WARNING! Apostasy about to happen.

[meshak]

Rejection of what is clearly stated in the Bible for your own perspective of what is being said is not a good reason to do anything.

Seeing how chaotic Christian communities and doctrines are is a valid reason for refusing to take part in them.
That is called discernment.

Thinking that the Bible is telling you to get out of the organizations because that is how you want to interpret the verses about Babylon is called imagining a vain thing.

Psalm 2:1 1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?​

Ok, you are entitle to your opinion to follower organizations' information.

blessings.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

I just wanted to let you know I am trying to take it all in and consider it. But my experience has been that this way of identifying any prophetic figure in scripture (eschatological, at least) who is still expected to appear is fraught with difficulties. And the best way I know to characterize it is to repeat this scripture :

He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
Matthew 16:2-4

My point is not to call anyone a Pharisee - rather to point out that the signs (external markers) the Jews sought were an indication of their unbelief. Jesus told them plainly that there was something they needed to look for - not something to tickle their ears or eyes, but a straightforward assessment of the prevailing spirit of the age and indicators that could be easily confirmed by looking at scripture. They wanted signs to validate Jesus' claim to be God (and Jesus did heal...so they even had that) but the real problem was they simply didn't believe. His healings confirmed the faith of those the believed (it didn't create it). In other words - what they were looking for wasn't primarily external but something more definitive. To link that to prophecy, John said that the number of the beast was given for those that have wisdom to calculate. That wasn't an invitation to engage in all sorts of questionable manipulations of numbers and letters - but it was a note to those who were given eyes to see and ears to hear. In the words found in the book of Daniel :

Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Daniel 12:10

Here, wisdom is directly contrasted with wickedness. In other words, it is primarily of moral quality, not academic rigor (though that certainly comes into play). So in trying to wade through the endless theories of who the AntiChrist is, who the False Prophet is, who the beast is (etc...), I am only strengthened in my conviction that this emphasis on externals is evidence that people love their theories more than the truth or even possibly that there is mass unbelief (will Christ find faith on the earth when He returns?). And even were someone to stumble over the true identity, they wouldn't (I don't believe) have the right grounding to evidence it and would still be subject to the deception. Just knowing the name and/or face and/or position of whoever the Man of Sin or the AntiChrist is does very little to arm anyone against their deception if they aren't more concerned with the nature of the truth (thus arming them to recognize a spiritual counterfeit) and with the basis of that individual's actions and intents. However, if you know what lies beneath the surface first, then when the MoS, AntiChrist, False Prophet etc... arrives on the scene, it will be clear who they are. Not from appearances or lineages or political activities, but because the spiritual causes and effects centering around this individual's appearing are well known (thus, signs of the times).

Having said that, I am still interested in your reasoning behind the identifications you provided. I am reading (sorry it takes me so long but I don't have a lot of time at once to devote to this) and will certainly respond when and as I can.

Thank for trying to read it all. Well done.

However, I again will point out that your position is vague waffle. Basically you're saying;

'We can't know any thing specific about the identity of the AC/FP etc but we will know when it happens because of signs.. And to try and point out any specifics is wrong because God doesn't work that way (trust me)'.

Yet you cite virtually no scripture to support this view but the ones you do show you are misinterpreting. E.g: Matthew 16:2-4

Which is simply about Jesus stating that the only sign (proof) of his divinity would be His resurrection. Nothing to do with the end days. Although that said it can also point to Jesus returning on the third prophetic day, i.e. the third millennium from his death and resurrection. i.e. the year 2029. Which is the year of his return.

You can't seem to see that you are actually turning people away from looking into prophesy which is the opposite of what we should do. You should be saying. 'Well I'm going to keep studying prophesy till I get some definitive answers from it'. That's what I did and it works. My long post is all the study and scriptures that support my position.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Babylon the great is the city that hosts the largest number of Jews outside of the land of Israel.
At this time, New York City, New York, USA has the largest number of Jews of any city in the world outside of the land of Israel.

Jews in New York City
There are approximately 1.5 million Jews (as of 2001) in the New York metropolitan area, making it the second largest metropolitan Jewish community in the world, after the Tel Aviv Metropolitan Area in Israel (however, Tel Aviv proper has a smaller population of Jews than New York City proper, making New York City the largest community of Jews in the world within a city proper).​

Rev 17
18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

Rev 11
8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the GREAT CITY—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.

