toldailytopic: The rapture. When will it happen and what will it be like?

[godrulz]

"this present evil world" - Apostle Paul

Good luck. Only the reign of the Lord Jesus Christ will substantially and permanently change things.
Our goal isn't to change the world, but to call a people out from among the world.

I already stated that peace will not come until the Prince of Peace comes. We are not creating utopia in our own strength. I am not post-mill (they tend to think things get cleaned up through the church and then Christ comes vs vice versa).

Jesus and us are Light (moral) in this dark world. We are to be salt and light. We are not to turn the world over to godless unbelievers, false religion, Antichrist, Satan. There is spiritual warfare as well as great witness when the church makes a difference instead of cloistering in monasteries once we are saved.

Your defective ecclesiology is also affecting your ideas of evangelism, mission, service, stewardship.

It is both/and, not either/or (we call people out knowing we are not of the world and are aliens, strangers with a citizenship in heaven, but it also says we are in the world). We don't have to fall into the trap of a useless social 'gospel' just because we preach the gospel, the power of God, and have an impact on individuals and society as we pray for His will to be done on earth as it is in heaven (but you make this a limited principle). The rule of God is being established in the hearts of men, but it also has an affect on whole communities, people groups, cities, etc. (using your philosophy, many people would not be saved and many communities would be overrun by evil instead of transformed by an incarnational approach to ministry, modeled by Jesus, Paul, etc.).

Your model also does not allow for vocational witness, medical missions, etc.? It reminds me of JWs who are useless when it comes to digging wells so people stay alive long enough to hear the gospel, useless for education/schools, so people can learn to read and be able to read the Bible, etc. They are good at going door to door to try to indoctrinate people and then get them busy with Kingdom Hall meetings. They withdraw from the world and others, a mistake the monastic movement made centuries ago (a guy sat on top of a pole for years to avoid being influenced by the world; this also forfeited him from being an influence on the world http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pole-sitting count me out).

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Not to derail the conversation, but STP and Tetelestai: Do either of you have a desire to positively change things on this planet? This is not meant to be a derogatory or pessimistic remark, by the way. I'm genuinely curious. If your outlook for the world is one of predetermined death and destruction, and you're just "waiting" it out (so to speak), do you ever find yourself wanting to help those in need? Those who require aid in this world?

I'm all for helping people, but I am not trying to change this world system.

 

[TeeJay]

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Knight,

The Rapture will occur when the "fulness of the Gentiles" has come. So, instead of praying for Jesus' soon return, we should pray that many Gentiles will come to Christ.

To believe in the Rapture, one must be a Dispensationalist. And, all Christians alive today are Dispensationalists. One cannot not be a Dispensatonalist. I know I will be challenged on this, but I stand ready to prove my point.

Now for an explanation of the Rapture:

THE RAPTURE

The Rapture Appears Only in Paul’s Writings.

Rapture teaching does not appear in the Old Testament. Further, the Rapture does not appear anywhere in the New Testament other than in Paul’s writings. Unbelievers trying to instill doubt concerning the authority of the Bible sometimes point out that Paul’s teachings, including Rapture, run contrary to much of the Biblical record. One expects such from the heathen. Sadly, however, some Christians attempting to discredit Rapture teaching actually try to demean the subject by pointing out that only Paul mentions it. On the 700 Club, Pat Robertson said he did not believe in any sort of Rapture and there was no Biblical support for the notion of a Rapture. Go figure!

Some, making a contrary error (though less egregious), suppose that Jesus taught about the Rapture. However since the departure of the Body of Christ is part of God’s “unprophesied” mystery for the Body, Christ would not have mentioned it. What then was Jesus referring to in the following passage?

“Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and the other left.” Mat. 24:40-41

Superficially it may seem that Christ is speaking of the Rapture, a great departure, or something similar, since it is supposed that those “taken” are blessed and those left are cursed. However, the context shows the opposite is the case. Those left are left due to mercy and those taken are taken in judgment.

