Theology Club: Tribulation Doctrine

[SaulToPaul 2]

what does that mean ? tell us about the 70th week ! i want it to be clear to me too -

The man of sin is made known, a covenant is made for one week, in the middle of the week it is broken and he begins to persecute Israel.

During this time, there is a sharp distinction drawn between children of God and children of the devil.

 

[Danoh]

The man of sin is made known, a covenant is made for one week, in the middle of the week it is broken and he begins to persecute Israel.

During this time, there is a sharp distinction drawn between children of God and children of the devil.

Yep!

 

[musterion]

STP,

Would you mind posting, here or on a new thread, a similiar run on who exactly you think Paul is speaking to in his letters? Dispersed Jews? Proseltyes? "Near" Gentiles? A mix of the three? "Far" Gentiles?

 

[achduke]

The man of sin is made known, a covenant is made for one week, in the middle of the week it is broken and he begins to persecute Israel.

During this time, there is a sharp distinction drawn between children of God and children of the devil.

I believe different. Christ was the one in Daniel 9 to confirm the covenant of God which he did. In the middle of the week He was crucified and cutoff. This makes more sense then the man of sin confirming a covenant. This means there would only be 3.5 years left of the Great Tribulation which is spoken of in Revelation.

 

[steko]

I believe different. Christ was the one in Daniel 9 to confirm the covenant of God which he did. In the middle of the week He was crucified and cutoff. This makes more sense then the man of sin confirming a covenant. This means there would only be 3.5 years left of the Great Tribulation which is spoken of in Revelation.

When did the Lord Jesus Christ make a firm covenant with many for seven years and after 3 1/2 of those years cause the sacrifice and the grain offering to cease. You might supply the actual years that this time-frame covered based on whether Christ was crucified in 30AD or 33AD.
If you are referring to the New Covenant in Christ's blood, then why did it only last for seven years?

 

[achduke]

When did the Lord Jesus Christ make a firm covenant with many for seven years and after 3 1/2 of those years cause the sacrifice and the grain offering to cease. You might supply the actual years that this time-frame covered based on whether Christ was crucified in 30AD or 33AD.
If you are referring to the New Covenant in Christ's blood, then why did it only last for seven years?

He confirmed and renewed God's covenant. It only says week. The word for is not in the text. The Messiah is talked about in 9:26. That is the current context still in 9:27. The Messiah did come in the 70th week.

 

[steko]

He confirmed and renewed God's covenant. It does not say 7 years. It says a week or 7. The Messiah is talked about in 9:26. That is the current context still in 9:27.

The Hebrew is 'shabuah'. It means a set of seven somethings.
The context is years, the total being 70 sets of 7 or 490 years.
The Messiah was presented to Israel at 69 X 7= 483 years from the date that the commandment went forth from Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem including the wall (Neh 2) 444- 445 BC.
If one took the position that it means a seven day week, the time-frame doesn't work out.

 

[achduke]

The Hebrew is 'shabuah'. It means a set of seven somethings.
The context is years, the total being 70 sets of 7 or 490 years.
The Messiah was presented to Israel at 69 X 7= 483 years from the date that the commandment went forth from Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem including the wall (Neh 2) 444- 445 BC.
If one took the position that it means a seven day week, the time-frame doesn't work out.

I am not saying it does not mean 7 years. It only says one week. Christ did come in the 70th week but was cut off in the middle of that week. The word "for" is not in the text. Did he come in 70th week (1 additional week) or did he confirm for 1 week? We know he confirms the covenant forever.

 

[steko]

I am not saying it does not mean 7 years. It only says one week. Christ did come in the 70th week but was cut off in the middle of that week. The word "for" is not in the text. Did he come in 70th week (1 additional week) or did he confirm for 1 week? We know he confirms the covenant forever.

It says that the Messiah would be 'cut off' and 'have nothing' after the 69th week, therefore He came during the 69th week.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

This makes more sense then the man of sin confirming a covenant.

How about this?

Daniel 11
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

STP,

Would you mind posting, here or on a new thread, a similiar run on who exactly you think Paul is speaking to in his letters? Dispersed Jews? Proseltyes? "Near" Gentiles? A mix of the three? "Far" Gentiles?

First, lest Jerry slander me, I believe all of Romans-Philemon is for the Body of Christ, and contain doctrine for the Body of Christ.

I believe all of them were addressed to the Body, except for the Romans, who were not yet in the Body, and the Corinthians contained a mixed bag of people (members of the Body, members of the church of God).

 

[whitestone]

there also is mine own curiosity,,if those whom remain are caught up 1 Corinthians 15:23 KJV ,,, and they(denying Jew's) will not see him until they say Matthew 23:39 KJV then it would follow that they cannot confess Jesus as the Messiah and then deny him again by receiving another John 5:43 KJV ,,,

So first they receive the one who comes in his own name,then after this they realize that the one they received was not the true Messiah and that Jesus always was. Then they do say to Jesus "blessed is he that commeth in the name of the lord",,,then Jesus returns,then those dead in Christ rise,,then the rapture. But first this image of Israel must be formed,then the other come as their Messiah to fulfill them receiving him that comes in his own name.

 

[achduke]

How about this?

