toldailytopic: Government run schools. What (if anything) would you do to change them

[nicholsmom]

One of the greatest problems facing many public schools is parental apathy. I have no idea how to encourage to get involved with their kids lives. The best teacher in the world cannot teach a kid who doesn't want to learn and if the parents don't value education, the kids wont either. This is one of the two major reasons private schools are perceived as being better than public schools. After all, if you are paying for school odds are good you are going to make sure your kid is working hard.

I agree, but how can we change the school system to make this happen? Penalize the parents for their kid's failing grades? Detention for parents :think: I like it.

Public schools are also forced to provide medical services for students that need them. This is wrong. Schools are to educate children, they are not in the business of providing medical services.

What? Like the school nurse putting a bandaid on an owie? I think that sort of thing is for liability reasons - the kid gets hurt on their property on their watch, they'd better handle it. That's sop for any business.

If your student needs special medical services then the parents should be responsible for providing those services, not the school district.

I agree, what medical services are you talking about? I've never heard of such a thing being provided by the school.

Also, children who cannot be educated in a typical classroom should not be there. Harsh as it sounds, it does nobody any good to force a student into an environment they are equipped to deal with.

And they aren't. The school must, however do all that it can to give every child an equal education, no matter what that means. It might mean that the child needs to have a paraprofessional in the classroom, or a one-on-one aid to make sure that he can succeed in that classroom. The teacher might have to alter the lessons for the child or the child might have to have some classes with a special education teacher, but none of that means that the child cannot succeed in that classroom. It only means that he needs some supports to succeed in that classroom. If a child cannot make progress in the classroom, in spite of proper supports, then, and only then, is the school to place the child in a more restrictive environment.

Let me explain to you why this is absolutely necessary: Public school is for the public. That means everyone is included. It is absurd that title 7 even had to be written to clarify what that means. It is the main problem with compulsory education - it requires the state to provide that education equally to all children regardless of the financial ability of the state to pay, regardless of the cost of providing the supports needed to equally educate the disabled.

This is the second reason that private schools are perceived as being better than public schools, private schools do not have to accept every student regardless of abilities and health needs - they can be selective.

Yep.

I would change the lottery so that it provided money for school infrastructure. School building should be safe for students and fully equipped to educate those students.

I would do away with the lottery & all gambling since it has been shown to be a family killer. Parents care too much about the lottery and not enough about their kids' education.

As for buildings - you would think that ours had gold-plated lockers based on the tax rate (ours is itemized so I know how much is going to the school that my kids don't attend).

I would like to see more accountability for teachers.

How? I think that the parents ought to be able to vote out a teacher.

CSAP is a waste of time and money as it is currently implemented. Teachers do need a way to evaluate their students to make sure they are learning what they need to learn but the focus that is put on CSAP does more harm than good.

Who gets to decide what the students "need to learn?" Shouldn't the parents have a say?

I would add more teachers and segregate classes more so that slow and advanced learners get the help they need to either succeed or excel, respectively.

One of our best government schools does just that. There are at least 3 levels per class, plus special education pull-out class rooms.

I would change the start times at our schools to better fit both the parents work schedules

I couldn't disagree more on this one. If you want parents to care more about their kids' education, we'll have to quit catering to the parents' ability to avoid altering their lives to fit that education.

and the studies that show kids learn and retain more when they start later. (Classes in Jefco at my daughters middle school start at 7:25. Just stupid!)

Ours start at 8:30.

I would like to see stricter discipline return to the schools.

What do you mean? My sister has no trouble keeping discipline in her classroom, and she's a tiny woman. Discipline was not taught her in her education classes in college, but she knows what works and what doesn't. If parents could fire a teacher by a super majority vote, we wouldn't have discipline problems in schools.

Our public schools have problems that need to be addressed. But America had something that the rest of the world did not have. Something that allowed us to walk on the moon, to develop computers, invent numerous technologies, continuously raise our standard of living - public schools.

