toldailytopic: Eternal torment, Annihilationism or Universalism, which do you believe

[Timotheos]

So if He did say "these will depart into everlasting punishment" you would believe Him? and conversely if you preach another message will it make you liar?

I'm not sure if you are calling me a liar or not. If you are calling me a liar, I wouldn't respond. I'll assume that you are not.

I believe Jesus Christ, although you have misquoted Him. It's ETERNAL punishment, not everlasting punishment. κόλασιν αἰώνιον
Are you trying to tell me that I don't believe in eternal punishment? Being destroyed and being dead forever is eternal punishment, unless you think that eternal destruction is only temporary and the sinner who is destroyed and is eternally dead is only temporarily eternally dead.

Come on, make an attempt to understand my position before you disagree with it.

 

[Timotheos]

"Death" is, in this instance, everlasting. It is the annihilation of the soul. It no longer exists.
For those who love God, this very thought is terrifying.

Exactly.

Our posts crossed. "Temporarily Eternally Dead". They think we believe this!

 

[Totton Linnet]

I'm not sure if you are calling me a liar or not. If you are calling me a liar, I wouldn't respond. I'll assume that you are not.

I believe Jesus Christ, although you have misquoted Him. It's ETERNAL punishment, not everlasting punishment. κόλασιν αἰώνιον
Are you trying to tell me that I don't believe in eternal punishment? Being destroyed and being dead forever is eternal punishment, unless you think that eternal destruction is only temporary and the sinner who is destroyed and is eternally dead is only temporarily eternally dead.

Come on, make an attempt to understand my position before you disagree with it.

*
Yes I was calling you a liar, you have sold yourself to believe a lie. What you say is a contradiction in terms....if there was an end to the punishment then it coul not be everlasting.

If you deny it is everlasting then you must deny that the life promised to God's sheep is everlasting...if one has an end then so does the other.

God will not thank you for saying to the wicked child murderer "go in peace, it will be well with your soul" they already believe that, they already believe that there is no afterlife, no God, no awful day of judgement, no recompence for their wickedness.

Yes I called you a liar.

 

[Totton Linnet]

The fact that this is the only drum you ever beat is an indication as to where you got it from.

What if your doctrine is the decisive factor in someone committing an atrocity and I believe it is. I believe the wicked person absolutely assures him/herself that there is no God, no awful day o judgement, no eternal punishment before they commit their awful crimes.

You cry if I call you liar but what if God says you are the fellow and abettor of murder and childmurder?

 

[bybee]

*
Yes I was calling you a liar, you have sold yourself to believe a lie. What you say is a contradiction in terms....if there was an end to the punishment then it coul not be everlasting.

If you deny it is everlasting then you must deny that the life promised to God's sheep is everlasting...if one has an end then so does the other.

God will not thank you for saying to the wicked child murderer "go in peace, it will be well with your soul" they already believe that, they already believe that there is no afterlife, no God, no awful day of judgement, no recompence for their wickedness.

Yes I called you a liar.

My dear Totton, You have, apparently, boxed yourself into an "either/or" definition here. I do not think that it fits what Arsenios is saying nor does it fit what I am saying.
There is no endorsement of sin. There is judgment of the sinner.
A loving God simply would not engage in senseless unremitting punishment. It is not necessary. Dead is dead! and that is what the unrepentant sinner shall be.

 

[Timotheos]

The fact that this is the only drum you ever beat is an indication as to where you got it from.

I got it from the Bible.


Now since you have proven yourself to be an insulter, you will be ignored.

Proverbs 11:12 ESV
Whoever belittles his neighbor lacks sense, but a man of understanding remains silent.

 

[Totton Linnet]

The fool who refuses instruction makes a stick with which to beat himself.

 

[Timotheos]

The fool who refuses instruction makes a stick with which to beat himself.

According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death, not eternal torture.
Romans 6:23

If you think I am a fool, ignore me. Ignore the Bible, I really don't care. I'll believe the Bible.

Goodbye.

 

[resurrected]

A loving God simply would not engage in senseless unremitting punishment.

you think God loves unrepentant sinners? :kookoo:

 

[bybee]

you think God loves unrepentant sinners? :kookoo:

I did not say that you poor, pathetic, confused, decerebrate you! The unrepentant sinner, you may now look in the mirror, shall receive judgment.

 

[resurrected]

you're not quite right in the head, are you?

 

[bybee]

you're not quite right in the head, are you?

Ah but I am...right in my head!
Who's in your head? Or, what's in your head?:chuckle:

 

[Timotheos]

you think God loves unrepentant sinners? :kookoo:

God shows his love for us in this. While we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Your trouble is that you don't know the scriptures or the love of God.