For in the time of Noah:

“…the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.” Mat. 24:39

Those in unbelief are taken away in judgment in this context. Further, concerning the Kingdom Christ earlier taught:

“The Son of Man will send out His angels and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness and will cast them into the furnace of fire.” Mat. 13:41-42

The angels will take away evil men in judgment (see also Mat. 13:49-50), leaving righteous men remaining (Isa. 4:3; Zech. 12:14; 13:9), rooted in “good ground” (Mat. 13:23). So the angels do not rapture, but take away in judgment the man “in the field” and the woman “at the mill.” Luke gives additional proof of this by recording the disciples’ question, “Where, Lord?” Like students today, they wondered where those people would be “taken.” Jesus replied, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles [vultures] will be gathered together” (Luke 17:37). The Lord thus quoted Job about “the eagle” (Job 39:27) and “where the slain are, there it is” (Job 39:30). (This also shows that “the coming of the Son of Man” as “lightning comes from the east” (Mat. 24:27) refers to a coming in judgment (and not for rapture) because Matthew immediately adds Christ’s same quote about “the carcass” and “the eagles” (Mat. 24:28). So Jesus spoke of judgment and not of Rapture. After all,, the Rapture was also a mystery (1 Cor. 15:51) which God revealed only through the Apostle Paul for the Body of Christ.

The Rapture is Another Mystery

Yes, not only was the Body of Christ a mystery, but God’s plans for the Body were also a mystery, including the Rapture, which had never before been revealed:

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. 1 Cor. 15:51-52

God kept a secret of the Body and of the Rapture. Of those saved by the Gospel of the Uncircumcision (grace) “we shall not all sleep.” This means that some members of the Body of Christ will not die. “Sleep” is a metaphor for death (John 11:11-14). Paul commonly used this figure of speech (Acts 13:36; 1 Cor. 11:30; 1 Thes. 4:14; 5:10). The “last trumpet” here is not the last trump for Israel, which will still have seven more trumpet blasts to endure in the Great Tribulation (Rev. 8:6). This is the last trumpet for the Body of Christ.

Recall that the Great Tribulation is “the time of Jacob’s (Israel’s) trouble (Jer. 30:7), that is, Israel’s Tribulation. Thus the seven trumpet blasts of Revelation are part of the purification process for the nation of Israel (Isa. 4:3; Zech. 12:14; 13:9; Luke 21:20-24; Mat. 24:9) to prepare them to inherit their Kingdom (Mat. 25:34; Dan. 9:24).

The great mystery is that God broke down the wall of partition (symbolized by the partition in the Temple between the Court of the Gentiles and the inner courts) between Jew and Gentile, which was the law (Eph. 2:14-15), to create the Body of Christ. Hence, God did not intend to submit this new Body to His old plans for Israel. Those plans do not fit God’s new program—the Body under the Gospel of Uncircumcision (grace).

God saved the Gentiles in part “to provoke them [Israel] to jealousy” (Rom. 11:11). Therefore God gave the Body a heavenly calling (Eph. 1:3; 2:6; Phil 3:20) rather than a calling to an earthly kingdom (Mat. 6:10). The Last Days prophecy for the Body is not filled with trouble and terror as Israel’s is, but as Paul says, these things will comfort (1 Thes. 4:18) the Body. After God finishes His work with the Body He will return to His plans for Israel (Rom. 11:25). At that point the Body will have completed its ministry upon earth. Therefore God will Rapture His Church (the Body) just prior to rejoining the program for Israel where He left off, toward the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week.


We, the Body of Christ, Are Not Israel

Jesus’ original plan, which was prophesied throughout the whole Old Testament, was to give Israel a Kingdom with Jesus as King of kings and Lord of lords. Israel rejected their risen Christ. God’s plan for Israel’s kingdom was Plan A.

But, just as a good general will have a Plan B (and even a Plan C) should Plan A fail, God had a Plan B should Israel reject Jesus’ offer. “Because of unbelief” God cut off Israel. When He did this, He took Paul sent him directly to the Gentiles, bypassing Israel. He also gave Paul new marching orders—the Gospel of Uncircumcision or Gospel of Grace.