Public school didn't make any of that happen - education did. Education goes on with or without public education. We lean on it to our detriment.

 

[Cracked]

Wait. Aren't you asking what we can do differently? How is that not "changing the system"?

"Within the limits of the current system" I'm fairly sure we're already doing all we can. So I would suggest reexamining the limits of the current system. Are they necessary or even reasonable?

Being a conservative my first suggestion would be take a look back at the systems that came before. Back when we had one of the finest, if not the finest, educational system in the world. What has changed? Isn't that why we study history? To learn from past mistakes...and past successes?

Being an ultra-right wing conservative loon I'd say take a bulldozer to the current system. But I doubt you give that one serious consideration.

I agree. We should reexamine them.
However, while one can say, and it is convenient to say, that society is declining because of education, it is far more accurate to say that education is declining because of society. It starts in the home, not in the schools.

 

[Alate_One]

How? I think that the parents ought to be able to vote out a teacher.

Oh right . . . including the parents that are upset their children didn't get A's despite the fact the children didn't do the work or turned in substandard work? Parents are rarely rational with respect to the actual performance of their children.

Who gets to decide what the students "need to learn?" Shouldn't the parents have a say?

You assume that parents are necessarily qualified to determine what should be in the curriculum or not? Please.

 

[Yorzhik]

I would stop all public money going to schools directly or indirectly.

 

[Cracked]

This is stupid, you have a kid like this you send him to a school that specializes in behavioral problems. Keeping him with the other students only damages *them*.

Stupid?

Having come from an teaching background in one of those schools I can say that, despite the best efforts of many of the staff, they are slow to make any progress, if any with many, many kids. This is because they become a holding ground for behavior problem kids - like a prison in some respects. It is a place that no one wants to fund; a place that no one wants to visit; a place that no one wants to support. It is a place where abuse is the norm, where physical intervention is necessary and common place. It is a place where society puts kids to forget about them. It is a place were few good educators stay for very long. The turn over is so great because the work is so difficult and the pay is so low, yet they are expensive because of the multitude of staff they have to keep on because of safety. And yet, to the teacher and administrators and assistants safety is never guaranteed, and many get hurt in "behavioral incidents."

 

[Ktoyou]

Here is the problem -
A kid comes from a terrible home environment. He doesn't give a rip about school, yet he is forced to attend. While there, he causes problems to the detriment of other students learning (who would've thunk it).

Do we:
A. Give up on the kid.
or
B. Do all we can within the limitations of the existing system to help this child.

B. But not by the old I-want-to-hold-your-hand method. You need to be tough and make them obey and if they still rebel, send them to a boot camp where big marine types work them to the bone and knock some sense into them.

Now some say this does not work on these 'ghetto kids' but I know it does work. So we can sit around namsy pansy and let them end up in prison as adults, or we can give them the tough love they need. It all depends on if we want to keep playing the therapeutic model which does not work, or do some behaviour modification, which has proven to work.

People like approval, they like strokes, but when they can never manage to receive them, then they act like monsters. Its self validation, people rather have bad validation than no validation.:chew:

 

[Nick M]

Here is the problem -
A kid comes from a terrible home environment. He doesn't give a rip about school, yet he is forced to attend. While there, he causes problems to the detriment of other students learning (who would've thunk it).

That certainly exists. So does that mean you ruin everybody else's lives to make up for it? Surely there are parents that are good parents, not derilicts that should be flogged like Brangelina, who will take them.

I know quite a few parents that are absolutely unfit to teach their children....Are all parents going to have the inclination, time or ability to teach their children? I certainly do not think so.

I won't disagree. But, you are refering to a cycle of welfare, producing such people. Take it away, start over. When it comes to a point where the parent can not teach because they are not experts in Calculus, then you start paying for school.

Public Schools were one of the founding elements of American society, its sad you think they are a complete waste of time.