 

[resurrected]

While we were yet sinners Christ died for us.

yep, and those that reject His free gift will be rejected, cast out

not loved

 

[Lighthouse]

"Torment" is in only two of the passages I posted (according to my search thingy) and I addressed it quite plainly in one of them.

The usage in rev 14 would be referring to dying in flames over whatever period of time. It says the smoke of the torment goes on, not the torment. Which I also addressed by way of comparing the Isaiah passage. I wouldn't call either case "ignoring".

Nothing on any of the other passages?

Matthew 25:46 and 1 John 4:18 use the same word in Greek and it is translated punishment and torment, respectively. What is your take on that?

Really? You want me to support my statement that you are not Jesus Christ?

There was a misread, or something on my part. I thought you said that I was not Christ-like.

Still can you support the second accusation?

I haven't been counting. Sorry. Why don't you go count them up?

Then stop acting like it's all I do. If you can't quantify it don't act like you can.

Add this one to the tallly.

Seriously?:doh:

No, you called me deluded, a troll, and a liar. With the insults flying out of you two like chips from a manure spreader it is hard to keep track. I don't think it is better to be called a "deluded lying troll" than it is to be called a "deluded retard", so I am simply going to ignore anyone who insults me. I'm not saying "don't insult me" because I know that I can't change your nature. I'm saying that I won't respond to anyone who insults me, unless I feel like it, I will post scripture supporting my case. If you feel that you need me to respond to something you've said, you will have to retract the insults.

So now carrying forward with the biblical proof that the wicked perish instead of being tortured alive forever:
Jesus said in John 5:24
"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."

Jesus did not say "whoever believes has passed from eternal life in hell being tortured alive forever to eternal life in heaven without torture."

So that's Matthew 3:12, Matthew 7:13, Matthew 13:30, Luke 13:3 and 5, John 3:16, Ezekiel 18:4, Romans 6:23 and John 5:24

And here is a list of verses that say that the wicked will go to Hell when they die where they will be tortured or tormented alive forever (while they are dead):

None.

If anyone thinks I am deluded, a retard, or a deluded retard, they always have the option of NOT READING WHAT I POST!

We've been through all of these and I have responded with the Scripture that tears it apart. So I'm going to take the option of ignoring you now.

 

[Totton Linnet]

According to the Bible, the wages of sin is death, not eternal torture.
Romans 6:23

If you think I am a fool, ignore me. Ignore the Bible, I really don't care. I'll believe the Bible.

Goodbye.

When the devil hissed to Adam "you will not die..." he was empowering Adam's resolve to sin...giving impetus and strength to the temptation. When you proclaim there is no eternal punishment to face you are doing the same.

There is no worse judgement than that which falls upon the false prophet, this is the reason.

 

[Vaquero45]

Matthew 25:46 and 1 John 4:18 use the same word in Greek and it is translated punishment and torment, respectively. What is your take on that?

Matthew 25 doesn't say anything about the lost having eternal life, and:

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.​

strongly suggests they will not. (as do lots of other verses that talk about their death, destruction, turning to ash, vanishing as smoke...). The punishment/torment would certainly have an eternal effect though.

1 John 4:18 ... the context doesn't seem to be on topic to me, maybe loosely, but at any rate, it appears punishment/torment are interchangeable, which makes sense on either side of the view. The NAS and NASB use punishment, but I don't think it changes the meaning. Punishments are usually something that could be described using torment. The degree varies of course.

 

[resurrected]

Matthew 25 doesn't say anything about the lost having eternal life, and:

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him...​

....for a little while, then God's wrath dissipates because his soul is destroyed?​

 

[Lighthouse]

Matthew 25 doesn't say anything about the lost having eternal life, and:

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.​

strongly suggests they will not. (as do lots of other verses that talk about their death, destruction, turning to ash, vanishing as smoke...). The punishment/torment would certainly have an eternal effect though.

1 John 4:18 ... the context doesn't seem to be on topic to me, maybe loosely, but at any rate, it appears punishment/torment are interchangeable, which makes sense on either side of the view. The NAS and NASB use punishment, but I don't think it changes the meaning. Punishments are usually something that could be described using torment. The degree varies of course.

Matthew 25 says the punishment is eternal, so if the word "torment," can be interchanged then the torment is eternal, according to Jesus' own words.

Also, what do you think life means in this context?

 

[Arthur Brain]

How about the word 'Theion'? Perhaps it isn't meant as a literal burning torment with 'fire and brimstone' after all? For any who can actually think outside of a box?

http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/nas/theion.html