the opposite.
You argue against yourself!
It is when we are resurrected from the dead that we will be sinlessly perfect.
Weren't you "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life"? (Rom 6:4)
I was, thanks be to God, after my death with Christ.
Or don't you believe what Paul says happens at out water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins? (Rom 6:3-7)
The thing I will gain after this vessel fades away and is resurrected is a new vessel...like Paul stated in Phil 3:21.
What we have now, by faith, we will then see in reality. The only sense in which we are prefect now is in Him and that by faith. When we see Him face to face then our faith will become sight - not before.
Are you not "in Him" and "faithful" all the time?
You can be.
You have joined a cult, Hoping. You think and "argue" like a cultist. You avoid answering direct question and find any way you can to deflect to your standby truisms. It isn't an honest way to have any conversation and stands as further proof that you are deluded beyond any hope. I pity you. You may well believe just enough to make it to God's Heaven but what a foolish waste of arrogance your life will have been.
You must not have much experience in defending sinning.
To pity me for obeying Christ inspires my obedience, and my thankfulness to God.
What are you thankful about?
 
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Clete

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I don't know how you got the idea I was being arrogant when all I did was post what Jesus said in Matt 6:24.

That is why I wondered why you seemed you accuse Jesus of being arrogant when He never was. when it wasn't called for.

There are no boundaries to the words of God.

Love is measureless.

Sorry you both feel that way and didn't understand Phil 3.

It was in the present-historical tense.
It was a narrative of a prior time.
A time when Paul was still walking after the flesh and still trying, unsuccessfully, to be obedient to the Law.
He alludes to this in Rom 7:5..."For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death."
And again in Rom 7:18..."For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:..."
Those were both in the present tense, but about a former time.
That "flesh" had been killed in Rom 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."

Agreed, as Rom 7 is a sort of transition between Rom 6's death of the old man/flesh, and Rom 8's life walked with and in the Spirit.
Rom 7 is Paul's before and after.

Righteousness is loving God with all your heart and strength, and loving your neighbor as you love yourself.
Unrighteousness is the opposite.

Weren't you "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life"? (Rom 6:4)
I was, thanks be to God, after my death with Christ.
Or don't you believe what Paul says happens at out water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins? (Rom 6:3-7)
The thing I will gain after this vessel fades away and is resurrected is a new vessel...like Paul stated in Phil 3:21.

Are you not "in Him" and "faithful" all the time?
You can be.

You must not have much experience in defending sinning.
To pity me for obeying Christ inspires my obedience, and my thankfulness to God.
What are you thankful about?
None of this is worth responding to directly. You aren't even trying. All you know how to do is deflect to your standby truisms - that and lie, which is far worse.

I'll leave it with stating that it isn't surprise at all that you refuse to give a direct answer to the question, "What is sin?" There isn't any clear and direct answer you could give that wouldn't prove you to be the sinner you claim not to be. Even the half answer you have given does that.

Clete
 

Hoping

Well-known member
None of this is worth responding to directly. You aren't even trying. All you know how to do is deflect to your standby truisms - that and lie, which is far worse.

I'll leave it with stating that it isn't surprise at all that you refuse to give a direct answer to the question, "What is sin?" There isn't any clear and direct answer you could give that wouldn't prove you to be the sinner you claim not to be. Even the half answer you have given does that.

Clete
As I know that the defense of sin is of no profit, I can understand your running away.
BTW, "standby truisms" written by God's apostles are true.
 

Clete

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As I know that the defense of sin is of no profit, I can understand your running away.
BTW, "standby truisms" written by God's apostles are true.
You're such a liar.

I took you off ignore in attempt to get you to have some sort of substantive discussion, just the exact opposite of running away. But you're impossible to have any sort of substantive exchange with. You're simply incapable of it. The best you've got is to send, as a final shot in defense of sinless perfection, an idiotic comment like accusing me of defending sin as though that doesn't count as a lie.

And it isn't God's word that are your truisms. But of course you knew that when you said that stupid comment too! The meaningless truisms that I'm referring to are comments like "There are no boundaries to the words of God.", "Love is measureless.", and straight out lies like, "That is why I wondered why you seemed you accuse Jesus of being arrogant when He never was. when it wasn't called for."

Such things aren't intended as substance. They're have truths and lies designed to make you feel better about not being about to address the fact that you're an arrogant ass who thinks that because he loves God more than everyone else, he is able to keep himself from sinning. It's the most ludicrously self-aggrandizing stupidity I've seen anyone post in months! Any third grade child could see through it.

Do you even notice it when you lie?

Lying is a sin, Hoping!

You are my best argument!

Clete
 
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