That is a lie. At best they were sort of a Co-op, if they were not homeschooled. Going back to the subject of the thread, what should be done with Public schools. If we are going to have them, make them like they were in the past. Parents in the neighbor hood pick the teacher, and pay him. And he has a paddle on the wall, opposite of the alphabet.

 

[nicholsmom]

I know quite a few parents that are absolutely unfit to teach their children. I know of a family that has a child that's a genius, and the parents are . . . let us say not at all bright, yet they are going to homeschool their child. I can't imagine anything that could be more damaging to this child to be held back by her parents . . . .

I agree, but I'm more worried about kids with learning disabilities and parents who aren't very bright. A genius child can read and learn on her own, but these kids with learning disabilities need extra help.

Are all parents going to have the inclination, time or ability to teach their children? I certainly do not think so.

I agree.

 

[King cobra]

All depends, doesn't it? If public schools actually encouraged independent thinking and taught soundly, I'll give my money happily and proudly.

If by “independent thinking” you mean independent of Godly wisdom, you have your wish. If by “taught soundly” you mean taught over and over that we are just animals, you have your wish. Happy and proud you must be...but don't come to me for a loan.

 

[nicholsmom]

Oh right . . . including the parents that are upset their children didn't get A's despite the fact the children didn't do the work or turned in substandard work? Parents are rarely rational with respect to the actual performance of their children.

I'm not saying that a few disgruntled parents should win the day - I'd go for a super majority - 60%

You assume that parents are necessarily qualified to determine what should be in the curriculum or not? Please.

Yes, but all I said is that parents ought to have a say - ought to be able to request and deny by majority vote.

 

[Alate_One]

I'm not saying that a few disgruntled parents should win the day - I'd go for a super majority - 60% Yes, but all I said is that parents ought to have a say - ought to be able to request and deny by majority vote.

The problem is in both cases which parents are even going to bother to vote? Probably only the disgruntled ones . . . . since a lot of parents today probably wouldn't even care enough to make their voices heard.

 

[fool]

Our public school system is what made this a great country. No matter how poor or uneducated your parents were everyone gets to learn how to read and write and do the stuff with the numbers.

Having said that I do think that our schools have become like a temple with the teachers taking the role of priest, would you hire a preacher that gave the same sermons year after year?
Look at the buildings, is all that really needed in our new netbook world?

I think schools need to get with the times, and that means we don't need all this infrastructure that's closed three months a year. I guess that's my position on libraries as well, we still need places for shops and labs where the hands on stuff needs to take place, you can draw a circuit on your computer but until you learn how to soder you can't make one.

Back in the old days paper was expensive so the kids would have a small chalk board to write things on, now we have devices of the same size that can display the sum of human knowledge.

I'm not voting for anymore brick and mortar stuff.

 

[Ktoyou]

Our public school system is what made this a great country. No matter how poor or uneducated your parents were everyone gets to learn how to read and write and do the stuff with the numbers.

That is how it was when children were taught to respect adults. Reading, writing and arithmetic, taught to the tune of the hickory stick. Hey, it worked.

Having said that I do think that our schools have become like a temple with the teachers taking the role of priest, would you hire a preacher that gave the same sermons year after year?
Look at the buildings, is all that really needed in our new netbook world?

I think schools need to get with the times, and that means we don't need all this infrastructure that's closed three months a year. I guess that's my position on libraries as well, we still need places for shops and labs where the hands on stuff needs to take place, you can draw a circuit on your computer but until you learn how to soder you can't make one.

Back in the old days paper was expensive so the kids would have a small chalk board to write things on, now we have devices of the same size that can display the sum of human knowledge.

I'm not voting for anymore brick and mortar stuff.

I have little opinion here beyond the idea that teachers should teach, not preach.

 

[nicholsmom]

The problem is in both cases which parents are even going to bother to vote? Probably only the disgruntled ones . . . . since a lot of parents today probably wouldn't even care enough to make their voices heard.