Had Israel not rejected Jesus, they would have gone through their Tribulation or the Time of Jacob’s trouble 2,000 years ago. Jesus would have then returned, established their kingdom, and judged nations, etc. Make sense?

The Departure “Comes First”

Paul wrote about the Rapture again in his second epistle to the Thessalonians and placed it prior to the Tribulation. The Greek noun, pronounced ap-os-tas-ee’-ah appears in that context. Understanding apostaseeah involves a related word, its cognate verb, pronounced aph-is’-tay-mee. In the New Testament, these two Greek words can translate into apostasy, as in forsake, fall away and departure. These related words both have two related meanings: departure, as in from a place, as in the angel departed; and apostasy, as in from a creed, as in they departed from Moses. Thus Paul could use apostaseeah, meaning departure (or Rapture) as a sign that will precede the Day of Christ [i.e., the Day of the Lord].

Therefore, we must consider the intended meaning by the context. For what sign will precede the Day of the Lord, departure from the faith (as in apostasy), or departure from earth (as in Rapture). Let’s look at the context:

Now brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him we ask you, not to be soon shaken… as though the Day of Christ had come. 2 Thes. 2:1-2

The context is “our gathering together to Him” at “the coming of our Lord.” The Rapture, that is, the supernatural departure of the Church (Body of Christ) from the earth is the context.

Paul went further to correct a rumor that they were living in the Day of the Lord. Paul wrote:

… that Day will not come unless the falling away [departure] comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition. 2 Thes. 2:3

Pray for Fullness, Not Apostasy

One final point is that Israel’s Day of the Lord, called the time of Jacob’s trouble, begins not after the falling away but after the fullness. For:

…hardening in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in [into the Body]. And so all Israel will be saved…. Rom. 11:25-26

Hence the Lord does not come for the Body after the forsaking but after the fullness. Thus to hasten the Lord’s coming, believers should pray for a full harvest, not a falling away.

When the truth is “rightly divided,” all pieces of the Scriptural puzzle fit without being forced or spiritualized. And best of all, theories of pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath, and partial Rapture, et.al. are easily deemed absurd.

As Paul admonished, “We should all study to show ourselves approved.”

Again, I submit that a Christian cannot no be a Dispensationalist. And if so, one cannot dismiss the Rapture as non-Scriptural. Paul is very clear that we are "saved from the wrath that is to come" which is the Tribulation of the time of Jacob's trouble.

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

 

[Zeke]

Not to derail the conversation, but STP and Tetelestai: Do either of you have a desire to positively change things on this planet? This is not meant to be a derogatory or pessimistic remark, by the way. I'm genuinely curious. If your outlook for the world is one of predetermined death and destruction, and you're just "waiting" it out (so to speak), do you ever find yourself wanting to help those in need? Those who require aid in this world?

History sides with the pesimistic view on man ever coming together to live in harmoney. What ever kingdom is in charge be it baylon, greece, persians, rome, they all held a superiority complex over those they rules over, the script is always the same, take Germany before world war two the mantra was they were the pure race and those Jews caused all our problems etc.. Japan held the same kinda of veiw, Britian, Americans over the natives americans the game of my race is better never ends etc...........................So utopia is a noble dream but then there is reality now isn't there?

Which is the reason some look for a cure outside of man, and his natural inability to overcome his own selfish leanings, and the spiritual forces that prey on that weakness.

 

[Silent Hunter]

I didn't see where anyone discusses Harold Camping's prediction of May 21, 2011 for the Rapture and October 21, 2011 for the end of Time.

What's he going to say when none of this happens (assuming he's still alive then).

 

[godrulz]

I didn't see where anyone discusses Harold Camping's prediction of May 21, 2011 for the Rapture and October 21, 2011 for the end of Time.

What's he going to say when none of this happens (assuming he's still alive then).

This guy has been wrong on other dates and goes against biblical warning when he plays the 'Dating Game'. He is wrong, but Scripture will be right (the Messianic prophecies of the First Coming were all fulfilled and give basis for the expected fulfillment of the promises of the Second Coming; just because some are dead wrong in unwarranted speculation does not negate God's ability to intervene when He wants to).

