toldailytopic: Eternal torment, Annihilationism or Universalism, which do you believe

eameece

New member
A "cruel and capricious deity" would not provide grace, forgiveness, and an escape from death and hell . . . for anybody.

You are making the demand that God is obligated to save all, in order to be a righteous God. But God is righteous, primarily because He is holy and just.

I am so thankful God saved any of us from our sins, because none of us deserve His salvation, let alone the ransom price of the sacrifice of His only begotten Son.

Nang
God is unconditional love, so "He" saves all. We are all sons and daughters of God, and God loves all his children. What child of yours would you not save?

God did not sacrifice his "only begotten Son;" He rose from the dead, and could have continued on Earth, as he did for a while; but then he ascended.
 

eameece

New member
I would love to believe in eventual annihilationism and think a case can be made for it, but in light of all the scriptures that touch anywhere on the issue, no matter how much i would love to believe it, i cannot and have to believe the bible speaks of eternal torment and it comes right down to if torment is not eternal, than neither will any have eternal life, because the 2 cannot be separated since the same use of eternal is given for eternal life as it is eternal punishment.

The torment i believe though is mostly self torment, being aware of having known the truth and rejecting it anyway and knowing you will be forever separated from the love of God and others when you could have had all that and did this to yourself.
God could care less if you "accept Jesus as your savior." He doesn't care which religion you belong to. What torment there is, is self-torment; yes. When we let go and forgive, we move on. That is a kind of "grace."
 

Selaphiel

Well-known member
A "cruel and capricious deity" would not provide grace, forgiveness, and an escape from death and hell . . . for anybody.

You are making the demand that God is obligated to save all, in order to be a righteous God. But God is righteous, primarily because He is holy and just.

I am so thankful God saved any of us from our sins, because none of us deserve His salvation, let alone the ransom price of the sacrifice of His only begotten Son.

Nang

An all powerful God who only chooses to save a few based on no particular conditions is cruel and capricious. A God who is all loving and only saves a few is lacking in power. It is impossible to reconcile the attributes of omnipotence and omnibenevolence with Calvinistic soteriology. Calling Calvinism for Christianity is a joke at best, it renders the statement "God is love" utterly meaningless.
 

Angel4Truth

New member
Hall of Fame
God could care less if you "accept Jesus as your savior." He doesn't care which religion you belong to. What torment there is, is self-torment; yes. When we let go and forgive, we move on. That is a kind of "grace."

You are dead wrong and I hope you get it right before you meet Him in person. Your Jesus apparently died for nothing since you seem to believe you need no savior.
 

Letsargue

New member
You are dead wrong and I hope you get it right before you meet Him in person. Your Jesus apparently died for nothing since you seem to believe you need no savior.


God’s caring IS His “Will”!! – God gave everyone of us a ( Choice ). - If he carried the way some think, He’d only given everyone the one Right Choice. -- Now even, CHOOSE!!

Paul – 040413
 

BigBoof1959

New member
If you want to believe that "few there are who find" the narrow way to salvation, and also that God is omniscient, then God decided to create a huge number of people that He knew ahead of time would sin and never accept salvation. Why create them in the first place? Why not create only those who you know will sin, but who you also know will avail themselves of the redemption that you plan to offer?

If the reality of "free will" has to be demonstrated by allowing people to persist in sin to the ultimate degree, why not create just one person who you know will suffer that fate, and use that as an example instead of creating billions and billions of people who will take the "broad way" to "destruction"?

If either endless punishment or annihilation is true, then in the former case (eternal punishment), God could have had the writers of scripture use words available to them in both Greek and Hebrew to describe both concepts without any possibility of a doubt, instead of using words like "aion" and "olam" which are not very specific. You would also think that maybe God would have warned Adam and Eve about these terrible possibilities (ECT or annihilation) instead of just saying "dying you will die" and not elaborating any further about what "dying" entails. In order for God's statement about "dying" to be a deterrent to disobedience, there would have to be some kind of understanding about what "death" is. Which brings up my problem with the annihilation view. The bible uses words dealing with "death" in so many ways, it isn't clear how the term is being used in each of the contexts in which it is found. It is left quite open to various interpretations. Which is why many of the the early church fathers had widely varying views on the scope of God's salvation of man. If universal salvation is so clearly heretical as many people claim, why was Gregory of Nyssa allowed to play such a prominent role in developing the concept of the trinity at the council where the Nicene Creed was drafted? Was, and is, this council and the formulation of this creed, such a trivial matter that the church could afford to let an open teacher of universalism even as much as attend the council, much less play an important role in it's work?

