Unless YOU believe that I am He (God) YOU Will Die in YOUR Sins, John 8:24

[Robert Pate]

It is our personal responsibility to find the truth and believe it.

If you find yourself in hell after the judgment don't blame God for it. It is not Gods responsibility to save you. He has done all that he can do to provide you with savation. He has given his only "Begotten Son" for your salvation. It is your responsibility to...
"Enter in at the strait gate" Matthew 7:13, 14. There are two ways for you to go, there is the strait gate which leads to eternal life and there is the broad way that leads to destruction. It is your personal resonsibility to seek out and find the strait gate that leads to eternal life. That is the purpose of this scripture. Jesus gives you a commandment, "Enter in at the strait gate".

The "strait gate" is Jesus Christ. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man can come to the Father but by me, John 14:6. There, I have just told you the way to the strait gate. Why do you want to continue on the broad way that leads to destruction? The broadway is the way of man, it is the way of religion. The broad way is the way that seems right unto a man, but it is the way of death and destruction, Proverbs 14:12.

The reason that the "Broad Way" is broad is because there are "many there be that go that way". It has to be broad to accomodate the masses that have rejected the strait gate and are continuing on the broad way that leads to death and destruction. If I was driving down the street and I saw that your house was on fire I would stop and bang on your door and tell you that your house was on fire. I am banging on your door NOW to tell you that if you are not totally and completely trusting in Jesus Christ to save you, YOUR HOUSE IS ON FIRE.

 

[daqq]

Unless YOU believe that I am He (God) YOU Will Die in YOUR Sins, John 8:24
It is our personal responsibility to find the truth and believe it.

If you find yourself in hell after the judgment don't blame God for it. It is not Gods responsibility to save you. He has done all that he can do to provide you with savation. He has given his only "Begotten Son" for your salvation. It is your responsibility to...
"Enter in at the strait gate" Matthew 7:13, 14. There are two ways for you to go, there is the strait gate which leads to eternal life and there is the broad way that leads to destruction. It is your personal resonsibility to seek out and find the strait gate that leads to eternal life. That is the purpose of this scripture. Jesus gives you a commandment, "Enter in at the strait gate".

The "strait gate" is Jesus Christ. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life: no man can come to the Father but by me, John 14:6. There, I have just told you the way to the strait gate. Why do you want to continue on the broad way that leads to destruction? The broadway is the way of man, it is the way of religion. The broad way is the way that seems right unto a man, but it is the way of death and destruction, Proverbs 14:12.

The reason that the "Broad Way" is broad is because there are "many there be that go that way". It has to be broad to accomodate the masses that have rejected the strait gate and are continuing on the broad way that leads to death and destruction. If I was driving down the street and I saw that your house was on fire I would stop and bang on your door and tell you that your house was on fire. I am banging on your door NOW to tell you that if you are not totally and completely trusting in Jesus Christ to save you, YOUR HOUSE IS ON FIRE.

WHO told you to insert "(God)" into John 8:24 in your thread title? :crackup:
HOW are you so sure that you yourself are not on the wide road that leads to destruction?

The Scripture says:

Psalm 8:5-6
4. What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5. For thou hast made him a little lower than Elohim, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Hebrews 2:6-12
6. But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7. Thou madest him a little lower than Elohim; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8. Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than Elohim for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of Elohim should taste death for every man.
10. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the Captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12. Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the congregation will I sing praise unto thee.

Psalm 22:18-25 KJV-RN
18. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19. But be not thou far from me, O YHWH: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20. Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21. Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22. I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23. Ye that fear YHWH, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24. For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25. My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.


:sheep:

 

[Robert Pate]

WHO told you to insert "(God)" into John 8:24 in your thread title? :crackup:
HOW are you so sure that you yourself are not on the wide road that leads to destruction?