Jerusalem.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Revelation 18:1-5 1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. 3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.​

Here are my thoughts on the matter:

Babylon is the city of Nebuchadnezzar that the children of Israel went into when Jerusalem and the temple was destroyed by the Chaldeans the first time.
Because of that, Babylon refers to the captivity of the children of Israel in the Gentile nations, not just the city named Babylon.
"Come out of her, my people" is telling the children of Israel to come out of the Gentile nations and return to the land of Israel.
But, the verses also show that the great city, New York City, will be destroyed and that the children of Israel living there will need to flee the city to escape the destruction.

The timing of the destruction is found in previous verses.
The woman is sitting on a beast.
The woman is called a great city and a beast in Prophecy refers to an empire.
The city is New York City and the empire is the USA.
The seven heads of the beast are seven kings, or in the case of the USA they would be seven living presidents.
The timing is given by stating that five have fallen, one is, and one is not yet come.
The five that have fallen are living ex-presidents, the one that is would be the current president, which leaves the one that is not yet come.
The USA has a short period of time between the election of a president in November and the time that president assumes office in January.
This elected president would be the one that is not yet come.

Here is a list of the current presidents of the United States:
Five have fallen

1. George H. W. Bush
2. Barack Obama
3. George W. Bush
4. Bill Clinton
5. Jimmy Carter

one who is

1. Donald Trump

If all of these presidents are still alive when the next president is elected in 2020, then we will know that the time of the prophecy has come and New York City will soon be destroyed.
If any of those presidents die before the next president is elected, then the time would be seen at the next election where there are five living ex-presidents and one current president.

They also thought Ronald Wilson Reagan was the AC just because his name had 666 letters. No, the president is not the AC. In fact Trump is a Christian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOi5HvJkzZI

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

I'm of the OPINION that, no one can ascertain what all of the symbology of Revelation actually means. We can theorize, guess, and contemplate, however, in the end analysis, we cannot call any of our opinions; Gospel. After all, we're trying to interpret 'Spiritual matters' with our physical/fleshly minds. We must keep in mind, the book of Revelation is basically a book of Spiritual symbols. It could be that God doesn't want us privy to certain details within that particular book?

That is so defeatist. The keys to understanding the symbols are given elsewhere in the Bible. The Bible interprets the Bible and by believing what we read, rather than reading what we believe we can understand it. Having the Holy Spirit helps too.

BTW Gospel mean Good News.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Rev 17
18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

Rev 11
8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the GREAT CITY—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.

Two different cities.

Jerusalem.

Jerusalem cannot be Babylon, because Jerusalem is the great city of Israel and Babylon is the great city of the exile from Israel.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Two different cities.


Jerusalem cannot be Babylon, because Jerusalem is the great city of Israel and Babylon is the great city of the exile from Israel.

You said; "when the symbols used in prophecy are provided with a definite meaning, then not using that meaning is changing scripture to mean whatever you want it to mean instead of what the prophecy was intended to mean."

But in this case you forgo this conviction?

 

[genuineoriginal]

You said; "when the symbols used in prophecy are provided with a definite meaning, then not using that meaning is changing scripture to mean whatever you want it to mean instead of what the prophecy was intended to mean."

But in this case you forgo this conviction?

I am not changing meanings of the symbols.
The phrase "great city" is a literal description of a city with a large population, not a symbol that means something else.
Jerusalem, a great city, is spiritually called Sodom and Egypt, but is never called Babylon.

Only a tenth part of Jerusalem falls by earthquake (Revelation 11:13), but mystery Babylon is utterly destroyed by fire (Revelation 18:8).
They are two different great cities.

 

[nikolai_42]

Thank for trying to read it all. Well done.

However, I again will point out that your position is vague waffle. Basically you're saying;

'We can't know any thing specific about the identity of the AC/FP etc but we will know when it happens because of signs.. And to try and point out any specifics is wrong because God doesn't work that way (trust me)'.

Well...no. I'm saying that we both agree on the general premise that deception is going to be the cause of the great apostasy and the deluding of many to engage in utterly false worship of one who claims to be God. But where we part company is the nature of the proof. I say that the only reliable indicators themselves will be spiritual in nature. Not that they will be hidden or ethereal and mystical - but rather that they will be of a moral and spiritual quality such that "only the wise will understand" while "the wicked will do wickedly" (and not understand). In other words, the only infallible basis for identifying any prophetic character (ahead of time) is discernment. As can be seen by the profusion of theories based on physical characteristics, there is no sound way to test the soundness of an end-times scenario - at least not until after the prophecy is fulfilled. By then, it will often be too late.

