Was God unloving for commanding homosexuals be put to death?

Was God unloving for commanding homosexuals be put to death?

  • YES

    Votes: 4 11.1%
  • NO

    Votes: 32 88.9%

  • Total voters
    36

shilohproject

New member
Originally posted by Turbo
They put the traditions of men in higher authority than God's word. ...Kind of like you...
Well, if you mean that I should support the execution of kids who are unruly, then yes. If you mean that I should support killing active homosexuals, then yes. If you mean that I shouldn't wear blended fibers, or interbreed cattle, or many other OT legal stips, then yes: I would put reason above what you call God's word.:cool:
 

Crow

New member
Originally posted by Ross
Many posts ago I cited the following verse:

Lev 20:9 If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.

I did so in response to another verse in Leviticus that got this thread going:

Lev 20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death


The point I was trying to make is that if we are going to cite a verse in Leviticus to condemn homosexuals, then shouldn't we be consistent and obey all the prohibitions in Leviticus.

Cursing one's parents involves more than saying bad words to them. It appears to be to live in such an manner that your very existance seems to be a curse to your parents.

No matter. Who on this board do you feel is advocating cursing one's parents? I haven't seen anyone.

Nor has anyone here that I am aware of gone out and slaughtered any homos. Do you know of any here who have? They'd be guilty of murder because the law of our land does not permit us to kill people for either cursing their parents or homosexuality. And we are to follow the law of the land as Christians.

It doesn't mean we can't speak out against it, and certainly I don't think children should curse their parents. But when's the last time you saw a "Children Who Curse Their Parents" Day Parade? Or when did you see the church make a Bishop out of a child who cursed his parents, and set him in authority over other Christians?

It's not that we don't think children should curse their parents. It just ain't a big in-your-face issue. And if you raise them properly, it usually isn't a problem.
 
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Ross

New member
Crow,

You're missing the point entirely. It isn't about children cursing their parents; or about homosexuality. Or killing either of them because of their actions. It's about consistency in application of the Law. If Christians are going to cite verses from the laws of Leviticus as justifiably condemning homesexuality; than they must cite ALL the laws in Leviticus and use these laws to inform their own lives as they would ahve homosexuals inform their own lives.

You can't say homesexuality is wrong because of Leviticus but still go on wearing "clothing woven of two kinds of material" (Lev 19:19). Both activities are condemned in Leviticus.

Ross
 

Crow

New member
Originally posted by Ross
Crow,

You're missing the point entirely. It isn't about children cursing their parents; or about homosexuality. Or killing either of them because of their actions. It's about consistency in application of the Law. If Christians are going to cite verses from the laws of Leviticus as justifiably condemning homesexuality; than they must cite ALL the laws in Leviticus and use these laws to inform their own lives as they would ahve homosexuals inform their own lives.

You can't say homesexuality is wrong because of Leviticus but still go on wearing "clothing woven of two kinds of material" (Lev 19:19). Both activities are condemned in Leviticus.

Ross

Ross, the law still exists. It has not passed away--Christ said not one tittle or jot would be stricken from the law until heaven and earth pass away. All men are condemned under the law as far as salvation goes unless they have been saved by grace through faith, and the price of their sins has been paid for by the sacrifice Christ made. The saved are dead to the law. It does not condemn them. This does not mean, however, that the law is dead.

That's the first function of the law--it condemns the wicked so that they need a savior and have reason to be reconciled into relationship with God.

The law serves a second purpose--it is also a criminal justice system. Do you see the penalty for wearing clothing of two kinds? No, because it was not a criminal act. It transgressed the law as pertaining to disobediance to God, but it was not a crime. Homosexuality had a penalty--it was not only a sin but also a crime. All lawbreaking is sin and can condemn the unsaved, but some sins are also crimes.

God does not expect Christians to keep those parts of the law for salvation purposes--we are dead to the law insofar as it imparts condemnation and sin. However, He does expect us to not be criminals. "I'm not under the law because I'm saved" will not excuse murder.

Furthurmore, we are told as Christians not to associate or even eat with Christians who break the crimimal law and moral law--homos, thieves, fornicators.
 