The Scripture says:

Psalm 8:5-6
4. What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5. For thou hast made him a little lower than Elohim, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Hebrews 2:6-12
6. But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7. Thou madest him a little lower than Elohim; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8. Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9. But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than Elohim for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of Elohim should taste death for every man.
10. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the Captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12. Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the congregation will I sing praise unto thee.

Psalm 22:18-25 KJV-RN
18. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19. But be not thou far from me, O YHWH: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20. Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21. Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22. I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23. Ye that fear YHWH, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24. For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25. My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.


:sheep:

The reason that I inserted God into that scripture is because the bible teaches that Jesus is God. If you don't believe that Jesus is God that is your problem

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus) and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one" 1 John 5:7.

"For in him dwells all the fullness of the GODHEAD bodily" Colossians 2:9.

 

[kayaker]

Unless YOU believe that I am He (God) YOU Will Die in YOUR Sins, John 8:24

Sorry Robert... but, precisely who was Jesus speaking to when He spoke those words?

 

[beloved57]

Those Jesus Christ Lived and died for, He kept the Law for, in doing so He believed in God for them, For Belief and or Faith in God is necessary to in Obeying God's Law Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

And Jesus Christ did everything necessary, required that ought to have done to keep the Law for them !

 

[Robert Pate]

Those Jesus Christ Lived and died for, He kept the Law for, in doing so He believed in God for them, For Belief and or Faith in God is necessary to in Obeying God's Law Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

And Jesus Christ did everything necessary, required that ought to have done to keep the Law for them !

Jesus fulfills the law for us.

But faith and believing is something that we must do.

"Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

 

[beloved57]

Jesus fulfills the law for us.

But faith and believing is something that we must do.

"Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.

Faith is required to keep the Law Matt 23:23, you saying that Christ did not have Faith in God while obeying the Law?

 

[oatmeal]

It is our personal responsibility to find the truth and believe it.

That is true.

However, John 8:24 reads as follows:

"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins"

 

[Robert Pate]

Unless YOU believe that I am He (God) YOU Will Die in YOUR Sins, John 8:24

Sorry Robert... but, precisely who was Jesus speaking to when He spoke those words?

It doesn't say.

 

[kayaker]

So, we're down to Jesus speaking specifically to those scribes and Pharisees. Thank you B57. They seemed to have a real problem with Jesus in the NT. Do you think folk here on TOL are scribes and Pharisees, Robert? You seem to be painting with a rather large brush in your OP, don't you think? Jesus was talking to those scribes and Pharisees denying Jesus' divine origin/Paternity (John 8:13 KJV, John 8:19 KJV), and plotting Jesus' crucifixion (John 8:28 KJV, John 8:37 KJV). And, you Robert, put folk on TOL into that same category as those scribes and Pharisees in you OP statement:

Unless YOU believe that I am He (God) YOU Will Die in YOUR Sins, John 8:24

Rather broad accusation, don't you think? Furthermore, those scribes and Pharisees plotting Jesus' crucifixion wanted Jesus crucified because THEY said Jesus was God, isn't that what you're saying, Robert? Jesus is God?

John 10:31, 32, 33, KJV "Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works to ye stone me? 33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."​

Did Jesus make Himself God, Robert? Jesus continued:

John 10:34 KJV "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in you law, I said, Ye are gods?​

So, it wasn't Jesus who was God. According to Jesus' response, those who were plotting His crucifixion were gods. Where in the Books of Moses were 'they' referred to as gods, Robert? Jesus continued:

John 10:35 KJV "If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;​

Who was 'he' in "If he called them gods...", Robert? Where in the Books of Moses were 'they' called gods? Who was 'he' that called them gods in the OT? Jesus continued:

John 10:36 KJV "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the son of God?"​

So, Jesus said the FATHER sanctified Him, and SENT Him into the world. Those scribes and Pharisees, seeking Jesus' death, said Jesus made Himself God. You're saying Jesus made Himself God. Aren't you taking the same position as those scribes and Pharisees seeking Jesus' crucifixion, Robert? Jesus said somewhere in OT Scripture 'they' were gods. And Jesus concluded His defense that He said He was the "son of God." To sum this up:

Those scribes and Pharisees said Jesus made Himself out to be God. Jesus said they were gods. And Jesus said He was the son of God.