That's okay - not enough votes is not enough votes. When I say 60%, I mean 60% of the parents of the kids in that classroom. So if you have 3 disgruntled parents, and the rest are ambivalent, no one gets fired, no curriculum is tossed out, etc. But if the kids are failing because the teacher is not maintaining discipline in the classroom, then lots of parents will be disgruntled - with cause. See what I mean?

 

[InHope]

That's okay - not enough votes is not enough votes. When I say 60%, I mean 60% of the parents of the kids in that classroom. So if you have 3 disgruntled parents, and the rest are ambivalent, no one gets fired, no curriculum is tossed out, etc. But if the kids are failing because the teacher is not maintaining discipline in the classroom, then lots of parents will be disgruntled - with cause. See what I mean?

Isn't this what the school board is supposed to do? They're elected officials, right?

 

[Alate_One]

TI won't disagree. But, you are refering to a cycle of welfare, producing such people. Take it away, start over. When it comes to a point where the parent can not teach because they are not experts in Calculus, then you start paying for school.

How is public education a "cycle of welfare"? I think a lot of parents re not experts (or even passable) in algebra or long division, much less calculus. Teachers are actually TRAINED to teach (what a concept), I'm not saying there aren't bad ones but you're probably safer leaving education to people that are actually . . .educated to do it.

That is a lie. At best they were sort of a Co-op, if they were not homeschooled.

A lie? Hardly, unsurprisingly you're educationally challenged in this area. The Land Ordinance of 1785 established funding for public schools by setting aside section 16 of each township to either fund (by being sold) public education or as a place to actually locate a school. After the mid 1800s public schools began to predominate over private and the US had a very high literacy rate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_education_in_the_United_States

The oldest school in the US is and was a public school.

Going back to the subject of the thread, what should be done with Public schools. If we are going to have them, make them like they were in the past. Parents in the neighbor hood pick the teacher, and pay him. And he has a paddle on the wall, opposite of the alphabet.

I'm not sure parents are qualified to pick teachers. And there have been school boards since the very beginning of public education.

As for corporal punishment, while I don't have a problem with it if the parent does it, its not always used properly in schools and seems to be the first punishment rather than the last.

I say this as someone that went to a Christian school which used corporal punishment and was also spanked by my parents. The school's approach to the matter was terrible, my parents' actually made sense.

In any case it will NEVER fly today. And there are punishments that are far worse than being spanked . . . we need to bring those back. :devil:

 

[Alate_One]

That's okay - not enough votes is not enough votes. When I say 60%, I mean 60% of the parents of the kids in that classroom. So if you have 3 disgruntled parents, and the rest are ambivalent, no one gets fired, no curriculum is tossed out, etc. But if the kids are failing because the teacher is not maintaining discipline in the classroom, then lots of parents will be disgruntled - with cause. See what I mean?

In Hope has it right, school boards are designed to look at this sort of thing. If you don't like the school board's decisions, elect someone else or run for it yourself.

 

[Stripe]

Deny funding to schools.

Parents will always generally be the best teachers for their children. Why fund a program that can only ever devalue the teaching standard?

 

[WandererInFog]

Carrot and stick techniques need to be used to get kids to actually learn. REAL consequences, not "oh no I got sent home". In my high school we had Saturday school. Worst punishment ever.

I don't know how frequently that sort of thing is used in other schools but it worked pretty well in my high school.

I think you're underestimating just how bad the problem is in a lot of places. At the Middle School where my father teaches, they have precisely that punishment and, at best, about half the kids who are supposed to show up will. When you have a situation where the vast majority of the parents simply don't care about their kid's education, and the children themselves have no higher ambitions than doing manual labor or flipping burgers, it becomes very difficult to find either carrot or stick to motivate them with.

 

[Dena]

Deny funding to schools.

Parents will always generally be the best teachers for their children. Why fund a program that can only ever devalue the teaching standard?

It's already been mentioned that many parents are not capable of educating their children. Period. As for my answer, I would opt for year round schooling.