toldailytopic: Are Christians called to forgive the Colorado Movie Theater killer?

[Angel4Truth]

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

How do we have a good conscience before God without asking for forgiveness of sin?

 

[Angel4Truth]

I don't have much faith for ANYone to get saved unless christians shake themselves up a bit to get out of their lazy minded ways of condemnation preaching.

Then no, you do not believe that all people will be saved, even though you believe that Christ has already forgiven everyone - which means we are all sin free.

See what i believe is that Christ offers forgiveness to everyone, but some will not come to Him that they might have life.

John 5:40
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

We have to come to Him. Forgiveness is not automatic.

 

[heir]

In other words i have to come to Him right? Because there is no way to believe if you do not know you have committed a sin that you NEED forgiving for.

Therefore, forgiveness happens when you humble yourself and believe. Ask and you shall receive right?

To believe the gospel of Christ is to believe that you have already been forgiven all trespasses. The Lord Jesus Christ was made to be sin for you, died on the cross for our sins, was buried and was raised again for our justification proving that all of our sins are paid in full! Just how many sins did Christ NOT die for? I believe if He died for one (and He did) He died for them all (and He did).

 

[Angel4Truth]

To believe the gospel of Christ is to believe that you have already been forgiven all trespasses. The Lord Jesus Christ was made to be sin for you, died on the cross for our sins, was buried and was raised again for our justification proving that all of our sins are paid in full! Just how many sins did Christ NOT die for? I believe if He died for one (and He did) He died for them all (and He did).

I agree, but you had to come to Him for that forgiveness. You would not have it and could not claim it, if you did not come.

 

[heir]

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

How do we have a good conscience before God without asking for forgiveness of sin?

Believing that you have to ask to be forgiven is to believe that you have not already been forgiven.

Colossians 2:13 KJV And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[Angel4Truth]

Simple answer. The righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ was never put to their account.

Then He forgave them but then took it back?

Thats not what i believe, i believe its offered, but if it is not received, it cannot be claimed.

Looking at this verse again, is the righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ unto all? Is the righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ upon all? What does the verse say is necessary to have the righteousness of God upon you?

All who believe, but to believe one has to acknowledge the need for forgiveness.

Romans 3:22 KJV Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Right offered to all, placed upon those who believe, what is to believe? To believe that Christ died for your sins, which means acknowledging the need for a savior.

You cant believe if you do not believe you need forgiveness for sin can you?

Which leaves 2 options, everyone is saved automatically - all mankind

Or, we have to come to Him for forgiveness.

 

[Angel4Truth]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for July 23rd, 2012 10:59 AM

toldailytopic: Are Christians called to forgive the Colorado Movie Theater killer?

Yes and No.

Yes, if he asks the christians that his actions affected for forgiveness then yes they are called to forgive him as Christ forgave them.

No, if you mean all christians in general.

 

[heir]

Then He forgave them but then took it back?

Thats not what i believe, i believe its offered, but if it is not received, it cannot be claimed.

Where did I say He took it back? You are trying to add that one need ask for forgiveness. I see no such requirement to be saved. In order for the righteousness of God to be upon them, they need believe.

Simple answer. The righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ was never put to their account. Looking at this verse again, is the righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ unto all? Is the righteousness of God by faith of Jesus Christ upon all? What does the verse say is necessary to have the righteousness of God upon you?

Romans 3:22 KJV Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

You want it to be something you had to ask for as if God had not already done everything necessary to save you 2000 years ago by the cross of Jesus Christ and His being raised from the dead.

All who believe, but to believe one has to acknowledge the need for forgiveness.

To believe one need trust the Lord believing that all of their sins are paid in full. That's the gospel of Christ.

To believe that Christ died for your sins, which means acknowledging the need for a savior.

I have never said that one need not recognize themself a sinner.

You cant believe if you do not believe you need forgiveness for sin can you?

I can believe that I have already been forgiven when God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself not imputing my trespasses unto me. He was made to be sin for me that I might be made the righteousness of God in Him. I trust Him for salvation believing the word of truth and have the righteousness of God upon me.

Which leaves 2 options, everyone is saved automatically - all mankind

Or, we have to come to Him for forgiveness.

God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself when He was not imputing the world's trespasses unto them. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. It is up to each individual to be reconciled to God. That is done by trusting the Lord believing how that Christ died for our sins and that He was buried and rose again the third day.

2 Corinthians 5:18-21 KJV And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

[heir]

How did Christ forgive you?

by His faith and finished work on the cross in my place

Did He forgive you before you asked for forgiveness?

Yes!

Colossians 2:13 KJV And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

I never asked Him for anything. I trusted Christ as my Saviour believing how that Christ died for my sins, was buried and was raised again the third day for my justification.

 

[ICameBack]

Hmmmm, do not forgive the Aurora shooter?
I see many playing semantics with the verses to justify holding on to a resentment against this murderer. How's that working out for you?

Just because he didn't sin directly against me, doesn't mean it didn't effect me. It sure as heck was a sin against my precious Lord and I take it as personally as it would be an attack on my family. It grieved me and reminded me of my own sin which was an utter offence to God.

Are you saying that if someone sins against you and does not repent that you should not forgive them (at least in your heart)? Most of the sins committed against me have never been repented of and yet if I don't forgive, I will not be forgiven. It is about the position of your heart. With the grace of God, I am placing mine in a state of forgiveness.

I forgive James Holmes

 

[heir]

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

How do we have a good conscience before God without asking for forgiveness of sin?

believe!

Romans 6:23 KJV For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ephesians 2:4-9 KJV But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved 6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Charity]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for July 23rd, 2012 10:59 AM

toldailytopic: Are Christians called to forgive the Colorado Movie Theater killer?

