toldailytopic: Jehovah's Witnesses. What did they get wrong? What did they get right?

[ResLight]

Occult

Occult

I happen to be a Freemason,since you're not you might want to start questioning your "research" there is a LOT of misinformation about Masonry out there. firstly it's a fraternity for anyone who believes in God,it teaches morality,faith hope and charity through allegory and symbolism. we don't worship,we don't discuss religion,we help our fellow man. and that word "occult" you throw around simply means hidden or secret....it has no satanic meaning.

Yes, this is what I have pointed out several times regarding the word "occult". The Bible itself speaks of mysteries not made known to the world in general, but made available to the initiated (through that revealed by means of the Holy Spirit), and in the broad sense of the world occult, even the Bible could be said to be occult.

Nevertheless, in general usage, the word "occult" has almost exclusively come to be associated with demonic occultism, such as: witchcraft, spiritism, fortune tellers, etc.

Many have claimed that Charles Taze Russell practiced occultism of these latter forms. In reality, Russell did not believe in, and actively preached against such forms of occultism.

Russell and Spiritism

Regarding Russell and the Masons, he did not approve of any such organization as the Masons, and thought the child of God should not be involved in such, as he believed time could be better spent in other activities. And yet, on the other hand, he did not condemn any Christian who wished to be a member of the Freemasons organization. Most Christians who became associated with the Bible Students movement in his day, however, if they had been a member of the Freemasons, withdrew from activity with that organization. I do not know of any of the Bible Students today who have membership in the Freemasons' organization.

 

[ResLight]

Sectarianism

Sectarianism

The Christians who consider me lost are considered to be Christians in my book. Cultists (JWs/Mormons) may think they are Christians, but they are not. My fellow Christians are wrong about me and others, but our mutual assessment of false groups based on the Bible is defensible.

I do not say those who hold to the essentials of the faith are not true Christians, but we can and must say that heretics are not Christians. Let's compare apples with apples (it can be demonstrated that some groups are too far away from orthodoxy to be considered denominations...these groups also generally say that true Christians are not so and must identify with their pet group, so it goes both ways....inclusivists, etc. are simply wrong to think that opposite views on key subjects are equally valid before a God of Truth).

However, what is one to consider to be essentials of faith? What man considers and declares to be "orthodoxy" may not be what God Himself considers to be "orthodox."

The Bible does not say anywhere that for one be saved, one has to add to the Scriptures that Jesus is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, or that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is more than one person. Paul gave the basic essentials for salvation in this age when he said: "if you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Hebrews 6:1,2 presents the foundation of "the faith once delivered to the saints" (Jude 1:3): "repentance from dead works, of faith toward God, of the teaching of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal [age-during, Young's Literal]* judgment."
===========
The word translated "eternal" here is Aionios, a form of which is also used in verse 5, where it refers to the "age to come", the day of judgment when Yahweh comes to judge the world by means of the person whom he has appointed. -- Psalm 96:13; 98:9; Acts 17:31; Revelation 22:12.

The point is that the scriptures no where tell us that one has to believe in the trinity dogma in order to be saved. This is what man's own declaration of orthodoxy has added to the Bible. Such may be imagined, assumed and read into several scriptures (which is often done). Anytime we base salvation and who we consider to be Christian or not a Christian on what "we" believe a scripture means, we are producing sectarianism. It is easy to consider what one might imagine and assume to be in the scripture to be the only conclusion that anyone could possibly reach, and proclaim that our conclusion is that of the holy spirit, and since you do not agree with "us", you must not have the holy spirit. We may be right in the conclusion itself, but at the same time, we could be wrong in using that conclusion as a basis for judging others. This can be done whether one believes in the trinity or whether one does not believe in the trinity. It is our carnal tendency that comes into play to produce such sectarianism, as Paul wrote. (2 Corinthians 3:3) It is easy to do, for I know I have been guilty of the same thing, but have tried to be more cautious of this in the past twenty years or so.

The word heresy in the Bible has to do with sectarianism. -- Acts 24:14; 1 Corinthians 11:19; Galatians 5:20; 2 Peter 2:1.

See what I have written on:

Sectarianism

Christian love,
Ronald

 

[Nick M]

.

They are fatally wrong on doctrine (deny Trinity, Deity, physical resurrection of Christ, sectarian New World Translation, etc.)

As opposed to you who deny that Christ died once for all sin, including future heinous sins.

 

[fzappa13]

Well, now that's a novel idea ... create a web site and then reference it as substantiation of your proclamations :nono:

reslight indeed ....

 

[godrulz]

As opposed to you who deny that Christ died once for all sin, including future heinous sins.

