ECT WHAT DOES GEN 3:15 MEAN ?

[Tambora]

It's pretty obvious, Tam, that the Lord's enemies in the following are the physical seed of Abraham, but the spiritual seed of the Devil.

John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Spiritual in the sense of not physical.

He was telling them that they were of their father the Devil, spiritually.

Not physically, but spiritually.

In other words, in the Devil's same heart attitude (spirit) or mind, towards God, and the things of God. Thus, their behavior towards Him.

Rom. 5:6-8.

Abe's physical descendants that were faithful were considered to be his children, and his physical descendants that were not faithful were children of Satan.
No problem with that.
BUT ...... Abe also was the father of all the faithful folks that were NOT his physical descendants.



Some might say that's where the analogy sorta has a kink in it is that faithful folks that were NOT physical descendants of Abe were also considered as Abe's children.
So who were the faithful children that were NOT physical descendants of Eve, but would still be considered her seed because of their faith?

 

[Danoh]

You keep shortening Gen 3:15.

Genesis 3:15 KJV
(15) And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The enmity is between the serpent and the woman, and also between the serpent's seed and the woman's seed.

Not necessarily.

Often, in Scripture, the "and" is not in the sense of and added "also" but in the sense of "in other words."

As in the following...

Romans 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 4:20 Now unto God and our Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

In other words, it is sometimes used as means of saying a same thing, in a different way.

Note the very next clause - it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

ROTFL - I see you have yet to recover from your ever seeming "just crawled now out of bed."

Hebrews 11 describes what - example after example of various individual's walk of faith.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Now, go back to bed, get your full eight hours, and try again.



Rom. 5:6-8.

Funny bub.

I didn't need your advice but I did get my 8 hours.


Abel gave the best of his flock.


Cain didn't have the same choice all he could give was more.


So I will admit that I was wrong in saying that Abel didn't have a better mindset.


But was the fact that God made Abel a shepherd Cain's fault?

 

[Danoh]

Abe's physical descendants that were faithful were considered to be his children, and his physical descendants that were not faithful were children of Satan.
No problem with that.
BUT ...... Abe also was the father of all the faithful folks that were NOT his physical descendants.



Some might say that's where the analogy sorta has a kink in it is that faithful folks that were NOT physical descendants of Abe were also considered as Abe's children.
So who were the faithful children that were NOT physical descendants of Eve, but would still be considered her seed because of their faith?

The issue is a spiritual one, Romans 4, Gal. 3.

And all mankind is the physical descendant of Adam and Eve, Genesis 4, Romans 5.

 

[Danoh]

Funny bub.

I didn't need your advice but I did get my 8 hours.


Abel gave the best of his flock.


Cain didn't have the same choice all he could give was more.


So I will admit that I was wrong in saying that Abel didn't have a better mindset.


But was the fact that God made Abel a shepherd Cain's fault?

Lol - try your Bible, some time.

1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Romans 5:6-8.

 

[1Mind1Spirit]

Lol - try your Bible, some time.

1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Romans 5:6-8.

Evasion.

 

[glorydaz]

ROTFL - I see you have yet to recover from your ever seeming "just crawled now out of bed."

Hebrews 11 describes what - example after example of various individual's walk of faith.

Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Now, go back to bed, get your full eight hours, and try again.



Rom. 5:6-8.

Still thinking your condescending attitude is "cute", I see.

It isn't.

 

[Danoh]

Evasion.

Of the Body Snatchers?



Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[Danoh]

Still thinking your condescending attitude is "cute", I see.

It isn't.

Look hypocrite, I have left you completely well enough alone.

I happen to like the guy. Always have. Sometimes I joke with him. As I do with most on here other than your kind, given your duplicity.

You should talk - you and SOME of your pals on here are consistently condescending towards anyone you disagree with - even towards what few new posters even bother with TOL anymore, given what you and such have made it infamous for - your duplicity.

And from you, GD, a rabidly blind supporter of the most condescending individual ever to (dis) grace the White House.