Why is there so much (apparent, but not real) equivocating in what God says? One minute He is saying to Israel "your wound is incurable" and then later on He says He is going to cure them? In Jude He says that Sodom and the surrounding area are suffering the vengeance of "eternal fire", but in Ezekiel 16 He says that Sodom will have it's captives restored and will be given to Jerusalem as a daughter. There are many other examples. The following are from a book titled "Hope Beyond Hell" which can be found at tentmaker.org -

A Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord’s congregation forever [olam]. But only until the 10th generation. (De. 23:3).

Hills are everlasting [olam]. But only until made low and the earth is burned up (Ge. 49:26; De. 33:15; Is. 40:4; 2Pe. 3:10).

Mountains are everlasting [olam]. But only until they are scattered (Hab. 3:6).

A slave serves his master forever [olam]. But only until death ends his servitude (Ex. 21:6).

The Mosaic covenant is everlasting [olam]. But only until it vanishes away (Le. 24:8; He. 8:7-13).

The Aaronic priesthood is everlasting [olam]. But only until the likeness of Melchizedek arises (Ex. 40:15; Nu. 25:13; He. 7:14-22).

These “stones” are to be a memorial forever [olam]. Where are they now (Jos. 4:7)?
Even passages that do not use the word olam, but signify unchanging, are not so when God is involved. Nothing can deter Him from achieving His purposes. For example:

Israel’s affliction is incurable. But only until the Lord restores health and heals her wounds (Jer. 30:12, 17).

Samaria’s wounds are incurable. But only until the Lord brings them back and restores them (Mic. 1:9; Ez. 16:53).

Egypt and Elam will rise no more. But only until the Lord brings back their captives (Jer. 25:27; 49:39; Ez. 29:14).

Moab is destroyed. But only until the Lord brings back the captives of Moab (Jer. 48:4, 42, 47).

Augustine raised the argument that since aionios in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases.5 However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when aionios referred to the duration of Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, aionios referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether.

Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated. It is similar to what “tall” is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet. Black Beauty was a great horse, Abraham Lincoln a great man, and Yahweh the GREAT God. Though God is called “great,” the word “great” is neither eternal nor divine. The horse is still a horse. An adjective relates to the noun it modifies. In relation to God, “great” becomes GREAT only because of who and what God is. This silences the contention that aion must always mean forever because it modifies God. God is described as the God of Israel and the God of Abraham. This does not mean He is not the God of Gentiles, or the God of you and me. Though He is called the God of the “ages,” He nonetheless remains the God who transcends the ages.

In addition, Augustine’s reasoning does not hold up in light of Ro. 16:25, 26 and Hab. 3:6. Here, in both cases, the same word is used twice—with God and with something temporal. “In accord with the revelation of a secret hushed in times eonian, yet manifested now…according to the injunction of the eonian God” (Ro. 16:25, 26 CLT). An eonian secret revealed at some point cannot be eternal even though it is revealed by the eonian God. Eonian does not make God eternal, but God makes eonian eternal. “And the everlasting mountains were scattered.…His ways are everlasting” (Hab. 3:6). Mountains are not eternal, though they will last a very long time. God’s ways however, are eternal, because He is eternal.



One other note for those who insist on the necessity of aionian meaning eternal for both "life" and "punishment" in Matt. 25:46 - When the age (aion) that the phrase "aionian life" refers to comes to an end, death will have already been destroyed, swallowed up by life. Life will be all that is left, so death is limited to the "aions", life is not.
 

Lighthouse

The Dark Knight
Gold Subscriber
Hall of Fame
For what? Creating beings made of fallible flesh and blood, and a speck of existence in which to find the one way out of a maze which doesn't result in being roasted or some other unspeakable eternal form of suffering?

The mind boggles at the cruelty of such a doctrine...
Why do you presume to know what Hell or the Lake of Fire will entail?

Doormat = elo? :noway:
Or so I've been informed.

2 Peter 3:1-12

1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

1 Thessalonians 5:1-4

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
What were we talking about?

God’s mercy is equally perfect with His justice.

Let me ask a question; is the Rapture preceded by the day of Judgement?
No, it precedes the day of judgment.

