VESSELS OF WRATH

ByGraceAlone

New member
VESSELS OF WRATH

Romans 9

But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed ask him who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?” 21 Or hasn’t the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel for honor, and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory, 24 us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says also in Hosea, “I will call them ‘my people,’ which were not my people; and her ‘beloved,’ who was not beloved.”

Here we have those who are “vessels of wrath”, who are “prepared for destruction”, and therefore cannot be among the “vessels of mercy”, who are heaven-bound.

These “vessels of wrath”, are those who John says in his Gospel, “One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (3:36). These “disobey the Son”, and have the “wrath of God abiding” on them. They cannot be part of “the elect of God”.

Nevertheless, we are clearly told by Paul, that these “vessels of wrath”, God is “Enduring with MUCH patience”. WHY? WHY would God, Who has already marked these as “vessels of wrath”, even bother with them? They are hell-bound, they are not part of “the elect”, according to some, so, there is no reason WHY God is said to ENDURE with these, WITH MUCH PATIENCE?

There can be no doubt, that God’s desires that these “vessels of wrath”, would REPENT and BELIEVE in the Gospel, and become “vessels of mercy”. There is no other explanation for what Paul writes in verse 22.

The following passage from 2 Peter shows what Paul means.

2 Peter 3

Knowing this first, that in the last days mockers will come, walking after their own lusts 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For, from the day that the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation...9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but he is patient with You, not wishing that anyone should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

Firstly, there is an important variation in verse 9. Instead of reading as the King James and others so, “with US (ἡμᾶς)”, as in the Christians to whom Peter wrote to. We have the reading, “with YOU (ὑμᾶς), which is directed to the “mockers...walking after their own lusts”, and those in 2:1-2, “But false prophets also arose among the people, as false teachers will also be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction. Many will follow their immoral ways, and as a result, the way of the truth will be maligned.”

It is argued by those who are “Reformed” in their theology, that 2 Peter 3:9 refers, not to the “mockers”, and “false prophets, false teachers”, and heretics, but to the “elect”. IF, this is correct, then it must be asked, WHY would God need to be PATIENT with these “elect”? WHY would Peter say that God does not desire that any of these ELECT perish? It is a foolish statement, as God could NOT ever DESIRE this! It is an IMPOSSIBILITY, as they are ELECT!

There can be no doubt, that it is God’s DESIRE that the entire human race, were to REPENT and BELIEVE in the Good News, and not end up in eternal punishment. Nothing else fits these two passages.

This is what we read in 1 Timothy 2

“I exhort therefore, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and givings of thanks be made for all men: 2 for kings and all who are in high places, that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony in its own times

ALL MEN, that is, including, ALL Kings and those in authority; and it is God’s expressed DESIRE that ALL the human race, were “saved and come to a full knowledge of the truth”. Jesus Christ is said to have given Himself as a “ἀντίλυτρον”, for ALL, as Weymouth’s translation says, “who gave Himself as the redemption price for all”.

This is what we read in the Old Testament Book of Ezekiel 18:

“20 The soul who sins, he shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him. 21 “But if the wicked turns from all his sins that he has committed, and keeps all my statutes, and does that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live. He shall not die.22 None of his transgressions that he has committed will be remembered against him. In his righteousness that he has done, he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?” says the Lord Yahweh; “and not rather that he should return from his way, and live?..31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, in which you have transgressed; and make yourself a new heart and a new spirit: for why will you die, house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him who dies,” says the Lord Yahweh. “Therefore turn yourselves, and live!”

“Have I any pleasure in”, is in the Hebrew, “הֶחָפֹץ אֶחְפֹּץ”, meaning, “to will, to favor”, as in our New Testament passages. God says that the sinner should “turn themselves” from their wicked ways, and repent, and live, rather than to die. Which is what the Prophet Jonah preached to the Ninevites.

There are some who argue, that, if God so DESIRES the salvation of the entire human race, then they ALL will be saved. Otherwise, somehow God has “failed”. This is complete nonsense!

In 1 Thessalonians 4:3, Paul says, “For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality”. Paul here speaks of God’s “θέλημα” for all Christians to live godly lives. This is the “desire” of God. Now, because this “desire” is not fully accomplished in the lives of all believers, does this mean that somehow God has “failed”?

