What Happens in Purgatory? Tim Staples

Idolater

"Never believe anyone who is not cross-examined."
No, but Christ died for ALL of my sins.
How do you think this distinguishes you from Catholics? And define exactly what you mean by "died for". Does that mean your choices if you choose to sin, don't have any consequences? And why would they, if Jesus "died for" them?
 

Right Divider

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I believe that if someone is going to try to refute a teaching they must first properly understand that teaching. As of now, from what I can see, not a single one of you (except Idolator of course) understands the actual teaching of Purgatory.

Arguing against something that you do not even understand is just ignorance.

Which one of you can correctly define the teaching about Purgatory?
 

Clete

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I believe that if someone is going to try to refute a teaching they must first properly understand that teaching. As of now, from what I can see, not a single one of you (except Idolator of course) understands the actual teaching of Purgatory.
I understand that whatever the teaching is, it does not exist in the bible. Jesus forgot to teach it and He failed to remind any of His apostles to teach it. What Jesus did teach is "It is finished."

Arguing against something that you do not even understand is just ignorance.
The unwritten premise being, "Arguing against something that you do not COMPLETELY understand is invalid."

That, of course, is a false premise.

Which one of you can correctly define the teaching about Purgatory?
All of us and anyone else who has access to a dictionary...

purgatory (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.)​
  1. A state in which the souls of those who have died in grace must expiate their sins.
  2. A place or condition of suffering, expiation, or remorse.
  3. In the belief of Roman Catholics and others, a place of purgation in which the souls of those dying penitent are purified from venial sins, or undergo the temporal punishment which, after the guilt of mortal sin has been remitted, still remains to be endured by the sinner.

Purgatory, n.; L. The state and the place of punishment where the temporal punishment due to sins previously forgiven must be endured, and the guilt of unrepented venial sins is cleared away from the soul of the person dying in the state of grace; the place of cleansing and preparation from which the soul goes directly to heaven. (Traditional Catholic Dictionary Online) Emphasis added​


Catholics believe that Christ died for mortal sins but that we have to pay the penalty for our own venial sins. Purgatory is where the guilt of such sins is purged from one's soul. Thus, at most, Catholics believe that Christ's blood, instead of actually washing away all of our sin, it merely makes such washing away possible but only if one is penitent when one dies.

It's outright heresy, bordering on blasphemy. It certainly is not biblical Christianity and anyone relying on purgatory for the salvation of their soul has departed from the faith entirely and will find themselves paying their entire sin debt by themselves in an eternal Hell because they are not trusting in the suffering of Christ but in their own.

Clete
 

Catholic Crusader

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I understand that whatever the teaching is, it does not exist in the bible . . . .

Well you started off with a big lie so the rest of your post (which is erroneous as well) is mute.

People here just do not know how to have a polite civil conversation.

Grow up man.
 

Clete

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Well you started off with a big lie so the rest of your post (which is erroneous as well) is mute.

People here just do not know how to have a polite civil conversation.

Grow up man.
Prove it.

You won't because you're the liar here, not me.

THIS WEBSITE IS 100% A WASTE OF TIME!
 

Catholic Crusader

Kyrie Eleison
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Just to reiterate what was said in Post #2:

Premise 1: There will be neither sin nor attachment to sin in heaven.

Premise 2:
We (at least most of us) are still sinning and are attached to sin at the end of this life.

Conclusion: Therefore there must be a period between death and heavenly glory in which the saved are cleansed of sin and their attachment to sin.

It is just that simple. In fact it is so simple that it takes great effort to deny this truth. What is the reason to deny this truth? Pride? Evil? Who knows.

Premise 1: There will be neither sin nor attachment to sin in heaven.

Premise 2:
We (at least most of us) are still sinning and are attached to sin at the end of this life.

Conclusion: Therefore there must be a period between death and heavenly glory in which the saved are cleansed of sin and their attachment to sin.

Because this is a deductive argument, if one wants to dispute the conclusion, he must take issue with one of the premises, since the conclusion follows from them necessarily.

So which is it?

Is it not true that the saved in heaven are perfectly sanctified? (“Nothing unclean shall enter [heaven].” — Rev 21:27).

Or is it not true that we are still sinning and attached to sin at the end of our earthly life? (If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” — 1 John 1:8).

You can’t get out of this argument by asserting, as I read one man say, that Christ covers us with his righteousness the moment we are justified, and therefore God sees us as he sees his Son, Jesus. To do this would be to deny the first premise (and what the Bible teaches) and to believe, instead, that the unclean will enter heaven, but that God will kid himself into believing otherwise.
 

JudgeRightly

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Just to reiterate what was said in Post #2:

Premise 1: There will be neither sin nor attachment to sin in heaven.

Premise 2:
We (at least most of us) are still sinning and are attached to sin at the end of this life.

Conclusion: Therefore there must be a period between death and heavenly glory in which the saved are cleansed of sin and their attachment to sin.

It is just that simple. In fact it is so simple that it takes great effort to deny this truth. What is the reason to deny this truth? Pride? Evil? Who knows.