Then your love for him should be greater than mine, shouldn't it?
My love for God and His truth is greater than my love for anyone, or anything, else. I will not accept those who speak lies in His name.

This.
All I need is an actual reading of John 3:16, with no additional doctrinal trappings.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

If those who believe in Christ will have ETERNAL LIFE, then it follows those who don't will NOT.
Otherwise why state it so?
If they DON'T have eternal life, how can they be tormented eternally?

End of argument, for me at least.
You're misinterpreting "life."
 

Timotheos

New member
The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for April 2nd, 2013 05:00 AM


toldailytopic: Eternal torment, Annihilationism or Universalism, which do you believe and why?






Take the topic above and run with it! Slice it, dice it, give us your general thoughts about it. Everyday there will be a new TOL Topic of the Day.
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Thanks Knight. I agree with the Bible, that the wages of sin is death. So I could be called an annihilationist. I prefer the term "Conditional Immortality". People are not inherently immortal. The only way to receive immortality is on the condition of receiving Jesus Christ. "To all who received Him, He gave the right to be called the children of God".

A plain reading of the Bible best supports Annihiltionism over Universalism or Eternal Tormentism.
 

Aimiel

Well-known member
Were eternal torment not in Scripture, I would believe in annihilationism... but since I believe The Holy Scriptures...
 

Letsargue

New member
Were eternal torment not in Scripture, I would believe in annihilationism... but since I believe The Holy Scriptures...


Which Scripture is lying:>>-- John 3:16 KJV ---OR--- Romans 3:10-12 KJV ------//--- Which one is a lie??? -- That last one has two witnesses, (( "As it is Written" )), meaning that it is assured!!

Paul -- 040413
 

eameece

New member
You are dead wrong and I hope you get it right before you meet Him in person. Your Jesus apparently died for nothing since you seem to believe you need no savior.

Put down your gun, and then open your heart. Your savior is within you. Heaven is not Christian and Hell is not Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Pagan, Sikh, etc.
 

Letsargue

New member
Thanks Knight. I agree with the Bible, that the wages of sin is death. So I could be called an annihilationist. I prefer the term "Conditional Immortality". People are not inherently immortal. The only way to receive immortality is on the condition of receiving Jesus Christ. "To all who received Him, He gave the right to be called the children of God".

A plain reading of the Bible best supports Annihiltionism over Universalism or Eternal Tormentism.


Some of these so called ?christians say that they Read the Scriptures!!! – Here’s PROOF that some of them Don’t!! ---- Luke 10:25 KJV ---&--- Ezekiel 44:28 KJV – 28- “And it shall be unto them for an inheritance: ((( I am their inheritance ))): and ye shall give them ( no possession in Israel ): ((( I am their possession ))). -----//-- Now Christ is the “Life” and all His Priests shall Inherit the same Life their Fathers did. --- ((( And you said that “People are not Inherently immortal” ))). – Wrong. – Everyone Inherits everlasting life; either from Satan, or from God!!! – CHOOSE!! --- Deuteronomy 30:19 KJV --- 19- “I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live”. --------///---- Read the Book!!!

Paul – 040513
 

xAvarice

BANNED
Banned
Absolutely and without question.

Romans 1

19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

You just proved your own argument invalid... they're absolutely rejecting God because it says so in the bible... how many people do you think have read the bible and gotten to that part? In my country, it will not be a very high percentage, these people are sinners just because God has not display himself to them?

That does not seem to fit with the rest of your beliefs.
 

Timotheos

New member
Mr "Letsargue":

Luke 10:25 says: And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
We don't naturally have eternal life, we must inherit eternal life from God. Jesus didn't say "you already have eternal life, the question is whether you will spend it in heavenly bliss or in torment in hell." This verse proves my case better than the doctrine of eternal torment.
Deuteronomy 20:19 sets out the two possibilties, life or death; Not eternal life being tormented or eternal life not being tormented. It absolutely does not say "everyone inherits eternal life, either from Satan or from God". Satan does not have the power to grant eternal life. The theif only comes to steal, kill, and destroy. The theif, the devil Satan can't give eternal life. You are actually being deceived by Satan's lie, "Surely you will not die". God's word says "The wages of sin is death". You say "CHOOSE!" I'll ask you the same thing. Do you choose to follow God who said (through the Apostle Paul) "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" or do you choose to follow Satan who lied to you and said "Surely you will not die".