It is guys like you that are the reason for His delay (2 Peter 3:9).

cf. scoffers mocked Noah/Ark, but the Flood came as promised. One can stick head in sand and eat, drink, be merry, or one can serve their rightful King until He comes for His people).

 

[Granite]

:yawn:

Yeah, what I figured.

Edgar Whisenant.

 

[Silent Hunter]

This guy has been wrong on other dates and goes against biblical warning when he plays the 'Dating Game'. He is wrong, but Scripture will be right (the Messianic prophecies of the First Coming were all fulfilled and give basis for the expected fulfillment of the promises of the Second Coming; just because some are dead wrong in unwarranted speculation does not negate God's ability to intervene when He wants to).

It is guys like you that are the reason for His delay (2 Peter 3:9).

cf. scoffers mocked Noah/Ark, but the Flood came as promised. One can stick head in sand and eat, drink, be merry, or one can serve their rightful King until He comes for His people).

There's no need to attack me or quote from your precious object of worship, the bible, to attempt to prove something (whatever that might be).

By reading into the bible what isn't there (the rapture for instance) you make yourself the interpreter the same as Mr. Camping.

Btw, the whole earth Noah flood never happened. Why do I say this? No proof.

 

[Silent Hunter]

:yawn:

Yeah, what I figured.

Edgar Whisenant.

1988. That's when Harold Camping says the "Church Age" ended.

 

[Prisca]

Knight,

The Rapture will occur when the "fulness of the Gentiles" has come. So, instead of praying for Jesus' soon return, we should pray that many Gentiles will come to Christ.

To believe in the Rapture, one must be a Dispensationalist. And, all Christians alive today are Dispensationalists. One cannot not be a Dispensatonalist. I know I will be challenged on this, but I stand ready to prove my point.

Now for an explanation of the Rapture:

THE RAPTURE

The Rapture Appears Only in Paul’s Writings.

Rapture teaching does not appear in the Old Testament. Further, the Rapture does not appear anywhere in the New Testament other than in Paul’s writings. Unbelievers trying to instill doubt concerning the authority of the Bible sometimes point out that Paul’s teachings, including Rapture, run contrary to much of the Biblical record. One expects such from the heathen. Sadly, however, some Christians attempting to discredit Rapture teaching actually try to demean the subject by pointing out that only Paul mentions it. On the 700 Club, Pat Robertson said he did not believe in any sort of Rapture and there was no Biblical support for the notion of a Rapture. Go figure!

Some, making a contrary error (though less egregious), suppose that Jesus taught about the Rapture. However since the departure of the Body of Christ is part of God’s “unprophesied” mystery for the Body, Christ would not have mentioned it. What then was Jesus referring to in the following passage?

“Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and the other left.” Mat. 24:40-41

Superficially it may seem that Christ is speaking of the Rapture, a great departure, or something similar, since it is supposed that those “taken” are blessed and those left are cursed. However, the context shows the opposite is the case. Those left are left due to mercy and those taken are taken in judgment.

For in the time of Noah:

“…the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.” Mat. 24:39

Those in unbelief are taken away in judgment in this context. Further, concerning the Kingdom Christ earlier taught:

“The Son of Man will send out His angels and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness and will cast them into the furnace of fire.” Mat. 13:41-42

The angels will take away evil men in judgment (see also Mat. 13:49-50), leaving righteous men remaining (Isa. 4:3; Zech. 12:14; 13:9), rooted in “good ground” (Mat. 13:23). So the angels do not rapture, but take away in judgment the man “in the field” and the woman “at the mill.” Luke gives additional proof of this by recording the disciples’ question, “Where, Lord?” Like students today, they wondered where those people would be “taken.” Jesus replied, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles [vultures] will be gathered together” (Luke 17:37). The Lord thus quoted Job about “the eagle” (Job 39:27) and “where the slain are, there it is” (Job 39:30). (This also shows that “the coming of the Son of Man” as “lightning comes from the east” (Mat. 24:27) refers to a coming in judgment (and not for rapture) because Matthew immediately adds Christ’s same quote about “the carcass” and “the eagles” (Mat. 24:28). So Jesus spoke of judgment and not of Rapture. After all,, the Rapture was also a mystery (1 Cor. 15:51) which God revealed only through the Apostle Paul for the Body of Christ.