It is very clear from the Bible, that it is God’s expressed DESIRE that ALL humans are saved from eternal punishment, and were to spend eternity with the Lord.

However, not ALL will comply with the Just Demands of God, and accept the INVITATION to Eternal Life.

The Gospel is an INVITATION, as Jesus Himself says in the Parable of the Wedding Feast, in Matthew 22, where the Greek “καλέω” is so used in verses 4, 8, etc. An INVITATION is an OFFER to ACCEPT or REJECT. This is also clear from this passage, where those who were originally INVITED, made excuses not to attend; and they were REJECTED.

“Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited weren’t worthy. 9 Go therefore to the intersections of the highways, and as many as you may find, invite to the wedding feast.’ 10 Those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together as many as they found, both bad and good. The wedding was filled with guests.

In verse 14 Jesus says, “many were INVITED, but few chosen”

Regardless of the “theology” of some, it is very clear that God does DESIRE the salvation of the entire human race, and has INVITED everyone to PARTAKE of this OFFER of the Gospel. Though there are those who do REJECT this OFFER.

This is AGAINST “Reformed theology”!
 

musterion

Well-known member
What if vessels of wrath refers not to any individuals but to the judgments (containers) of wrath to be poured out upon the earth, as seen in Revelation?
 

musterion

Well-known member
"Prepared for" or "fitted" has the sense of worthiness or suited for something. It does not demand that God reprobated some individuals to wrath but, if anything, more reasonably means they fitted themselves for it.
 
Last edited:

ByGraceAlone

New member
"Prepared for" or "fitted" has the sense of worthiness or suited for something. It does not demand that God reprobated some individuals to wrath but, if anything, more reasonably means they fitted themselves for it.

true, but the point is that even with those who are hell-bound, God is Merciful, and desires that these repent and believe and accept eternal life
 

beloved57

Well-known member
Vessels of wrath, God has made some men for that purpose Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

It should be obvious that God didnt create all men to partake of His Salvation, if He made some as vessels of wrath and they are fitted for destruction.

From the greek contruction " being fitted for destruction" καταρτίζω its a perfect passive participle, and so it would mean they are in a permanent state of being prepared for destruction The word means in the context:


of men whose souls God has so constituted that they cannot escape destruction

Now we dont know who these people are, but the point is, they do exist and that for Gods Glory !
 

JudgeRightly

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Vessels of wrath, God has made some men for that purpose Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

It should be obvious that God didnt create all men to partake of His Salvation, if He made some as vessels of wrath and they are fitted for destruction.

From the greek contruction " being fitted for destruction" καταρτίζω its a perfect passive participle, and so it would mean they are in a permanent state of being prepared for destruction The word means in the context:


of men whose souls God has so constituted that they cannot escape destruction

Now we dont know who these people are, but the point is, they do exist and that for Gods Glory !

If this is true, God is UNJUST!
 

Hoping

Well-known member
VESSELS OF WRATH

Romans 9

But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed ask him who formed it, “Why did you make me like this?” 21 Or hasn’t the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel for honor, and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, willing to show his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that he might make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory, 24 us, whom he also called, not from the Jews only, but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says also in Hosea, “I will call them ‘my people,’ which were not my people; and her ‘beloved,’ who was not beloved.”

Here we have those who are “vessels of wrath”, who are “prepared for destruction”, and therefore cannot be among the “vessels of mercy”, who are heaven-bound.

These “vessels of wrath”, are those who John says in his Gospel, “One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (3:36). These “disobey the Son”, and have the “wrath of God abiding” on them. They cannot be part of “the elect of God”.

Nevertheless, we are clearly told by Paul, that these “vessels of wrath”, God is “Enduring with MUCH patience”. WHY? WHY would God, Who has already marked these as “vessels of wrath”, even bother with them? They are hell-bound, they are not part of “the elect”, according to some, so, there is no reason WHY God is said to ENDURE with these, WITH MUCH PATIENCE?

There can be no doubt, that God’s desires that these “vessels of wrath”, would REPENT and BELIEVE in the Gospel, and become “vessels of mercy”. There is no other explanation for what Paul writes in verse 22.

The following passage from 2 Peter shows what Paul means.