Yours is a pretty haughty position accusing virtually everyone but yourself with your opening OP. Do you know good from evil, Robert:

Genesis 3:4, 5, KJV "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."​

Didn't Jesus say those scribes and Pharisees were gods as mentioned in the OT?

Well, it just sounds to me that you've taken the same position as those conspiring to kill Jesus. They said Jesus made Himself out to be God, also. While Jesus said they were gods, and He was the Son of God. That's pretty interesting.

But, getting back to my specific question... who were those scribes and Pharisees seeking Jesus' crucifixion in John 8 where you took John 8:24 out of context? Those scribes and Pharisees said they were "Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man" (John 8:33 KJV). I don't suppose it occurred to you those scribes and Pharisees seeking Jesus' crucifixion were evidently not Israelites who HAD been in bondage in Egypt. That's pretty interesting, also.

So, in other words Robert... I seem to get the impression you really don't know who Jesus was talking to in your OP. B57 got them narrowed down to scribes and Pharisees. And, there seems to be a bit more definition laying on the table, here. So, those instigators of Jesus' crucifixion, who said Jesus was God, were Abraham's seed, affirmed by Jesus in John 8:37 KJV... but, they weren't "Abraham's children" (John 8:39 KJV). Maybe I'm splitting hairs just a bit, but didn't Paul hint around at this in Romans 9:6, 7, 8? Sure Robert, you've taken John 8:24 KJV out of context:

Unless YOU believe that I am He (God) YOU Will Die in YOUR Sins, John 8:24

Those Jesus was speaking to in that verse, instigating His death (John 8:28 KJV, John 8:37 KJV, John 10:31 KJV, John 10:32 KJV), said Jesus was God (John 10:33 KJV), just like you're saying. Quite interesting!


kayaker

 

[Robert Pate]

So, we're down to Jesus speaking specifically to those scribes and Pharisees. Thank you B57. They seemed to have a real problem with Jesus in the NT. Do you think folk here on TOL are scribes and Pharisees, Robert? You seem to be painting with a rather large brush in your OP, don't you think? Jesus was talking to those scribes and Pharisees denying Jesus' divine origin/Paternity (John 8:13 KJV, John 8:19 KJV), and plotting Jesus' crucifixion (John 8:28 KJV, John 8:37 KJV). And, you Robert, put folk on TOL into that same category as those scribes and Pharisees in you OP statement:



Rather broad accusation, don't you think? Furthermore, those scribes and Pharisees plotting Jesus' crucifixion wanted Jesus crucified because THEY said Jesus was God, isn't that what you're saying, Robert? Jesus is God?

John 10:31, 32, 33, KJV "Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works to ye stone me? 33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."​

Did Jesus make Himself God, Robert? Jesus continued:

John 10:34 KJV "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in you law, I said, Ye are gods?​

So, it wasn't Jesus who was God. According to Jesus' response, those who were plotting His crucifixion were gods. Where in the Books of Moses were 'they' referred to as gods, Robert? Jesus continued:

John 10:35 KJV "If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;​

Who was 'he' in "If he called them gods...", Robert? Where in the Books of Moses were 'they' called gods? Who was 'he' that called them gods in the OT? Jesus continued:

John 10:36 KJV "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the son of God?"​

So, Jesus said the FATHER sanctified Him, and SENT Him into the world. Those scribes and Pharisees, seeking Jesus' death, said Jesus made Himself God. You're saying Jesus made Himself God. Aren't you taking the same position as those scribes and Pharisees seeking Jesus' crucifixion, Robert? Jesus said somewhere in OT Scripture 'they' were gods. And Jesus concluded His defense that He said He was the "son of God." To sum this up:

Those scribes and Pharisees said Jesus made Himself out to be God. Jesus said they were gods. And Jesus said He was the son of God.