Unlike you, I accept the truths of Hebrews for the Church. Your MAD view denies the finished work of Christ for a post-cross group. I fully affirm that Christ died once for all for all sin, but this does not make universalism nor OSAS a fact. There is no other provision for sin but the historical cross and risen Christ. IT IS FINISHED. The problem is your lack of theological sophistication, not my view.

 

[horiturk]

As you are early on in your dalliance with the lodge perhaps it is you who should do a little more research before casting your lot ...

early on with my dalliance? many men in my family have been Masons as well,i think you need to quit assuming you actually know what you're talking about.stop reading books by people who have no idea what Masonry is.

 

[fzappa13]

early on with my dalliance? many men in my family have been Masons as well,i think you need to quit assuming you actually know what you're talking about.stop reading books by people who have no idea what Masonry is.

Actually I googled you and found you on the cusp of attaining the lofty rank of Entered Apprentice on another web site. That is the second degree of the portico known as the Blue Lodge and thus you are a novice by any accounting. As it concerns my study of Freemasonry I can assure you that I had amassed a library on the subject, pro and con, well before you were considering puberty and the thought of you lecturing me on the subject is more than just a little comical.

I have no interest in jousting with you. I am suggesting that there is much more to this than you imagine and if you have any Christian aspirations whatsoever you would be well advised to investigate the degrees and the oaths sworn therein before proceeding further.

It was not without purpose and reason that Jesus directed those that would be His to swear no oath.

 

[andyc]

I can say that Russell certainly did not get up out of his grave so as to have anything to do with the construction of a Masonic Center across the street from where he is buried. No, that Masonic Center was built many years after Russell was buried in the Rosemont Cemetery.

Having studied Russell's works for almost 50 years, I can definitely say that Russell did not approve of, and certainly was not a member of, the Freemasons' organization.
Charles Taze Russell and the Freemasons

Russell, however, was a non-sectarian who did not believe in, and actually preached against, such a sectarian authoritarian organization was the Jehovah's Witnesses. Additionally, the Jehovah's Witnesses preach an alleged "gospel/good news" that is almost the opposite of the glad tidings of great joy for all the people that Russell believed and preached. He certainly was not the founder of that which he did not believe and which he preached against.

It was not until after Russell was dead that Rutherford created the Jehovah's Witnesses organization and the bad tidings of great woe of eternal destruction for most of the people (including their children) who reject, or fail to put their trust in, that organization.

Russell Regarding Sectarianism

Charles Taze Russell: Founder of JWs?

Hey Ronald we meet again in a different forum.

 

[horiturk]

Actually I googled you and found you on the cusp of attaining the lofty rank of Entered Apprentice on another web site. That is the second degree of the portico known as the Blue Lodge and thus you are a novice by any accounting. As it concerns my study of Freemasonry I can assure you that I had amassed a library on the subject, pro and con, well before you were considering puberty and the thought of you lecturing me on the subject is more than just a little comical.

I have no interest in jousting with you. I am suggesting that there is much more to this than you imagine and if you have any Christian aspirations whatsoever you would be well advised to investigate the degrees and the oaths sworn therein before proceeding further.

It was not without purpose and reason that Jesus directed those that would be His to swear no oath.[/Q


yes,i'm about to take my first degree but i've grown up in and around masonry so i'm quite a bit more familiar with it than you are i'm sure.i'm fully aware of the oaths,rituals and degrees....in depth. so,you've read some books about it.....such a large accomplishment i might say and pointing out that you're much older,well that makes all the difference doesn't it? have you ever actually BEEN a mason? were you in demolays as a youngster?are any of your close friends or relatives masons? obviously you know it ALL since you're unwilling to "joust" over it. stick to reading your texe marrs and jack chick tracts and talking in the echo chamber you call home.you should find out more about a person before simply dismissing them as a novice and therefore uneducated,assumption is the forerunner of failure. but i'm sure you know plenty about that since you're on an internet forum slandering freemasonry like some conspiracy theorist.

 

[csuguy]

yes,i'm about to take my first degree but i've grown up in and around masonry so i'm quite a bit more familiar with it than you are i'm sure.i'm fully aware of the oaths,rituals and degrees....in depth. so,you've read some books about it.....such a large accomplishment i might say and pointing out that you're much older,well that makes all the difference doesn't it? have you ever actually BEEN a mason? were you in demolays as a youngster?are any of your close friends or relatives masons? obviously you know it ALL since you're unwilling to "joust" over it. stick to reading your texe marrs and jack chick tracts and talking in the echo chamber you call home.you should find out more about a person before simply dismissing them as a novice and therefore uneducated,assumption is the forerunner of failure. but i'm sure you know plenty about that since you're on an internet forum slandering freemasonry like some conspiracy theorist.