Keep fooling yourself.

Consider yourself on the ignore I have had you on.

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[glorydaz]

Look hypocrite, I have left you completely well enough alone.

I happen to like the guy. Always have. Sometimes I joke with him. As I do with most on here other than your kind, given your duplicity.

You should talk - you and SOME of your pals on here are consistently condescending towards anyone you disagree with - even towards what few new posters even bother with TOL anymore, given what you and such have made it infamous for - your duplicity.

And from you, GD, a rabidly blind supporter of the most condescending individual ever to (dis) grace the White House.

Keep fooling yourself.

Consider yourself on the ignore I have had you on.

Rom. 5:6-8.

Such vitriol, and it was meant as a happy welcome back.

I like the guy more than you like the guy. So there.


Make America Great Again :banana:

 

[Tambora]

Not necessarily.

Not necessarily NOT either.

Often, in Scripture, the "and" is not in the sense of and added "also" but in the sense of "in other words."

And it can also mean in addition to.

So we are back to square one as to what it really means by the plain reading of the text.

As you and I have already discussed, there are layers/levels to meanings.
What is clearly physical may also have spiritual implications, but it does not eliminate the physical aspect.
The serpent and the woman were clearly physical beings, but could also represent something spiritual.
The question everyone wants to know is if both their "seed" are physical, but also represent something spiritual; or if both their "seed" is only spiritual or only physical.
And as we can see, most of the words in the verse are being given several different meanings and going in all kinds of directions.

To me, and this is just my personal opinion, the plain reading of the text implies a physical animosity between the physical serpent and the physical woman, and that there will be animosity between his physical seed and her physical seed.
That may have spiritual implications as well, but does not eliminate the physical aspect.
But I'm not iron clad dogmatic about it, it is just the viewpoint I lean more toward.

And here is where one must decide if "seed" is singular or plural --- ie. a specific individual or a group of individuals.
I lean towards the view that it is ultimately speaking of two specific seeds - two individuals.
And I lean towards the view that those two are Christ and the one we refer to as the anti-Christ.
But as stated, I'm not dogmatic about it and am open to listen to other viewpoints as well.

The verse about striking the heel and the head of them also reminds me of the deadly head wound the anit-Christ will have, but will revive.

Man! This thread could go on for some time with all the interpretations to consider!!!!!

 

[Danoh]

Not necessarily NOT either.

And it can also mean in addition to.

So we are back to square one as to what it really means by the plain reading of the text.

As you and I have already discussed, there are layers/levels to meanings.
What is clearly physical may also have spiritual implications, but it does not eliminate the physical aspect.
The serpent and the woman were clearly physical beings, but could also represent something spiritual.
The question everyone wants to know is if both their "seed" are physical, but also represent something spiritual; or if both their "seed" is only spiritual or only physical.
And as we can see, most of the words in the verse are being given several different meanings and going in all kinds of directions.

To me, and this is just my personal opinion, the plain reading of the text implies a physical animosity between the physical serpent and the physical woman, and that there will be animosity between his physical seed and her physical seed.
That may have spiritual implications as well, but does not eliminate the physical aspect.
But I'm not iron clad dogmatic about it, it is just the viewpoint I lean more toward.

And here is where one must decide if "seed" is singular or plural --- ie. a specific individual or a group of individuals.
I lean towards the view that it is ultimately speaking of two specific seeds - two individuals.
And I lean towards the view that those two are Christ and the one we refer to as the anti-Christ.
But as stated, I'm not dogmatic about it and am open to listen to other viewpoints as well.

The verse about striking the heel and the head of them also reminds me of the deadly head wound the anit-Christ will have, but will revive.

Man! This thread could go on for some time with all the interpretations to consider!!!!!

The head heel imagery is perhaps connected to things familiar during Moses' time, and later.

As in that spiritual reference handed down to our very day about "an achiles heel."

Something I'd forgotten - until DP mentioned the thing about the legs - is that although a serpent is not an animal, it is referred to as a "beast."