Yours is a pretty haughty position accusing virtually everyone but yourself with your opening OP. Do you know good from evil, Robert:

Genesis 3:4, 5, KJV "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."​

Didn't Jesus say those scribes and Pharisees were gods as mentioned in the OT?

Well, it just sounds to me that you've taken the same position as those conspiring to kill Jesus. They said Jesus made Himself out to be God, also. While Jesus said they were gods, and He was the Son of God. That's pretty interesting.

But, getting back to my specific question... who were those scribes and Pharisees seeking Jesus' crucifixion in John 8 where you took John 8:24 out of context? Those scribes and Pharisees said they were "Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man" (John 8:33 KJV). I don't suppose it occurred to you those scribes and Pharisees seeking Jesus' crucifixion were evidently not Israelites who HAD been in bondage in Egypt. That's pretty interesting, also.

So, in other words Robert... I seem to get the impression you really don't know who Jesus was talking to in your OP. B57 got them narrowed down to scribes and Pharisees. And, there seems to be a bit more definition laying on the table, here. So, those instigators of Jesus' crucifixion, who said Jesus was God, were Abraham's seed, affirmed by Jesus in John 8:37 KJV... but, they weren't "Abraham's children" (John 8:39 KJV). Maybe I'm splitting hairs just a bit, but didn't Paul hint around at this in Romans 9:6, 7, 8? Sure Robert, you've taken John 8:24 KJV out of context:



Those Jesus was speaking to in that verse, instigating His death (John 8:28 KJV, John 8:37 KJV, John 10:31 KJV, John 10:32 KJV), said Jesus was God (John 10:33 KJV), just like you're saying. Quite interesting!


kayaker

The Bible teaches that Jesus is God, John 10:30.

 

[kayaker]

The Bible teaches that Jesus is God, John 10:30.

And, after that verse, which you again take out of context, those seeking His death (John 10:31 KJV) said Jesus "being a man, makest thyself God" (John 10:32 KJV). Your same position, Robert. Jesus refuted their notion, and yours, stating they were gods (John 8:34 KJV), and Jesus is the "son of God" (John 10:36 KJV).

Possibly you don't grasp the Jesus' notion in John 10:30 KJV. The FATHER gave His sheep to Jesus (John 10:27 KJV, John 10:28 KJV). Jesus said in v. 29, "My FATHER, which gave them to ME, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:29 KJV). THEREFORE, neither are God's sheep able to be plucked out of JESUS' hand: "My Father and I are one" (John 10:30 KJV) as in ONE shepherd, Robert. God the Father, Jesus the son of God (John 10:36 KJV), ONE shepherd. Pretty simple, actually.

kayaker

 

[Squeaky]

Matt 7:12-14
12 "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
(NKJ)

John 6:63
63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.
(NKJ)

 

[Squeaky]

John 7:38-41
38 "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water."
39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
40 Therefore many from the crowd, when they heard this saying, said, "Truly this is the Prophet."
41 Others said, "This is the Christ." But some said, "Will the Christ come out of Galilee?
(NKJ)

John 8:23-24
23 And He said to them, "You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
(NKJ)

John 8:28-29
28 Then Jesus said to them, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.
29 "And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him."
(NKJ)

 

[Nanja]

The truth is this:

Salvation was never an offer to all humanity but was provided exclusively for
a Chosen People Is. 45:17, not by any works they do, but by God's Grace exclusively.

2 Tim. 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works,
but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

Just as in Adam, their natural head, all the Elect were made sinners, so also in Christ Jesus, their Covenant Head,
all His Sons chosen in Him Eph. 1:4-5, they were made Righteous by His Obedience to God's Commandments
in their behalf Rom. 5:19. Christ's Righteousness is charged to them, even before they believed.