The Rapture is Another Mystery

Yes, not only was the Body of Christ a mystery, but God’s plans for the Body were also a mystery, including the Rapture, which had never before been revealed:

Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. 1 Cor. 15:51-52

God kept a secret of the Body and of the Rapture. Of those saved by the Gospel of the Uncircumcision (grace) “we shall not all sleep.” This means that some members of the Body of Christ will not die. “Sleep” is a metaphor for death (John 11:11-14). Paul commonly used this figure of speech (Acts 13:36; 1 Cor. 11:30; 1 Thes. 4:14; 5:10). The “last trumpet” here is not the last trump for Israel, which will still have seven more trumpet blasts to endure in the Great Tribulation (Rev. 8:6). This is the last trumpet for the Body of Christ.

Recall that the Great Tribulation is “the time of Jacob’s (Israel’s) trouble (Jer. 30:7), that is, Israel’s Tribulation. Thus the seven trumpet blasts of Revelation are part of the purification process for the nation of Israel (Isa. 4:3; Zech. 12:14; 13:9; Luke 21:20-24; Mat. 24:9) to prepare them to inherit their Kingdom (Mat. 25:34; Dan. 9:24).

The great mystery is that God broke down the wall of partition (symbolized by the partition in the Temple between the Court of the Gentiles and the inner courts) between Jew and Gentile, which was the law (Eph. 2:14-15), to create the Body of Christ. Hence, God did not intend to submit this new Body to His old plans for Israel. Those plans do not fit God’s new program—the Body under the Gospel of Uncircumcision (grace).

God saved the Gentiles in part “to provoke them [Israel] to jealousy” (Rom. 11:11). Therefore God gave the Body a heavenly calling (Eph. 1:3; 2:6; Phil 3:20) rather than a calling to an earthly kingdom (Mat. 6:10). The Last Days prophecy for the Body is not filled with trouble and terror as Israel’s is, but as Paul says, these things will comfort (1 Thes. 4:18) the Body. After God finishes His work with the Body He will return to His plans for Israel (Rom. 11:25). At that point the Body will have completed its ministry upon earth. Therefore God will Rapture His Church (the Body) just prior to rejoining the program for Israel where He left off, toward the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week.


We, the Body of Christ, Are Not Israel

Jesus’ original plan, which was prophesied throughout the whole Old Testament, was to give Israel a Kingdom with Jesus as King of kings and Lord of lords. Israel rejected their risen Christ. God’s plan for Israel’s kingdom was Plan A.

But, just as a good general will have a Plan B (and even a Plan C) should Plan A fail, God had a Plan B should Israel reject Jesus’ offer. “Because of unbelief” God cut off Israel. When He did this, He took Paul sent him directly to the Gentiles, bypassing Israel. He also gave Paul new marching orders—the Gospel of Uncircumcision or Gospel of Grace.

Had Israel not rejected Jesus, they would have gone through their Tribulation or the Time of Jacob’s trouble 2,000 years ago. Jesus would have then returned, established their kingdom, and judged nations, etc. Make sense?

The Departure “Comes First”

Paul wrote about the Rapture again in his second epistle to the Thessalonians and placed it prior to the Tribulation. The Greek noun, pronounced ap-os-tas-ee’-ah appears in that context. Understanding apostaseeah involves a related word, its cognate verb, pronounced aph-is’-tay-mee. In the New Testament, these two Greek words can translate into apostasy, as in forsake, fall away and departure. These related words both have two related meanings: departure, as in from a place, as in the angel departed; and apostasy, as in from a creed, as in they departed from Moses. Thus Paul could use apostaseeah, meaning departure (or Rapture) as a sign that will precede the Day of Christ [i.e., the Day of the Lord].