My Great Grandfather King was a Mason, rather high one too as I understand it. He tried to recruit my father into it - brought him to one of their events and such (which apparently your not suppose to do, but he could do it) but my dad ended up rejecting the masonry.

 

[horiturk]

masons do not recruit

 

[The Horn]

The Jehovah's Witnesses are as wrong as all Christian denominations.
All acccept the preposterous premise that God somehow chose a young girl in ancient Palestine 2,000 years ago out of the blue to impregnate with his son so he could be brutally executed 33 years later in order to redeem mankind(at least those who accept the premise) from their supposed sins.
And that all followers of other religions,or atheists and agnostics, are doomed to etera hellfire,even if good people, and that some one who has been a horrible,evil person will be granted eternal bliss if he or she
repents and accepts Jesus as savior.
What about the countless people who lived before Christ? Or those who belong to primitive tribes living in remote areas and never get to hear of Christ and his supposed salvation?
Are they doomed to eternal hellfire? Does this make any sense?
No offense meant to believing Christians, but this makes absolutely no sense to me. But if you want to believe this, that's your right and I don't want to stop you from it.
And the Jehovah's Witnesses tend to be public nuissances,going around everywhere and knocking on their doors.

 

[agnostic_gnostic]

WRONG;
Their depiction of heaven. It seems incredibly boring and cliche. I prefer to think of heaven as some kind of omega point * or at least something more profound than a bunch of sheep sleeping next to lions.
RIGHT.
No hell. Hell is an insult to God. It means that he/she is not omnipotent or not moral.
*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_Point
"I closed my eyes, then opened them. It was then that I saw the Aleph. 'I come now to the ineffable climax of my story; and this is where my despair as a writer begins. All language is an alphabet of symbols, whose use presupposes an experience which is shared by both parties; but how can I convey to others the infinite Aleph of which my timid memory has hardly any recollection? The mystics, in cases like this, abound in symbols; to indicate a divinity, a Persian speaks of a bird which, in some way, is all birds; Alanus de Insulis, of a sphere whose centre is everywhere and the circumference nowhere; Ezekiel, of an angel with four faces facing simultaneously North, South, East and West. (I have a reason for recalling these inconceivable analogies, as they have something in common with the Aleph.) Perhaps the gods would allow me to use an image of this kind; but then this story would be tainted with literature and falseness. In any case, the central problem is insoluble; it is impossible to enumerate, even partially, an infinite number of things. In that gigantic instant, I saw millions of actions, both delectable and atrocious; but none of them astonished so much as the fact that they all occupied the same point, without being either superimposed or transparent. What my eyes saw was simultaneous: my transcription of it will be successive, because language has to be. I want, however, to give some account of it. 'At the bottom of the step, to the right, I saw a little mottled sphere almost intolerably bright. At first I thought it was revolving 285 round itself; afterwards I realized that this movement was an illusion due to the vertiginous spectacle it enclosed. The diameter of the Aleph must have been about two or three inches, but the whole of cosmic space was inside it, unreduced. Everything (the glass in the mirror, for example) was a multiplicity of things, because I could see it clearly from every point in the Universe. I saw the populous sea; I saw the dawn and the evening; I saw the multitudes swarming in America; I saw a silver spider-web in the centre of a black pyramid; I saw a broken labyrinth (it was London); I saw interminable eyes gazing one upon the other inside me as palpable as if seen in a mirror; I saw all the mirrors on the planet, and not one reflected my image; I saw in a backyard in the Rue Soler the same paving-stones that I had seen thirty years ago in a house at Fray Bentos ; I saw clusters of grapes, snow, tobacco, veins of metal, steam; I saw convex deserts under the Equator and each of their grains of sand; I saw at Inverness a woman whom I shall not forget; I saw her dishevelled hair and haughty carriage; I saw a cancer of the breast; I saw a ring of dried earth on a pavement where there had been a tree; I saw in a country house at Adrogue a copy of the first English translation of Pliny by Philemon Holland; I saw every letter on every page at the same time (as a child I had always wondered why when a book was closed, the letters did not get mixed up and lost during the night); I saw the night and day together; I saw a sunset at Queretaro which seemed to reflect the colour of a Bengal light; I saw my bedroom with no one in it; I saw in a room at Alkmaar a terrestrial globe between two mirrors which multiplied it to Infinity; I saw horses with shaggy manes on a beach by the Caspian Sea; I saw the delicate bone-structure of a hand; I saw the survivors of a battle sending off post-cards; I saw in a shop-window at Mirzapur a pack of Spanish playing-cards; 1 saw the sloping shadows of ferns on the floor of a greenhouse; I saw tigers, pistons, bisons, heaving seas and ....."
FROM
http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...+downstairs+quickly"&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Aleph_(short_story)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indra's_net

 

[Ktoyou]

Wrong? They knock on my door at 9am and think I'm going to let some strange man into my house. Uh, no.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Just grab his of her hand, put on a huge smile, say you a Catholic nun, take then down to the knee and say, "Hail Mary". Don't let them get away! Soon, it is usually some old women, will try to help the escape, but tell her to her face to knell down and pray for forgiveness. When they do manage to explicate, they will make sure all know you are a crazy nun and, being their nature is to fear fearing nuns more than thugs, they will never bother you again.