And that the word for serpent there is a word meaning shining one.

Lucifer: The light bearer, or shining one.

All of which reminded me of that shining golden ox of a "beast" that the Israelites built right after the Exodus, in their idolatry.

All of which points back these things being more of a spiritual, rather than a physical nature.

I mean, I am ever open to hearing out the different views on a thing, as there is always something to learn from other viewpoints, but this being about a spiritual issue is what I continue to perceive the Scripture as pointing to, at this point.

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[Tambora]

The head heel imagery

I was going to gather the verses that use "heel".
The concordance doesn't give that many verses for the word so it won't be a lot to look at, but may help to see how it used elsewhere.
If I can get to it sometime this evening, I will.
Couldn't hurt.

 

[Tambora]

I mean, I am ever open to hearing out the different views on a thing, as there is always something to learn from other viewpoints, but this being about a spiritual issue is what I continue to perceive the Scripture as pointing to, at this point.

I can understand that.
I'm just not going to be too quick to discard that it may also have physical implications as well.

 

[iamaberean]

Lol - try your Bible, some time.

1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Romans 5:6-8.

Mat_13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat_13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat_13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

 

[Danoh]

Mat_13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat_13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat_13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Matthew 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Those tares are tares because they chose to be.

For in the OT, Disobedient or Unbelieving Israelites are forever being called upon to circumcise the foreskin of their hearts and quit being so disobedient and gainsaying against the LORD and His Prophets.

Likewise is the case in the NT, and in Paul's writings.

One example of MANY that could be cited, that illustrate this principle of choosing to be a "tare..."

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[iamaberean]

Gen 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

God was speaking to the serpent, so it was the Devils seed and Eve's seed.
Just substitute children for seed.

This scripture is so plain that it is hard to believe most people can't see it.

 

[iamaberean]

It certainly couldn't be physical descendants of the devil. So, it must be #2.

Because of the bruised heel and head, though, I figure it might be the unbelieving Jews...those who crucified Him. They were blinded. :idunno:

Jn_3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

It was physical because Gods word says that Cain was the child of the wicked one. Who other that the Serpent could that be?

Rev_12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

[Danoh]

Jn_3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

It was physical because Gods word says that Cain was the child of the wicked one. Who other that the Serpent could that be?

Rev_12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Nope - the sense is that of the particular spiritual outlook fallen man CHOOSES to walk in - just as Adam and Eve CHOSE to disobey God's instruction to them.

Case in point, the Physical but Spiritually disobedient seed of Abraham...

John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

Abraham's Physical seed, but the Adversary's Spiritual seed in outlook - by their own choosing.

Just like that, He described BOTH aspects in the SAME individuals.

And then BOTH aspects are described again...

8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Obviously, the words "seed" and "children" are interchangeable.

And the issue is that of what outlook one chooses to abide in - which is a spiritual issue.

The sense is that of the particular spiritual outlook fallen man chooses to walk in - just as Adam and Eve chose to disobey God's instruction to them...

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled,

And so on - the sense is that of a spiritual seed.

Which in turn is the issue of one's DECIDED focus...

Malachi 3:17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

Between the righteous and the wicked - in other words, between him that SERVETH God and him that serveth Him NOT.

Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

In short, one has a CHOICE to make...

1 Thessalonians 1:9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

And so on...

Rom. 5:6-8.

 

[Danoh]

Mat_13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat_13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat_13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Put away your ever obvious books based learning - a parable is one of various forms of analogy used in communicating a literal reality.

The field (analogy) is (represents) the (literal) world, and so on...

Heck, even the word "world" there, is a figure of speech meant to communicate a literal reality through a word by how that word is used there - as a figure of speech.

"What world are you from?"

"What's in your wallet?"

"Wake up and smell the coffee."

Each of which is apropos to what I am attempting to point out to you - that you are "off by a country mile" on the actual role of parables, as used in Scripture.

"Get with the program."

And so on...

Rom. 5:6-8.