Therefore, we must consider the intended meaning by the context. For what sign will precede the Day of the Lord, departure from the faith (as in apostasy), or departure from earth (as in Rapture). Let’s look at the context:

Now brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him we ask you, not to be soon shaken… as though the Day of Christ had come. 2 Thes. 2:1-2

The context is “our gathering together to Him” at “the coming of our Lord.” The Rapture, that is, the supernatural departure of the Church (Body of Christ) from the earth is the context.

Paul went further to correct a rumor that they were living in the Day of the Lord. Paul wrote:

… that Day will not come unless the falling away [departure] comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition. 2 Thes. 2:3

Pray for Fullness, Not Apostasy

One final point is that Israel’s Day of the Lord, called the time of Jacob’s trouble, begins not after the falling away but after the fullness. For:

…hardening in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in [into the Body]. And so all Israel will be saved…. Rom. 11:25-26

Hence the Lord does not come for the Body after the forsaking but after the fullness. Thus to hasten the Lord’s coming, believers should pray for a full harvest, not a falling away.

When the truth is “rightly divided,” all pieces of the Scriptural puzzle fit without being forced or spiritualized. And best of all, theories of pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath, and partial Rapture, et.al. are easily deemed absurd.

As Paul admonished, “We should all study to show ourselves approved.”

Again, I submit that a Christian cannot no be a Dispensationalist. And if so, one cannot dismiss the Rapture as non-Scriptural. Paul is very clear that we are "saved from the wrath that is to come" which is the Tribulation of the time of Jacob's trouble.

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

That was great and worth repeating. Thanks, Tom!

 

[tetelestai]

Some, making a contrary error (though less egregious), suppose that Jesus taught about the Rapture. However since the departure of the Body of Christ is part of God’s “unprophesied” mystery for the Body, Christ would not have mentioned it. What then was Jesus referring to in the following passage?

“Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and the other left.” Mat. 24:40-41

Superficially it may seem that Christ is speaking of the Rapture, a great departure, or something similar, since it is supposed that those “taken” are blessed and those left are cursed. However, the context shows the opposite is the case. Those left are left due to mercy and those taken are taken in judgment.

You're way off Tom.

Back up to verse 31, and it is clear that Jesus will come for His elect:

(Matt 24:31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

However, you are correct, in that Jesus never talked about a rapture. There is a good reason He never did so; it's because there is NO Rapture.

 

[tetelestai]

Not to derail the conversation, but STP and Tetelestai: Do either of you have a desire to positively change things on this planet?

The only way this planet is ever changed “positively” is when unbelievers become believers.

Once a human being becomes a believer, the believer can produce fruit of the Holy Spirit, which can have a positive impact on this planet.

 

[godrulz]

There's no need to attack me or quote from your precious object of worship, the bible, to attempt to prove something (whatever that might be).

By reading into the bible what isn't there (the rapture for instance) you make yourself the interpreter the same as Mr. Camping.

Btw, the whole earth Noah flood never happened. Why do I say this? No proof.

It is not attacking to warn you of the wrath to come (speak truth in love). We do not worship the Bible, but the author of it, God Almighty.

I Thess. 4; I Cor. 15; Jn. 14, etc. does show a coming for the Church. Other verses show a coming with the Church (invisible; visible).

Why do atheists who reject Scripture always think they are experts on it? There is a big difference between interpreting prophetic/eschatological passages about the coming of Christ and setting specific dates (a practice forbidden by Scripture). Crazy speculation is far different than interpreting a historical document. If a nut sees hidden messages in the newspaper, does that mean a sane reader is worshipping the paper or wrong to elicit its intended meaning.

No offense, but atheists are not the brightest when it comes to spiritual, biblical matters.

The Bible is historical narrative. God inspired accurate preservation of reality. Catastrophism/global Noahic Flood is actually consistent with the geological evidence. Your world view does not allow it, but that does not mean the evidence is lacking (you assume uniformitarianism, despite it being illogical and lacking evidence).