Also, please do not attempt to say that I am not a Christian. I am a Christian and you don't know whether I am or not, so you have no right to claim that I am not. I've reported your post because you lied about me.
 

Letsargue

New member
Mr "Letsargue":

Luke 10:25 says: And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
We don't naturally have eternal life, we must inherit eternal life from God. Jesus didn't say "you already have eternal life, the question is whether you will spend it in heavenly bliss or in torment in hell." This verse proves my case better than the doctrine of eternal torment.
Deuteronomy 20:19 sets out the two possibilties, life or death; Not eternal life being tormented or eternal life not being tormented. It absolutely does not say "everyone inherits eternal life, either from Satan or from God". Satan does not have the power to grant eternal life. The theif only comes to steal, kill, and destroy. The theif, the devil Satan can't give eternal life. You are actually being deceived by Satan's lie, "Surely you will not die". God's word says "The wages of sin is death". You say "CHOOSE!" I'll ask you the same thing. Do you choose to follow God who said (through the Apostle Paul) "The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" or do you choose to follow Satan who lied to you and said "Surely you will not die".

Also, please do not attempt to say that I am not a Christian. I am a Christian and you don't know whether I am or not, so you have no right to claim that I am not. I've reported your post because you lied about me.


Wrong!!
Matthew 7:20 KJV -----//--

“Christian” - means: -- to “LOOK LIKE CHRIST” from the heart!!! – That is, everything you teach can not contradict in any with the Word of God, and yours ALL DO, one way or another. That’s the definition of a non-christian, or antichrist. - Prove that wrong, and you’ll BE RIGHT!!!! -- Or you can STAY angry, and say your not like one of those!!

Paul – 040513
 

Timotheos

New member
Wrong!!
Matthew 7:20 KJV -----//--

“Christian” - means: -- to “LOOK LIKE CHRIST” from the heart!!! – That is, everything you teach can not contradict in any with the Word of God, and yours ALL DO, one way or another. That’s the definition of a non-christian, or antichrist. - Prove that wrong, and you’ll BE RIGHT!!!! -- Or you can STAY angry, and say your not like one of those!!

Paul – 040513

Let's not argue Paul. I'm not angry. I am a Christian and I accurately posted from the Word of God. What I posted doesn't contradict any of Scripture. I don't want to argue with you, but I also don't want you to lie about me. What if someone believed you? Then they would think something about me that is not true. You wouldn't want that, would you? Concerning Matthew 7:20, I've seen the fruit of those who believe in eternal torment. I've seen the fruit of those who believe Romans 6:23 and the rest of the Gospel. I know which group is more Christ-like. I've seen your posts before too, so please do not try to claim that you are like Jesus Christ.
 

Letsargue

New member
Let's not argue Paul. I'm not angry. I am a Christian and I accurately posted from the Word of God. What I posted doesn't contradict any of Scripture. I don't want to argue with you, but I also don't want you to lie about me. What if someone believed you? Then they would think something about me that is not true. You wouldn't want that, would you? Concerning Matthew 7:20, I've seen the fruit of those who believe in eternal torment. I've seen the fruit of those who believe Romans 6:23 and the rest of the Gospel. I know which group is more Christ-like. I've seen your posts before too, so please do not try to claim that you are like Jesus Christ.


Please SPEAK for yourself and NOT FOR ME Then!!! – Christ’s flesh was FORMRD, OR MADE OF the Word of God / GOD, Right??? -- If we are ( IN ) that stuff, and that stuff is ( IN ) US, we are JUST LIKE the stuff we’re IN; - thus WE are formed in His likeness by the same stuff / the Word of God, and one must show the Truth that comes from the heart of your stuff. That does not happen today by ANYONE!!! – Theirs are all the WRONG stuff!!

Paul – 040513
 

Timotheos

New member
Punishment and Torture are not the same.

I agree. There are many forms of punishment. Death is one of them. Torture is inherently unjust, so we can be sure that God, who is absolutely just will not have anyone tortured. I think we can all agree that putting someone into a fire forcing them to endure the flames forever and ever would be a form of torture. God is good, and doesn't have people tortured. According to the Bible, the penalty for sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. Jesus Christ paid the penalty for sin that we owed, death, by His death on the cross. So we can have eternal life with Him.
 
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