The whole matter of Salvation was settled by God in Eternity Heb. 7:22; Phil. 1:29; John 3:18.

~~~~~

 

[Robert Pate]

And, after that verse, which you again take out of context, those seeking His death (John 10:31 KJV) said Jesus "being a man, makest thyself God" (John 10:32 KJV). Your same position, Robert. Jesus refuted their notion, and yours, stating they were gods (John 8:34 KJV), and Jesus is the "son of God" (John 10:36 KJV).

Possibly you don't grasp the Jesus' notion in John 10:30 KJV. The FATHER gave His sheep to Jesus (John 10:27 KJV, John 10:28 KJV). Jesus said in v. 29, "My FATHER, which gave them to ME, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:29 KJV). THEREFORE, neither are God's sheep able to be plucked out of JESUS' hand: "My Father and I are one" (John 10:30 KJV) as in ONE shepherd, Robert. God the Father, Jesus the son of God (John 10:36 KJV), ONE shepherd. Pretty simple, actually.

kayaker

Jesus is God. He is the second person of the Godhead.

"For there are THREE that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit: AND THESE THREE ARE ONE" 1 John 5:7.

No one can really understand how God can be three persons in one. It is beyond human comprehension.

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the first born of every creature. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in the earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions or principalities or powers: all things were created by him and for him. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist" Colossians 1:15, 16, 17.

You will not go wrong if you believe that Jesus is God. But you will go wrong if you believe that he is not.

 

[daqq]

So, we're down to Jesus speaking specifically to those scribes and Pharisees. Thank you B57. They seemed to have a real problem with Jesus in the NT. Do you think folk here on TOL are scribes and Pharisees, Robert? You seem to be painting with a rather large brush in your OP, don't you think? Jesus was talking to those scribes and Pharisees denying Jesus' divine origin/Paternity (John 8:13 KJV, John 8:19 KJV), and plotting Jesus' crucifixion (John 8:28 KJV, John 8:37 KJV). And, you Robert, put folk on TOL into that same category as those scribes and Pharisees in you OP statement:



Rather broad accusation, don't you think? Furthermore, those scribes and Pharisees plotting Jesus' crucifixion wanted Jesus crucified because THEY said Jesus was God, isn't that what you're saying, Robert? Jesus is God?

John 10:31, 32, 33, KJV "Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from my Father; for which of those works to ye stone me? 33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."​

Did Jesus make Himself God, Robert? Jesus continued:

John 10:34 KJV "Jesus answered them, Is it not written in you law, I said, Ye are gods?​

So, it wasn't Jesus who was God. According to Jesus' response, those who were plotting His crucifixion were gods. Where in the Books of Moses were 'they' referred to as gods, Robert? Jesus continued:

John 10:35 KJV "If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;​

Who was 'he' in "If he called them gods...", Robert? Where in the Books of Moses were 'they' called gods? Who was 'he' that called them gods in the OT? Jesus continued:

John 10:36 KJV "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the son of God?"​

So, Jesus said the FATHER sanctified Him, and SENT Him into the world. Those scribes and Pharisees, seeking Jesus' death, said Jesus made Himself God. You're saying Jesus made Himself God. Aren't you taking the same position as those scribes and Pharisees seeking Jesus' crucifixion, Robert? Jesus said somewhere in OT Scripture 'they' were gods. And Jesus concluded His defense that He said He was the "son of God." To sum this up:

Those scribes and Pharisees said Jesus made Himself out to be God. Jesus said they were gods. And Jesus said He was the son of God.

Yours is a pretty haughty position accusing virtually everyone but yourself with your opening OP. Do you know good from evil, Robert:

Genesis 3:4, 5, KJV "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."​

Didn't Jesus say those scribes and Pharisees were gods as mentioned in the OT?