2 Peter 3

Knowing this first, that in the last days mockers will come, walking after their own lusts 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For, from the day that the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation...9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but he is patient with You, not wishing that anyone should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fervent heat, and the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

Firstly, there is an important variation in verse 9. Instead of reading as the King James and others so, “with US (ἡμᾶς)”, as in the Christians to whom Peter wrote to. We have the reading, “with YOU (ὑμᾶς), which is directed to the “mockers...walking after their own lusts”, and those in 2:1-2, “But false prophets also arose among the people, as false teachers will also be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction. Many will follow their immoral ways, and as a result, the way of the truth will be maligned.”

It is argued by those who are “Reformed” in their theology, that 2 Peter 3:9 refers, not to the “mockers”, and “false prophets, false teachers”, and heretics, but to the “elect”. IF, this is correct, then it must be asked, WHY would God need to be PATIENT with these “elect”? WHY would Peter say that God does not desire that any of these ELECT perish? It is a foolish statement, as God could NOT ever DESIRE this! It is an IMPOSSIBILITY, as they are ELECT!

There can be no doubt, that it is God’s DESIRE that the entire human race, were to REPENT and BELIEVE in the Good News, and not end up in eternal punishment. Nothing else fits these two passages.

This is what we read in 1 Timothy 2

“I exhort therefore, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and givings of thanks be made for all men: 2 for kings and all who are in high places, that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony in its own times

ALL MEN, that is, including, ALL Kings and those in authority; and it is God’s expressed DESIRE that ALL the human race, were “saved and come to a full knowledge of the truth”. Jesus Christ is said to have given Himself as a “ἀντίλυτρον”, for ALL, as Weymouth’s translation says, “who gave Himself as the redemption price for all”.

This is what we read in the Old Testament Book of Ezekiel 18:

“20 The soul who sins, he shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be on him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him. 21 “But if the wicked turns from all his sins that he has committed, and keeps all my statutes, and does that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live. He shall not die.22 None of his transgressions that he has committed will be remembered against him. In his righteousness that he has done, he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?” says the Lord Yahweh; “and not rather that he should return from his way, and live?..31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, in which you have transgressed; and make yourself a new heart and a new spirit: for why will you die, house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him who dies,” says the Lord Yahweh. “Therefore turn yourselves, and live!”

“Have I any pleasure in”, is in the Hebrew, “הֶחָפֹץ אֶחְפֹּץ”, meaning, “to will, to favor”, as in our New Testament passages. God says that the sinner should “turn themselves” from their wicked ways, and repent, and live, rather than to die. Which is what the Prophet Jonah preached to the Ninevites.

There are some who argue, that, if God so DESIRES the salvation of the entire human race, then they ALL will be saved. Otherwise, somehow God has “failed”. This is complete nonsense!

In 1 Thessalonians 4:3, Paul says, “For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality”. Paul here speaks of God’s “θέλημα” for all Christians to live godly lives. This is the “desire” of God. Now, because this “desire” is not fully accomplished in the lives of all believers, does this mean that somehow God has “failed”?

It is very clear from the Bible, that it is God’s expressed DESIRE that ALL humans are saved from eternal punishment, and were to spend eternity with the Lord.

However, not ALL will comply with the Just Demands of God, and accept the INVITATION to Eternal Life.

The Gospel is an INVITATION, as Jesus Himself says in the Parable of the Wedding Feast, in Matthew 22, where the Greek “καλέω” is so used in verses 4, 8, etc. An INVITATION is an OFFER to ACCEPT or REJECT. This is also clear from this passage, where those who were originally INVITED, made excuses not to attend; and they were REJECTED.

“Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited weren’t worthy. 9 Go therefore to the intersections of the highways, and as many as you may find, invite to the wedding feast.’ 10 Those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together as many as they found, both bad and good. The wedding was filled with guests.

In verse 14 Jesus says, “many were INVITED, but few chosen”

Regardless of the “theology” of some, it is very clear that God does DESIRE the salvation of the entire human race, and has INVITED everyone to PARTAKE of this OFFER of the Gospel. Though there are those who do REJECT this OFFER.

This is AGAINST “Reformed theology”!
Kind of long, but I agree with it.
Welcome to the site.
 
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