Consider Jesus. The Jews (even the disciples!) looked for someone who would overthrow Rome - a deliverer from their political bondage. So they had a profusion of zealots who were looking to usher in the kingdom of God by violence. They were going to bring about what they expected. And the religious leaders rejected Jesus - in part - because He came from Galilee (they used scripture to prove it -- John 7:52). They rejected Him because He was supposedly of tainted lineage (born of fornication -- John 8:41). Meanwhile, they had someone who was performing miracles, prophesying infallibly and speaking with such great authority that even those who would apprehend Him had to admit His undeniable presence (John 7:46). Maybe ironically, this was in the midst of a debate over whether Christ would hail from Galilee or not (thus John 7:52).

And even with discernment, there is no guarantee the truth of the matter will be known well ahead of time - just in enough time to allow those who believe the truth to obey it and for those who don't to reject it to their judgment. The overthrow of Jerusalem in 70AD shows us that. When the believers in Christ saw Jerusalem surrounded with armies (which then, inexplicably, retreated) they fled to the hills and were spared the fate of those that did not heed Jesus' warning. You may say that this violates my premise of not looking to externals, but I will add that I don't deny that those externals are true and that those who trust the Lord's Word will benefit thereby. But in identifying personalities (whether they be individuals, nations or other entities), there is a difference between that and heeding a warning to flee in given conditions. But again, the conditions Jesus talks about in Luke 21:20-21 are clearly stated. And when you read the parallel passages in Matthew 24:15-16 and Mark 13:14-15, it is evident that the "wise" readers understood what was meant by the abomination of desolation. The only way to have interpreted that was to have had a way of identifying the marks of whatever this abomination was to be. And whether the believers knew ahead of time who it was (or not) I don't know. But they certainly had plenty of time once it was clear what was happening. But to those that did not obey, they rejected Christ. So their judgment goes back to their rejection of the person of Jesus Christ.

Yet you cite virtually no scripture to support this view but the ones you do show you are misinterpreting. E.g: Matthew 16:2-4

Which is simply about Jesus stating that the only sign (proof) of his divinity would be His resurrection. Nothing to do with the end days. Although that said it can also point to Jesus returning on the third prophetic day, i.e. the third millennium from his death and resurrection. i.e. the year 2029. Which is the year of his return.

What I find interesting here is that you want to impose a very strict reading on the passage when I find in it a principle, but when you want to apply it (potentially) to Christ's return. He clearly points to His death (sign of the prophet Jonah) so the warrant for expanding that is suspect. But what I am saying is that Jesus makes a point that doesn't just apply to this one scenario. He makes the general statement that a wicked and adulterous generation demands a sign. That is not simply applying to the people of Jesus' day (though his appearance certainly made that demand for the miraculous more likely), but establishing that an adulterous generation follows after something or someone only for what they can get and then deserts it (or him) only when they find they aren't getting what they want. Jesus made that point (less bluntly) to the multitude in John 6 after He fed the 5,000.

Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
John 6:26

They wanted to make Him king (John 6:15) because He did miracles. And when Jesus confronted them about it in verse 26, they then revealed the truth of what was in their hearts :

Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 6:26-35

First they were wanting to do great works for God. Then they demanded a sign so that they might believe Christ's work. They used Moses to justify their request - but Jesus told them they were (at best) missing the point. What they were seeking was there with them - in front of them - and they were looking for something else entirely (showing that they were more interested in satisfying their own ideas and lusts than they were in following Jesus).

And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
John 6:42

So they rejected Him because He didn't fit their natural understanding of what the Lord was after. Had they simply recognized their spiritual poverty, they would have realized what He was saying. All the external signs in the world weren't going to get them to believe - only poverty of spirit. That, in the end, was possessed only by the disciples who, evidenced by Peter's resignation to follow Christ, followed Him in spite of everyone else and because they knew who and what it was they were dealing with :

From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
John 6:66-69

They knew there was no other answer for them. They still, however, didn't have much of a clue what they were in for. But they knew who they were following.