Well, it just sounds to me that you've taken the same position as those conspiring to kill Jesus. They said Jesus made Himself out to be God, also. While Jesus said they were gods, and He was the Son of God. That's pretty interesting.

But, getting back to my specific question... who were those scribes and Pharisees seeking Jesus' crucifixion in John 8 where you took John 8:24 out of context? Those scribes and Pharisees said they were "Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man" (John 8:33 KJV). I don't suppose it occurred to you those scribes and Pharisees seeking Jesus' crucifixion were evidently not Israelites who HAD been in bondage in Egypt. That's pretty interesting, also.

So, in other words Robert... I seem to get the impression you really don't know who Jesus was talking to in your OP. B57 got them narrowed down to scribes and Pharisees. And, there seems to be a bit more definition laying on the table, here. So, those instigators of Jesus' crucifixion, who said Jesus was God, were Abraham's seed, affirmed by Jesus in John 8:37 KJV... but, they weren't "Abraham's children" (John 8:39 KJV). Maybe I'm splitting hairs just a bit, but didn't Paul hint around at this in Romans 9:6, 7, 8? Sure Robert, you've taken John 8:24 KJV out of context:



Those Jesus was speaking to in that verse, instigating His death (John 8:28 KJV, John 8:37 KJV, John 10:31 KJV, John 10:32 KJV), said Jesus was God (John 10:33 KJV), just like you're saying. Quite interesting!


kayaker

And, after that verse, which you again take out of context, those seeking His death (John 10:31 KJV) said Jesus "being a man, makest thyself God" (John 10:32 KJV). Your same position, Robert. Jesus refuted their notion, and yours, stating they were gods (John 8:34 KJV), and Jesus is the "son of God" (John 10:36 KJV).

Possibly you don't grasp the Jesus' notion in John 10:30 KJV. The FATHER gave His sheep to Jesus (John 10:27 KJV, John 10:28 KJV). Jesus said in v. 29, "My FATHER, which gave them to ME, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand" (John 10:29 KJV). THEREFORE, neither are God's sheep able to be plucked out of JESUS' hand: "My Father and I are one" (John 10:30 KJV) as in ONE shepherd, Robert. God the Father, Jesus the son of God (John 10:36 KJV), ONE shepherd. Pretty simple, actually.

kayaker

:up: :thumb:

Yes, pretty interesting . . . :chuckle:

 

[kayaker]

Jesus is God. He is the second person of the Godhead.

"For there are THREE that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit: AND THESE THREE ARE ONE" 1 John 5:7.

No one can really understand how God can be three persons in one. It is beyond human comprehension.

"Who is the image of the invisible God, the first born of every creature. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and that are in the earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions or principalities or powers: all things were created by him and for him. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist" Colossians 1:15, 16, 17.

You will not go wrong if you believe that Jesus is God. But you will go wrong if you believe that he is not.

You quoted John 10:30 KJV as corroborating the notion Jesus and God are one, as of the same entity. Sorry, Robert... in context, Jesus and God are ONE shepherd in context.

Now, take a listen to another verse you've taken out of context:

"For there are THREE that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit: AND THESE THREE ARE ONE" 1 John 5:7.

One what, Robert?

1John 5:1-8, KJV "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2) By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3) For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. 4) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5) Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 6) This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7) For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8) And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."​

The three bear record to what, Robert? TRUTH. Three witnesses to ONE TRUTH. What is the TRUTH, Robert? Please consider John 14:16 KJV, John 14:17 KJV, John 14:23 KJV, John 14:26 KJV. The Holy Spirit is One of these three witnesses. Jesus is one witness, and God is one witness. All three witnesses agree to ONE truth: Jesus is THE Son of God.