Daniel 11
21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

22 And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

I will research this and contribute more after I have done so.

Thank you,

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

there also is mine own curiosity,,if those whom remain are caught up 1 Corinthians 15:23 KJV ,,, and they(denying Jew's) will not see him until they say Matthew 23:39 KJV then it would follow that they cannot confess Jesus as the Messiah and then deny him again by receiving another John 5:43 KJV ,,,

So first they receive the one who comes in his own name,then after this they realize that the one they received was not the true Messiah and that Jesus always was. Then they do say to Jesus "blessed is he that commeth in the name of the lord",,,then Jesus returns,then those dead in Christ rise,,then the rapture. But first this image of Israel must be formed,then the other come as their Messiah to fulfill them receiving him that comes in his own name.

each man in his own order

the first shall be last, and the last shall be first


OT saints- first in the Bible, raised last
The little flock- second in the Bible, raised second
Body of Christ- last in the Bible, raised first

 

[Danoh]

there also is mine own curiosity,,if those whom remain are caught up 1 Corinthians 15:23 KJV ,,, and they(denying Jew's) will not see him until they say Matthew 23:39 KJV then it would follow that they cannot confess Jesus as the Messiah and then deny him again by receiving another John 5:43 KJV ,,,

So first they receive the one who comes in his own name,then after this they realize that the one they received was not the true Messiah and that Jesus always was. Then they do say to Jesus "blessed is he that commeth in the name of the lord",,,then Jesus returns,then those dead in Christ rise,,then the rapture. But first this image of Israel must be formed,then the other come as their Messiah to fulfill them receiving him that comes in his own name.

Consider your question is as much on you to attempt to solve for, as it is on anyone you ask it of...

And the way to attempt to is, yes, to ask such questions, but also, to then actually attempt to solve for them oneself - by asking oneself "is there any kind of precedent for this that I am asking about anywhere in Scripture?"

At which point, how much Word the person asking such a question has in them, from time in the Word, will then play a critical role in helping them to solve for such issues, 2 Tim. 3:16-17.

And I am referring to time in the Word, not to what far too often goes for that - an overreliance on "books about" this, that, the other for one's "understanding."

Labor is involved here - in the Word.

"We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;" 2 Cor. 4: 13.

 

[whitestone]

each man in his own order

the first shall be last, and the last shall be first


OT saints- first in the Bible, raised last
The little flock- second in the Bible, raised second
Body of Christ- last in the Bible, raised first

not that I disagree with you STP,,,in it's "exact order",,,do not take preference of what whitestone says,but as Heir would say "believe and follow Paul",,,so look at the order Paul gives in the scripture I began with. His order of events are by far more convincing than mine. 1Corinthians 15:23 KJV ,,,

I mean no offense in my comments to any of you but if Paul him self sets in order the events of the remainder of this day I think it wise to not deviate from its exact order in the manner of explanation of eschatology as set in order by Paul and others.

We might bring many scriptures forth of the same matter 1Thessaloinians 4:15-16 KJV ,,again with an order of events set forth by Paul as to the events as they will unfold. Never believe whitestone,never,never ever,until you are convinced he is quoting Paul.

And then per chance there will always exist this discussion,the 12 in or out?,,no not really,lol,(thats another thread),,,but the subject of the exact order of events ascribed by Paul in his many letters I would not deviate from in their order presented unless we might find ourselves in the end shuffling puzzle pieces back and forth trying to unravel the foggy grey areas among the Preterits,

STP consider the order of events set forth in scripture. Remember the things you posted about the weeks,there is a reason why the upside down pyramid has friction ascending,it is another in it's place which is removed,,,

 

[whitestone]

Consider your question is as much on you to attempt to solve for, as it is on anyone you ask it of...

And the way to attempt to is, yes, to ask such questions, but also, to then actually attempt to solve for them oneself - by asking oneself "is there any kind of precedent for this that I am asking about anywhere in Scripture?"

At which point, how much Word the person asking such a question has in them, from time in the Word, will then play a critical role in helping them to solve for such issues, 2 Tim. 3:16-17.

And I am referring to time in the Word, not to what far too often goes for that - an overreliance on "books about" this, that, the other for one's "understanding."

Labor is involved here - in the Word.

"We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;" 2 Cor. 4: 13.

ask jerryshu,,this same question I also ask him in days past,,,,compare your answers,,they are exactly the same,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

[Danoh]

ask jerryshu,,this same question I also ask him in days past,,,,compare your answers,,they are exactly the same,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Ha!

In the immortal words of the late Buddy Holly, "that'll be the day..." :chuckles:

 

[whitestone]

Ha!

In the immortal words of the late Buddy Holly, "that'll be the day..." :chuckles:

lol,okay then you win then,lol so then do you think that the body of Christ will be raptured beforehand or that they will bare the brunt of the tribulation?

 

[Danoh]

lol,okay then you win then,lol so then do you think that the body of Christ will be raptured beforehand or that they will bare the brunt of the tribulation?

I subscribe, more or less, to the Mid-Acts Hermeneutic and it is Pre-Trib Premillennial, so, yeah.

And, you'll find I am ever open to looking at any and all issues, as I love to learn, and from whomever has something I might better understand a thing through.