 

[TeeJay]

You're way off Tom.

Back up to verse 31, and it is clear that Jesus will come for His elect:

(Matt 24:31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

No! I'm not way off. Matthew 24:31 is AFTER the Tribulation. Even John the Baptist warned the wicked Pharisees: "Who warned you to flee from the WRATH THAT IS TO COME [the Tribulation]." But Paul comforts us with, "We are saved from the wrath that is to come." How will we be saved? The Rapture. The Body will be taken out.

However, you are correct, in that Jesus never talked about a rapture. There is a good reason He never did so; it's because there is NO Rapture.

There are many things that Jesus never talked about to Israel. The Gospel of Grace is one good example. Jesus will certainly not Rapture Israel.

To believe in the Rapture, one must be a Dispensationalist. I assume you are not one?

Questions:

Do you eat meat?
Do you worry if the meat has been sacrificed to idols?
Do you observe the Sabbath laws?
Do you observe Israel's feasts?
Have you been circumcised as a religious rite?

God bless, Tom from Mabank, TX

 

[Silent Hunter]

It is not attacking to warn you of the wrath to come (speak truth in love). We do not worship the Bible, but the author of it, God Almighty.

Not worried... and sure you do, you're just not willing to admit it.

I Thess. 4; I Cor. 15; Jn. 14, etc. does show a coming for the Church. Other verses show a coming with the Church (invisible; visible).

Every religion has its myths...

Why do atheists who reject Scripture always think they are experts on it?

That's easy... most athiests know more about the bible than every Christian.

There is a big difference between interpreting prophetic/eschatological passages about the coming of Christ and setting specific dates (a practice forbidden by Scripture). Crazy speculation is far different than interpreting a historical document. If a nut sees hidden messages in the newspaper, does that mean a sane reader is worshipping the paper or wrong to elicit its intended meaning.

"Nuts" see hidden messages in the bible, think the bible foretells the future in prophecy, and believe a man is/was god. Right, no lunacy evident at all.

No offense, but atheists are not the brightest when it comes to spiritual, biblical matters.

LOL, neither are theists... least of all Christians.

The Bible is historical narrative. God inspired accurate preservation of reality.

This is fodder for another thread but only Christians seem sure this is provable.

Catastrophism/global Noahic Flood is actually consistent with the geological evidence.

LOL. Horsehocky.

Your world view does not allow it, but that does not mean the evidence is lacking (you assume uniformitarianism, despite it being illogical and lacking evidence).

Not only does my "world view" not allow for a Noah type flood but neither does the evidence. I don't assume anything.

Back to the topic. For the sake of argument, could Camping be right as he contends the bible is being revealed bit-by-bit by god and must be studied v-e-r-y carefully (I wish I could write it the way he says it).

 

[Granite]

What's the difference between hoping for the rapture and hoping to die?

Anybody.

 

[Nick M]

Do any of you monarchists in particular expect the rapture departure soon, or in your lifetime?

There is no way to tell one way or not. There is no prophecy to watch.

I don't know where the word meaning joy was inserted in place where Paul said departure of the church, but it will be a joyous event.

 

[Silent Hunter]

What's the difference between hoping for the rapture and hoping to die?

Anybody.

Well, if one is raptured they skip dying. Right?

Christians fear death most of any of the religion cults.

 

[Nick M]

Not too many Christians agree with me. Especially the owner of this site and those of the Denver Bible Church that are big on fighting abortion.

If abortion ceased today, and there never was another abortion ever, this would still be Satan’s planet, there would still be murder, war, rape, theft, etc. Christians are fooled into thinking that they can make Satan’s planet a better place.

Things I learned on TOL, the other recent topic of the day. Morons are plentiful on TOL. If the murder rate went from millions to zero, the world wouldn't be better. Wow. Just wow.

 

[Granite]

Well, if one is raptured they skip dying. Right?

Christians fear death most of any of the religion cults.

But what's the difference? You're no longer on earth and you're in heaven. The expectation and hope for the rapture strikes me as a death wish, the longer I think about it.