Repeating yourself doesn't make what you said any less incorrect.

Your premise 2 is false, or at least, incorrect.

Christians still sin, even after they are saved, but not after they die, because they are still susceptible to the things in this world, especially the flesh. (Romans 7:18)

However, we are no longer bound by sin when we are saved, as Christ has freed us from those chains. (Romans 8)



Since Premise 2 is invalid, your conclusion is also invalid.

In addition, it does not necessarily follow that there must be a period of time after death and before going to heaven, let alone one that's needed to cleanse believers, as when one dies, he leaves his flesh behind, and his soul/spirit (which has been redeemed) ascends to heaven.



Yes, we still sin, but it's not we who do evil, but sin in us.

Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. - Romans 7:13-25 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:13-25&version=NKJV



Why not? It's what the Bible says.



False, because of the reasons given above.
 

Hoping

Well-known member
I believe that if someone is going to try to refute a teaching they must first properly understand that teaching. As of now, from what I can see, not a single one of you (except Idolator of course) understands the actual teaching of Purgatory.

Arguing against something that you do not even understand is just ignorance.

Which one of you can correctly define the teaching about Purgatory?
The entire idea of a purgatory is an accommodation for ongoing sin.
Paul wrote..."Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)
 

Catholic Crusader

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The entire idea of a purgatory is an accommodation for ongoing sin.

That sentence is gobbldeygook. What does it even mean?

I have 2 questions for you. Humor me.

1: Are you perfect right now?
2: The Seraphim angels are the burning ones. Why do they burn?
 

Clete

Truth Smacker
Silver Subscriber
I have already proven my side back on page one. You have failed to refute it.
You are a liar.

What in the world could you possibly consider the word "proof" to mean?

Stating your doctrine isn't even an argument! Even if you put "Premise 1:" in front of it!

And the answer to your question 1 is, "YES!"

Perfectly, totally, absolutely without blemish, in Him!

You wouldn't know anything about that, nor are you the least bit interested.

Our flesh has not yet been redeemed but our current flesh isn't going to be in Heaven, it is mortal and will indeed die because of sin for the wages of sin isn't purgatory, its death!

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

Question 2:
Hebrews 1:7 In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire.”

(i.e. is has exactly NOTHING to do with purgatory! - DUH! )

Clete
 

Hoping

Well-known member
That sentence is gobbldeygook. What does it even mean?
By supplying a constant remedy for sin, the initial Remedy for sin is pushed to the side and forgotten.
You don't thank God for freedom from sin, you thank your "church" for confession.
I have 2 questions for you. Humor me.
1: Are you perfect right now?
Yes, if you mean free of sin.
2: The Seraphim angels are the burning ones. Why do they burn?
It doesn't matter.
Point out the scripture you refer to.
 

Catholic Crusader

Kyrie Eleison
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1: Are you perfect right now?
Yes, if you mean free of sin.

Well, that's the end of this conversation. Its no wonder you cannot grasp the reality of Purgatory, you think you are sinless. What that is amazing. You Jesus and the Blessed virgin, the only three sinless people I know. Can I get your autograph?

Welcome to my ignore list. I have no time to speak to insane people.


I have 2 questions for you. Humor me.

1: Are you perfect right now?
2: The Seraphim angels are the burning ones. Why do they burn?

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Let me continue as if this had been answered correctly. A knowledgeable Christian would have said, No, I am not perfect. As Paul says, I am growing in Christ and working out my salvation in fear and trembling. And the reason the seraphim burn is because they are near the pure eternal fire of God. God is a consuming fire. Thats is why the Bible says that nothing unclean shall enter heaven, because it would not last in the presence of the fire of God.

At this point it is important to note that We do not believe Purgatory is a third place in addition to heaven and hell. Make a note of that kids. When God judges you, you are judged for either heaven of hell. Only those who are saved and judged for Heaven experience Purgatory.

Now, back to our premises:

Premise 1: There will be neither sin nor attachment to sin in heaven.
Premise 2:
We (at least most of us) are still sinning and are attached to sin at the end of this life.
Conclusion: Therefore there must be a period between death and heavenly glory in which the saved are cleansed of sin and their attachment to sin.

Basically, when you are before God and judged righteous, that fire of God that keeps the seraphim eternally burning burns away all the imperfections and tendencies to sin and all that is unclean in you. You become perfect as your heavenly father is perfect.

Hebrews 12:29 "For our God is a consuming fire."

As I said before, this is so simple that a child can understand it. Only the prideful and the heretic reject the Truth.


He's a bigger idiot than even you are!

And you are the biggest of them all. A total blowhard who thinks he knows so much but doesn't know diddley squat about jack.
 
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Idolater

"Never believe anyone who is not cross-examined."
Please QUOTE ME saying that.
I guess as long as that's not what you meant ...

Of course if that's not what you meant, I don't understand the purpose of your post. You seemed to be trying to make a point, and if that wasn't your point I don't know what was.
 
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