Jesus' divine origin/Paternity was challenged in John 8:13 KJV, and John 8:19 KJV after Jesus said He is the Light of the World (John 8:12 KJV). Jesus said He and His Father were TWO witnesses to Jesus' divine Paternity in John 8:18 KJV. Few even grasp the notion witnesses testify, Robert. So, where are the TWO testimonies of these TWO divine witnesses during that dialogue?

Please allow me to cut the the chase here, Robert: Jesus' testimony to His divine origin is found several verses later in John 8:38 KJV. What specifically and succinctly did Jesus SEE WITH HIS FATHER (two entities) that corroborated Jesus' divine origin? God's testimony to Jesus' divine origin, the second of two testimonies, is found in John 8:40 KJV. What specific and succinct truth did Jesus HEAR FROM HIS FATHER (two entities) that even Abraham didn't hear? TWO testimonies to ONE truth: Jesus' divine origin... no if ands or buts about it. Where's the third witness, Robert? Please allow me to direct your attention again to John 14:26 KJV.

Those TWO testimonies of those TWO witnesses are undiscerned without the Holy Spirit (John 14:26 KJV) being the third witness. Such remains a mystery asking around on TOL. Those THREE witnesses then complete the equation that three witnesses to Jesus' origin constitute ONE truth: Jesus is irrefutably THE begotten Son of God. In fact, Jesus' believers during that dialogue (John 8:30 KJV) were instructed to listen along, "continue in my word" (John 8:31 KJV), and His believers SHALL be "converted" (Matthew 13:15 KJV) and become Jesus' "disciples indeed" by knowing "the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32 KJV).

Jesus' testimony (John 8:38 KJV) was one witness to the truth of Jesus' divine origin. God's testimony (John 8:40 KJV) was another witness to the truth of Jesus' divine origin. So, what explicitly and succinctly did Jesus SEE WITH GOD, and HEAR FROM GOD, that corroborated Jesus' utterly and irrefutably divine origin? Sounds like a job for the third witness, the Holy Spirit of Truth. If you don't know the explicit and succinct details of these two testimonies (John 8:38 KJV, and John 8:40 KJV), then get in line, friend...

kayaker

 

[kayaker]

FWIW, Robert...

I've already asked the Catholics. Utterly clueless. Maybe Nanja and B57, being Calvinists, if I recall correctly, can render the explicit and succinct details of these two Divine testimonies: John 8:38 KJV, John 8:40 KJV. Seems like this sorta levels the playing field, don't you think? I've asked this of probably 5-6 MDIv/PhD theologians... only two said they see the quandary, being the proverbial 'door' btw... and they shared in their humility they didn't know how to open the door, either. So, please don't think I'm singling your out, Robert. You're in good company despite taking the same position as those who conspired the crucifixion agreeing with you that Jesus said He is God, contrary to His argument in John 10:30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36.

kayaker

 

[Robert Pate]

FWIW, Robert...

I've already asked the Catholics. Utterly clueless. Maybe Nanja and B57, being Calvinists, if I recall correctly, can render the explicit and succinct details of these two Divine testimonies: John 8:38 KJV, John 8:40 KJV. Seems like this sorta levels the playing field, don't you think? I've asked this of probably 5-6 MDIv/PhD theologians... only two said they see the quandary, being the proverbial 'door' btw... and they shared in their humility they didn't know how to open the door, either. So, please don't think I'm singling your out, Robert. You're in good company despite taking the same position as those who conspired the crucifixion agreeing with you that Jesus said He is God, contrary to His argument in John 10:30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36.

kayaker

Jesus is either God or he is a man. I believe that he is both.

If he is just a man, then that means that he was born after Adam and he is a sinner. If he was a sinner it would not be possible for him to atone for the sins of the world. God requires a perfect sacrifice for the sins of humanity.

Jesus had to be both God and man to save us. Jesus is God's new creation and Gods new humanity. Only God can raise people from the dead. Only God can turn water into wine.

"Unless you believe that he is who he claims to be, you will die in your sins".

We are saved by faith in Christ. You can't have faith in just a man.