Ross

New member
Crow,

You raise an interesting point about how some of the commandments are a accompanied by a specific punishment (you call these crimes), while others aren't.

It seems that you're saying that we as Christians should still not do those acts in Leviticus that have a punishment associated with them. But we are free to change the punishment that God commanded of us. For example, here are crimes that God demands be punishable by death:

9 " 'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.
10 " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-with the wife of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
11 " 'If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
12 " 'If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.
13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

How is it that we should not obey God and put all these sinners to death?

Also, it seems that God saw adultry and homosexuality equally as bad (since He told us to use the same punishment - death - for both). But I don't see the same Christian fervency today against adultry as I do against homosexulality. Why is that?

Ross
 

Crow

New member
Originally posted by Ross
Crow,

You raise an interesting point about how some of the commandments are a accompanied by a specific punishment (you call these crimes), while others aren't.

It seems that you're saying that we as Christians should still not do those acts in Leviticus that have a punishment associated with them. But we are free to change the punishment that God commanded of us. For example, here are crimes that God demands be punishable by death:

9 " 'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.
10 " 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife-with the wife of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.
11 " 'If a man sleeps with his father's wife, he has dishonored his father. Both the man and the woman must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
12 " 'If a man sleeps with his daughter-in-law, both of them must be put to death. What they have done is a perversion; their blood will be on their own heads.
13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

How is it that we should not obey God and put all these sinners to death?

Also, it seems that God saw adultry and homosexuality equally as bad (since He told us to use the same punishment - death - for both). But I don't see the same Christian fervency today against adultry as I do against homosexulality. Why is that?

Ross

Ross, you're kind of getting some of what I'm saying--let me see if I can put it better.

Homosexuality and adultry are sexual crimes. Homosexuality gets more attention because it is more in our faces. If you see a man and woman walk around in the mall holding hands, do you know if they are married to each other or not?

And when is the last time you saw an "Adulterer's Day" parade? Or had a lecture at work about how you have to be tolerant and sensitive to adulterers?

God set the penalty for the listed crimes you cited all at death. But we are living in a country where the laws differ from God's laws, and we are instructed by God to obey the laws of the land.

Remember the story of the woman who was a prostitute--the old "go and sin no more" story? The Pharasees were trying to trick Christ. They asked Him if the woman, who is an adulterer, should be stoned.

Here's where the Pharasees were being sneaky. God demanded the woman be stoned, but they were governed by Rome, and under Roman law. Roman law forbade stoning. The Pharasees were trying to put Christ in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation.

He got out of it brilliantly. "Let he who be without sin cast the first stone." The Pharasees were sinning by trying to get the woman stoned without trial by a judge with two or more witnesses. Plus, they were well aware of Roman law.

We are in a situation similar to the one Christ was confronted with. We cannot take the law into our own hands, even though it is in oppostion to God's law. Take abortion, for instance. We as Christians cannot take the lives of abortionists--that is murder. We are not to break the law of the land. Christians are not to be vigalantes.
 
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Ross

New member
Crow,

Let me ask you a question. If you had it your way, would change the law of the land to conform to God's law and kill adulterers and homosexuals?

Ross
 

Lucky

New member
Hall of Fame
Originally posted by Ross
Also, it seems that God saw adultry and homosexuality equally as bad (since He told us to use the same punishment - death - for both). But I don't see the same Christian fervency today against adultry as I do against homosexulality. Why is that?

Ross
That seems like a fair question to ask. Perhaps, if Christians were as fervently against adultery as we are against homosexuality, then we wouldn't have the above average divorce rates inside the church (if there is any truth to those statistics that is.) After all, you don't have to divorce your cheating spouse if he or she gets executed for the crime. But why we aren't as fervent... :think: Maybe it's because in the past, adultery has always been a problem, whereas homosexuality comes and goes within a society. And Christians just want to keep homosexuality from further destroying America.
 

Crow

New member
Originally posted by Ross
Crow,

Let me ask you a question. If you had it your way, would change the law of the land to conform to God's law and kill adulterers and homosexuals?

Ross

Tough question. I don't know if I would have the guts to do so, but I think yes--I should.