That is all to say that at the heart of acceptance or rejection of Jesus was NOT the compliance with external signs, but a recognition both of who HE was (and is) and who WE are in light of Him. If the only import were the question surrounding resurrection of the dead, then at the least the Pharisees would have accepted Him on that point - while the Saducees would have rejected Him. But both rejected Him. The import of prophecy is not just to tell what is coming in the future, but to understand the nature of the times in which they come.

You can't seem to see that you are actually turning people away from looking into prophesy which is the opposite of what we should do. You should be saying. 'Well I'm going to keep studying prophesy till I get some definitive answers from it'. That's what I did and it works. My long post is all the study and scriptures that support my position.

If you mean I am turning people away from looking at prophesy as a puzzle to be assembled and figured out a la Graham Hancock, the Da Vinci Code and assorted spy flicks and books, then I would say that is a good thing. The foundation of understanding prophecy is not a right understanding of history and politics. It is an appreciation for the context of what God is doing in the earth and what issues are critical in any matter of eschatological interest.

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

Well...no. I'm saying that we both agree on the general premise that deception is going to be the cause of the great apostasy and the deluding of many to engage in utterly false worship of one who claims to be God. But where we part company is the nature of the proof. I say that the only reliable indicators themselves will be spiritual in nature. Not that they will be hidden or ethereal and mystical - but rather that they will be of a moral and spiritual quality such that "only the wise will understand" while "the wicked will do wickedly" (and not understand). In other words, the only infallible basis for identifying any prophetic character (ahead of time) is discernment. As can be seen by the profusion of theories based on physical characteristics, there is no sound way to test the soundness of an end-times scenario - at least not until after the prophecy is fulfilled. By then, it will often be too late.

Consider Jesus. The Jews (even the disciples!) looked for someone who would overthrow Rome - a deliverer from their political bondage. So they had a profusion of zealots who were looking to usher in the kingdom of God by violence. They were going to bring about what they expected. And the religious leaders rejected Jesus - in part - because He came from Galilee (they used scripture to prove it -- John 7:52). They rejected Him because He was supposedly of tainted lineage (born of fornication -- John 8:41). Meanwhile, they had someone who was performing miracles, prophesying infallibly and speaking with such great authority that even those who would apprehend Him had to admit His undeniable presence (John 7:46). Maybe ironically, this was in the midst of a debate over whether Christ would hail from Galilee or not (thus John 7:52).

And even with discernment, there is no guarantee the truth of the matter will be known well ahead of time - just in enough time to allow those who believe the truth to obey it and for those who don't to reject it to their judgment. The overthrow of Jerusalem in 70AD shows us that. When the believers in Christ saw Jerusalem surrounded with armies (which then, inexplicably, retreated) they fled to the hills and were spared the fate of those that did not heed Jesus' warning. You may say that this violates my premise of not looking to externals, but I will add that I don't deny that those externals are true and that those who trust the Lord's Word will benefit thereby. But in identifying personalities (whether they be individuals, nations or other entities), there is a difference between that and heeding a warning to flee in given conditions. But again, the conditions Jesus talks about in Luke 21:20-21 are clearly stated. And when you read the parallel passages in Matthew 24:15-16 and Mark 13:14-15, it is evident that the "wise" readers understood what was meant by the abomination of desolation. The only way to have interpreted that was to have had a way of identifying the marks of whatever this abomination was to be. And whether the believers knew ahead of time who it was (or not) I don't know. But they certainly had plenty of time once it was clear what was happening. But to those that did not obey, they rejected Christ. So their judgment goes back to their rejection of the person of Jesus Christ.



What I find interesting here is that you want to impose a very strict reading on the passage when I find in it a principle, but when you want to apply it (potentially) to Christ's return. He clearly points to His death (sign of the prophet Jonah) so the warrant for expanding that is suspect. But what I am saying is that Jesus makes a point that doesn't just apply to this one scenario. He makes the general statement that a wicked and adulterous generation demands a sign. That is not simply applying to the people of Jesus' day (though his appearance certainly made that demand for the miraculous more likely), but establishing that an adulterous generation follows after something or someone only for what they can get and then deserts it (or him) only when they find they aren't getting what they want. Jesus made that point (less bluntly) to the multitude in John 6 after He fed the 5,000.

Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
John 6:26

They wanted to make Him king (John 6:15) because He did miracles. And when Jesus confronted them about it in verse 26, they then revealed the truth of what was in their hearts :

Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.
Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?
Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
John 6:26-35

First they were wanting to do great works for God. Then they demanded a sign so that they might believe Christ's work. They used Moses to justify their request - but Jesus told them they were (at best) missing the point. What they were seeking was there with them - in front of them - and they were looking for something else entirely (showing that they were more interested in satisfying their own ideas and lusts than they were in following Jesus).

And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
John 6:42

So they rejected Him because He didn't fit their natural understanding of what the Lord was after. Had they simply recognized their spiritual poverty, they would have realized what He was saying. All the external signs in the world weren't going to get them to believe - only poverty of spirit. That, in the end, was possessed only by the disciples who, evidenced by Peter's resignation to follow Christ, followed Him in spite of everyone else and because they knew who and what it was they were dealing with :

From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
John 6:66-69

They knew there was no other answer for them. They still, however, didn't have much of a clue what they were in for. But they knew who they were following.

That is all to say that at the heart of acceptance or rejection of Jesus was NOT the compliance with external signs, but a recognition both of who HE was (and is) and who WE are in light of Him. If the only import were the question surrounding resurrection of the dead, then at the least the Pharisees would have accepted Him on that point - while the Saducees would have rejected Him. But both rejected Him. The import of prophecy is not just to tell what is coming in the future, but to understand the nature of the times in which they come.



If you mean I am turning people away from looking at prophesy as a puzzle to be assembled and figured out a la Graham Hancock, the Da Vinci Code and assorted spy flicks and books, then I would say that is a good thing. The foundation of understanding prophecy is not a right understanding of history and politics. It is an appreciation for the context of what God is doing in the earth and what issues are critical in any matter of eschatological interest.

No. For instance Daniel was a date setter and the WISEMEN worked out from him and the OT how, where and when to find the Messiah. You would have been there telling them not to bother and that God doesn't tell us anything like that. You need to make sure you get the Holy Spirit because at the moment it doesn't sound like it all.

 

[nikolai_42]

No. For instance Daniel was a date setter and the WISEMEN worked out from him and the OT how, where and when to find the Messiah. You would have been there telling them not to bother and that God doesn't tell us anything like that. You need to make sure you get the Holy Spirit because at the moment it doesn't sound like it all.

No. You need to distinguish between those who have been given direct revelation of these things and those who by study and prayer seek to understand what has been revealed. Daniel also told the king his dream and interpreted it. Daniel was given the visions and (in some cases) some direct interpretation. That is not the same as studying one’s bible. If you are claiming revelation of these things by direct explanation of the Holy Spirit then that is different than study. Daniel’ study was basically realizing that Judah’s captivity was coming to an end and in his diligence to search that out and intercede for his people the Lord granted him revelation of Christ. On the other hand, Simeon was led of the Holy Spirit but didn’t know the identity of Christ until he saw Him. I don’t know for certain how the Magi came to their conclusions about the star.

Dates are fine...but without direct instruction in time they are defined more by circumstances than chronology.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[WatchmanOnTheWall]

No. You need to distinguish between those who have been given direct revelation of these things and those who by study and prayer seek to understand what has been revealed. Daniel also told the king his dream and interpreted it. Daniel was given the visions and (in some cases) some direct interpretation. That is not the same as studying one’s bible. If you are claiming revelation of these things by direct explanation of the Holy Spirit then that is different than study. Daniel’ study was basically realizing that Judah’s captivity was coming to an end and in his diligence to search that out and intercede for his people the Lord granted him revelation of Christ. On the other hand, Simeon was led of the Holy Spirit but didn’t know the identity of Christ until he saw Him. I don’t know for certain how the Magi came to their conclusions about the star.

Dates are fine...but without direct instruction in time they are defined more by circumstances than chronology.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

No, Daniel actually did this in four different ways (not one or two ways as you misunderstand). Daniel prayed, researched the scriptures, received visions and a message from the angel Gabriel.

It was this combination that made Daniel a date setter, particularly Gabriel's message, although that would never have happened with out the prayer and research.

You also need to learn how the Wisemen from Babylon found the star and were led by scripture to find the messiah:
Read the OP here: http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?128699-Who-were-the-wise-men-And-are-you&highlight=

And watch the first 49 minutes here: