WARNING! Apostasy about to happen.
- Thread starter WatchmanOnTheWall
- Start date
nikolai_42
Well-known member
I just wanted to let you know I am trying to take it all in and consider it. But my experience has been that this way of identifying any prophetic figure in scripture (eschatological, at least) who is still expected to appear is fraught with difficulties. And the best way I know to characterize it is to repeat this scripture :
He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
Matthew 16:2-4
My point is not to call anyone a Pharisee - rather to point out that the signs (external markers) the Jews sought were an indication of their unbelief. Jesus told them plainly that there was something they needed to look for - not something to tickle their ears or eyes, but a straightforward assessment of the prevailing spirit of the age and indicators that could be easily confirmed by looking at scripture. They wanted signs to validate Jesus' claim to be God (and Jesus did heal...so they even had that) but the real problem was they simply didn't believe. His healings confirmed the faith of those the believed (it didn't create it). In other words - what they were looking for wasn't primarily external but something more definitive. To link that to prophecy, John said that the number of the beast was given for those that have wisdom to calculate. That wasn't an invitation to engage in all sorts of questionable manipulations of numbers and letters - but it was a note to those who were given eyes to see and ears to hear. In the words found in the book of Daniel :
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Daniel 12:10
Here, wisdom is directly contrasted with wickedness. In other words, it is primarily of moral quality, not academic rigor (though that certainly comes into play). So in trying to wade through the endless theories of who the AntiChrist is, who the False Prophet is, who the beast is (etc...), I am only strengthened in my conviction that this emphasis on externals is evidence that people love their theories more than the truth or even possibly that there is mass unbelief (will Christ find faith on the earth when He returns?). And even were someone to stumble over the true identity, they wouldn't (I don't believe) have the right grounding to evidence it and would still be subject to the deception. Just knowing the name and/or face and/or position of whoever the Man of Sin or the AntiChrist is does very little to arm anyone against their deception if they aren't more concerned with the nature of the truth (thus arming them to recognize a spiritual counterfeit) and with the basis of that individual's actions and intents. However, if you know what lies beneath the surface first, then when the MoS, AntiChrist, False Prophet etc... arrives on the scene, it will be clear who they are. Not from appearances or lineages or political activities, but because the spiritual causes and effects centering around this individual's appearing are well known (thus, signs of the times).
Having said that, I am still interested in your reasoning behind the identifications you provided. I am reading (sorry it takes me so long but I don't have a lot of time at once to devote to this) and will certainly respond when and as I can.
genuineoriginal
New member
Babylon the great is the city that hosts the largest number of Jews outside of the land of Israel.
At this time, New York City, New York, USA has the largest number of Jews of any city in the world outside of the land of Israel.
Jews in New York City
There are approximately 1.5 million Jews (as of 2001) in the New York metropolitan area, making it the second largest metropolitan Jewish community in the world, after the Tel Aviv Metropolitan Area in Israel (however, Tel Aviv proper has a smaller population of Jews than New York City proper, making New York City the largest community of Jews in the world within a city proper).
There are approximately 1.5 million Jews (as of 2001) in the New York metropolitan area, making it the second largest metropolitan Jewish community in the world, after the Tel Aviv Metropolitan Area in Israel (however, Tel Aviv proper has a smaller population of Jews than New York City proper, making New York City the largest community of Jews in the world within a city proper).
So what do you think it is all about?
genuineoriginal
New member
Revelation 18:1-5 1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. |
Here are my thoughts on the matter:
Babylon is the city of Nebuchadnezzar that the children of Israel went into when Jerusalem and the temple was destroyed by the Chaldeans the first time.
Because of that, Babylon refers to the captivity of the children of Israel in the Gentile nations, not just the city named Babylon.
"Come out of her, my people" is telling the children of Israel to come out of the Gentile nations and return to the land of Israel.
But, the verses also show that the great city, New York City, will be destroyed and that the children of Israel living there will need to flee the city to escape the destruction.
The timing of the destruction is found in previous verses.
The woman is sitting on a beast.
The woman is called a great city and a beast in Prophecy refers to an empire.
The city is New York City and the empire is the USA.
The seven heads of the beast are seven kings, or in the case of the USA they would be seven living presidents.
The timing is given by stating that five have fallen, one is, and one is not yet come.
The five that have fallen are living ex-presidents, the one that is would be the current president, which leaves the one that is not yet come.
The USA has a short period of time between the election of a president in November and the time that president assumes office in January.
This elected president would be the one that is not yet come.
Here is a list of the current presidents of the United States:
Five have fallen
- George H. W. Bush
- Barack Obama
- George W. Bush
- Bill Clinton
- Jimmy Carter
- Donald Trump
If all of these presidents are still alive when the next president is elected in 2020, then we will know that the time of the prophecy has come and New York City will soon be destroyed.
If any of those presidents die before the next president is elected, then the time would be seen at the next election where there are five living ex-presidents and one current president.
genuineoriginal
New member
I answered the questions, "who is the Babylon the great that mentioned in the book of revelation?" and "So what do you think it is all about?"
There is a lot more to the whole picture.
After the end of the seventy "weeks" prophecy (around 33 CE), the times of the Gentiles began.
The times of the Gentiles is also known as the time of Jacob's trouble and the great tribulation.
The prophecies in Revelation are primarily focused on the children of Israel and not on Gentile Christians.
The seven sealed scroll is about the great tribulation.
The seven trumpets are the gathering of the children of Israel back to the land of Israel.
The seven bowls are the wrath of God on the Gentile nations for their treatment of the children of Israel during the great tribulation.
The first mention of the beast empire is when he kills the two witnesses near the end of the seven trumpets in Revelation 11.
More about the beast empire is found in Revelation 13, which takes place during the seven trumpets.
The beast empire makes war against the saints and overcomes them, and the choice must be made of whether to accept the mark of the beast or refuse it.
Accepting the mark of the beast is the apostasy mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2:3
It is very simple to me.
The Babylon is organizations.
Jesus says to "come out of her My people".
I'm of the OPINION that, no one can ascertain what all of the symbology of Revelation actually means. We can theorize, guess, and contemplate, however, in the end analysis, we cannot call any of our opinions; Gospel. After all, we're trying to interpret 'Spiritual matters' with our physical/fleshly minds. We must keep in mind, the book of Revelation is basically a book of Spiritual symbols. It could be that God doesn't want us privy to certain details within that particular book?
One of your problems is, you have rejected the Gospel that the Apostle Paul was given, via; the Ascended Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, you're not a member of the 'Body of Christ' nor are you indwelt by the Holy Spirit. In other words, you're not a 'True Christian.' No matter how hard you try, you'll not be able to Spiritually discern what the Scriptures are saying. After all, by your own admission you don't believe anything the Apostle Paul has written. You basically stick to Matthew through John (The four Gospels) which were written, regarding the lost sheep of the House of Israel.
genuineoriginal
New member
The scriptures clearly teach that Babylon is a large city.
Revelation 17:18 18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. |
There is no reason to change Babylon from a large city into multiple organizations.
I know but it is filled with pagan religion and it is used as metaphor for fake faith. This is my contextual reasoning.
genuineoriginal
New member
That thinking led the early Protestants to label the Vatican (Roman Catholic) as Babylon.
Later Protestants have changed that to any denomination they consider has false teachings.
However, when the symbols used in prophecy are provided with a definite meaning, then not using that meaning is changing scripture to mean whatever you want it to mean instead of what the prophecy was intended to mean.
“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that's all.”
~Through the Looking-Glass
“The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”
“The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that's all.”
~Through the Looking-Glass
I don't follow organizations' reasoning.
Babylon is clear to me. Jesus says to "come out of her". We should not be in the organization.
genuineoriginal
New member
There are many beliefs that some people think are clear that are not what the Bible teaches.
The idea that Babylon is an organization and the Trinity doctrine are two such beliefs.
You, me, and everyone else should be open to having our beliefs challenged and refuted when they do not match what the Bible clearly teaches.
You want Babylon to be an organization because you can then apply the "come out of her" to people in an organization.
That is not what the Bible clearly teaches about Babylon.
The Bible clearly teaches that Babylon is a large city that will be destroyed.
Revelation 18:16-19 16 And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls! 17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, 18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! 19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate. |
genuineoriginal
New member
Rejection of what is clearly stated in the Bible for your own perspective of what is being said is not a good reason to do anything.
Seeing how chaotic Christian communities and doctrines are is a valid reason for refusing to take part in them.
That is called discernment.
Thinking that the Bible is telling you to get out of the organizations because that is how you want to interpret the verses about Babylon is called imagining a vain thing.
Psalm 2:1 1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? |