One benefit would there would be a heck of a lot less of these two behaviors going on. STD's would take a nosedive, there would be fewer kids born without a father to support them financially and emotionally. Fewer kids raised in poverty and on public assistance. I could see that society would benefit in many ways. I think divorce would go down too.

It's a moot point. I don't have that power. I am here, and this is where I live. This is the set of circumstances I must deal with, and could have, would have, should have are neat to think about, but not my reality.
 

Delmar

Patron Saint of SMACK
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Re: Re: Was God unloving for commanding homosexuals be put to death?

Re: Re: Was God unloving for commanding homosexuals be put to death?

Originally posted by Elaine
No. Sodomites choose of their own free will to partake of their homosexual behavior and suffer the consequences. It would have been unloving of God to allow homosexuality and the diseases it cultivates to harm those who are innocent.

I'm not arguing with you but I think it would fair to say that most sodomites were first damaged by the free will of others then chose out of their brokenness. God was wise enough to see that,for the most part, this cycle could not be stopped without the collateral damage of destroying the perpetrator.
 
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shilohproject

New member
Originally posted by Lucky8 But why we aren't as fervent... :think: Maybe it's because in the past, adultery has always been a problem, whereas homosexuality comes and goes within a society.
Maybe it's because statistically heterosexuals are more common, by far, so it's easier to say "Look at them! Those evil homos!" rather than taking a look at ourselves and the unfaithful things we do?:think:
 

shilohproject

New member
Re: Re: Re: Was God unloving for commanding homosexuals be put to death?

Re: Re: Re: Was God unloving for commanding homosexuals be put to death?

Originally posted by deardelmar
...I think it would fair to say that most sodomites were first damaged by the free will of others then chose out of their brokenness.
deardelmar, this is very liberal of you! And Christian, too! Awesome! Welcome to the Think Tank, where thinking is encouraged, and disagreement is welcome!:cool:
 

Turbo

Caped Crusader
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Originally posted by Ross
Many posts ago I cited the following verse:

Lev 20:9 If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.

I did so in response to another verse in Leviticus that got this thread going:

Lev 20:13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death


The point I was trying to make is that if we are going to cite a verse in Leviticus to condemn homosexuals, then shouldn't we be consistent and obey all the prohibitions in Leviticus.
Excluding the amoral symbolic laws, yes.
 
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Ross

New member
Ross asks: "If you had it your way, would change the law of the land to conform to God's law and kill adulterers and homosexuals?"

Crow answers: "Tough question. I don't know if I would have the guts to do so, but I think yes--I should."



May God help us.
 

Turbo

Caped Crusader
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Originally posted by Ross
You can't say homesexuality is wrong because of Leviticus but still go on wearing "clothing woven of two kinds of material" (Lev 19:19). Both activities are condemned in Leviticus.
Some laws given to the Jews were symbolic, a shadow of things to come and a means of separating the Jews as a people. There is nothing inherently immoral about wearing mixed fabrics. But it would have been wrong for the Jews to disobey God by wearing mixed fabrics, because he commanded them not to do it.

This symbolic laws were given under the Covenant of Circumcision, and are not applicable to the body of Christ, according to Paul. Circumcision does not gain one favor with God anymore. Yet murder, adultery, homosexuality, theft, etc. are still immoral and always will be, and governments are still God's minister to punish criminals (Romans 13:1-4).
 

Delmar

Patron Saint of SMACK
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Re: Re: Re: Re: Was God unloving for commanding homosexuals be put to death?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Was God unloving for commanding homosexuals be put to death?

Originally posted by shilohproject
deardelmar, this is very liberal of you! And Christian, too! Awesome! Welcome to the Think Tank, where thinking is encouraged, and disagreement is welcome!:cool:

thanks er um except for the liberal part that was a low blow
 

shilohproject

New member
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Was God unloving for commanding homosexuals be put to death?

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Was God unloving for commanding homosexuals be put to death?

Originally posted by deardelmar
thanks er um except for the liberal part that was a low blow
It just goes to show ya how none of us fits so neatly into one little box, praise God!:cool: :bannana:
 
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