What's wrong with them, they deny Christ! Anything you do to awaken them from their soul slumber and get them thinking again is a good act. No, you cannot easily save them, but you may well shock them into seeing their little schtick does not always work.

 

[agnostic_gnostic]

"My Great Grandfather King was a Mason, rather high one too as I understand it. He tried to recruit my father into it - brought him to one of their events and such (which apparently your not suppose to do, but he could do it) but my dad ended up rejecting the masonry."
csuguy

Masons? Here is the REAL conspiracy!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYCk0g2YXZw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MAtltZAlN4&feature=related
It starts innocent enough but then!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRUMBMm-RL4&feature=related
That's right Lucy!! Hang up on the evil doer!
http://www.northjerseymusic.com/bands.php?bandid=136
There are many Fred heads out there . Do not let them convince you to start down that path.* Do not Mertz till it hurts!"
* You do not want to end up like this poor soul. He started innocently enough reading Mertz pamphlets, only occasionally listening to Fred's music and discussing Fred's philosophy in an objective unbiased manner. However, now the doctors say he will never be released. Please donate generously to the Fred Head rehabilitation center.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lDVhwI_qKA
WHY WON"T ANYONE LISTEN TO ME? THIS IS A REAL THREAT!!!!
PS; The Masons are also a threat. Here they are on maneuvers to practice methods of world conquest!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7adp8QXxNVU

 

[agnostic_gnostic]

Two Jehovah Witness's came to my door and I invited them in. After 45 minutes of my questions ( what about this contradiction in the Bible?) they politely asked to leave. I remember that as they left I said," Ah , come on, just one more question." They told me to contact their minister because they were not capable of answering my questions. I actually liked them. They believed in a cause and were willing to sacrifice their comfort and time for it.
Another thing I like about JWs ? They stood up to the Nazis. Not like most "Christians."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses_in_Nazi_Germany

 

[godrulz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXh7JR9oKVE

Despite this anthem being supremely biblical, a JW would get disfellowshipped for believing it. They are also anti-Christmas and legalistic, so do not understand exalting God in the marketplace. Their Kingdom Hall meetings and conventions and funerals are incredibly dry, depressing, boring, dead. They know nothing of the power and presence of God and actually assume a supernatural sense must be a demon (they are rationalists).

It is sad that many in the audience were emotionally moved, but still did not move on to repentance and faith in Christ. No doubt some of the singers knew the Messiah personally. Love, joy, peace, power (Christianity) vs rules, regulations, rituals, treadmill, blind allegiance to a false prophet, wasted hours and lives selling falsehood, etc.

Let us defend and proclaim the faith to see those in the kingdom of the cults come to the true Christ (Jude 3).

 

[aSeattleConserv]

I happen to be a Freemason,since you're not you might want to start questioning your "research" there is a LOT of misinformation about Masonry out there. firstly it's a fraternity for anyone who believes in God,it teaches morality,faith hope and charity through allegory and symbolism. we don't worship,we don't discuss religion,we help our fellow man. and that word "occult" you throw around simply means hidden or secret....it has no satanic meaning.

I have to side with you on this one horiturk. I've known some pretty decent people that were Freemasons, and the laws of God seem to play a pretty important role in their organization.
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/freemasonry.html

 

[aSeattleConserv]

Two Jehovah Witness's came to my door and I invited them in.

In defense of Jehovah Witness's, not too many people would invite complete strangers into their house (and let them stay for 45 minutes).

Come to think of it, you don't hear too many criminal cases involving JW's; however....
http://www.newschannel5.com/Global/story.asp?S=6499357

Another thing I like about JWs ? They stood up to the Nazis. Not like most "Christians."

When you said "stood up", I was under the impression that they actually fought the Nazis (they "stood up" by refusing to serve in the military, and hence were shipped off to German concentration camps).

It also appears that the JW's didn't/don't like to fight for freedom either:

"During the World Wars, Jehovah's Witnesses were also targeted in the United States, Canada and many other countries for their refusal to serve in the military or help with war efforts."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses

 

[godrulz]

Many Christians also stood against Hitler, but some nominal Lutherans, Catholics, etc. were passive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietrich_Bonhoeffer (martyr)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corrie_ten_Boom (hero)