Take the topic above and run with it! Slice it, dice it, give us your general thoughts about it. Everyday there will be a new TOL Topic of the Day.
If you want to make suggestions for the Topic of the Day send a Tweet to @toldailytopic or @theologyonline or send it to us via Facebook.

I'll forgive those that think they can Pardon Him.
anyway... forgiveness is Compassion towards the state of affairs that one, can't wind a clock Back an wipe the record. totally Toxic.

 

[Lighthouse]

When did Christ say that TO you? Why do you (and Knight) take doctrine on forgiveness in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and apply it TO the church, the Body of Christ?

If you're going to take what Christ says in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John on forgiveness as something that applies TO you in the dispensation of the grace of God, then you must aslo apply this:

Mark 11:25-26 KJV And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. 26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

If you do not forgive, neither will your father in heaven forgive you?

Is that true of you or me?

Consider what Paul says. He writes:

Ephesians 4:32 KJV And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Colossians 2:13 KJV And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

So we should just throw out everything Jesus said; none of it still holds true across dispensations?

 

[heir]

Lighthouse,

You didn't answer the questions I asked you. Would you, please?

If you're being honest with yourself and the scriptures you should have already seen that what Christ taught while on earth about forgiveness differs from that which Paul preached. And while that may be news to someone who has never heard of right division, this should not be new information to you. So when you see they differ, that they contradict one another, why is it that you still hold to Christ's words to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24 KJV) as He was a minister of the circumcision (Romans 15:8 KJV) when you know good and well that you are to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV) by considering what Paul says (2 Timothy 2:7 KJV)?

So we should just throw out everything Jesus said; none of it still holds true across dispensations?

Who said anything about throwing out what Jesus said (as you say)? That sounds like something someone that opposes right division would imply. Rightly divide the word of truth, Lighthouse! All of the Bible is FOR our learning (Romans 15:4 KJV), but it's not all written directly TO us. Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles (Romans 11:13 KJV, 1 Timothy 2:7 KJV, 2 Timothy 1:11 KJV), given the dispensation of the gospel (1 Corinthians 9:17 KJV, the dispensation grace of God for you Gentiles (Ephesians 3:1-6 KJV). You are to follow Paul in doctrine 1 Corinthians 4:15-16 KJV, 1 Corinthians 11:1 KJV, 2 Timothy 2:2 KJV, 2 Timothy 2:7-8 KJV, to hold fast the form of sound words which thou hast heard of Paul~ Romans through Philemon (2 Timothy 1:13 KJV)~ which is written directly to the Body of Christ.

 

[Sherman]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for July 23rd, 2012 10:59 AM

toldailytopic: Are Christians called to forgive the Colorado Movie Theater killer?

No--absolutely not. The creep is not repentant and he didn't personally wrong you. Forgiveness is reserved for those who wrong you. Our society would be chaos if animals like this fellow were not punished. Justice needs to be meted out to the criminal. In this case it is the death penalty.

Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. Luke 17:3 This verse proves a model for how we should treat someone who does wrong. Forgiveness is contingent on repentance. That is something most Christians miss. Christians are not meant to lie down and be a rug for everybody else to wipe their feet upon.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Then no, you do not believe that all people will be saved, even though you believe that Christ has already forgiven everyone - which means we are all sin free.

See what i believe is that Christ offers forgiveness to everyone, but some will not come to Him that they might have life.

John 5:40
But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

We have to come to Him. Forgiveness is not automatic.

I have not said this, if you had read my post you would have known what I did say.

What I said is that you are pointing your finger at a worm, you who are a worm yourself. How do you know he will not get saved in jail? maybe that's the only place he could get saved. I believe in Bushy's term in office he revolutionised prison rehabilitation and threw the door wide open for evangelicals to go in and minister, many even on death row are being saved.

You are taking the "righteously outraged" stance in regard to this person...that is the carnal reaction. He is no more sinner than you and a good many others including me.

Paul the apostle as far as YOU are concerned was beyond the pale for he dragged men and women off to be put to death and punished because they belonged to Jesus.

Someone when they heard of his ravings prayed, probably it was that disciple at Damascus [the Lord works that way] if you say you are praying mightily in the Spirit for that man's soul yet crying for his blood...sorry, don't believe you.

 

[Angel4Truth]

I have not said this, if you had read my post you would have known what I did say.

What I said is that you are pointing your finger at a worm, you who are a worm yourself. How do you know he will not get saved in jail? maybe that's the only place he could get saved. I believe in Bushy's term in office he revolutionised prison rehabilitation and threw the door wide open for evangelicals to go in and minister, many even on death row are being saved.

You are taking the "righteously outraged" stance in regard to this person...that is the carnal reaction. He is no more sinner than you and a good many others including me.

Paul the apostle as far as YOU are concerned was beyond the pale for he dragged men and women off to be put to death and punished because they belonged to Jesus.

Someone when they heard of his ravings prayed, probably it was that disciple at Damascus [the Lord works that way] if you say you are praying mightily in the Spirit for that man's soul yet crying for his blood...sorry, don't believe you.

Where have i said anything about the man or how i feel about him personally like you keep saying? Show my post, thanks.

 

[ICameBack]

Looks like Christ can forgive heinous killers
http://www.christianpost.com/news/s...wont-seek-parole-gives-jesus-as-reason-54474/
Can you?
Looks like Christ is using Berkowitz to do a mighty thing and saving people in prison. I'm sure he isn't the first.

All is not lost for Holmes.

 

[JoyfulRook]

If Christians are always to forgive, then we should not expect to find God or God’s people withholding forgiveness. But a quick Bible survey shows plenty of examples of God and God’s people withholding forgiveness:

Old Testament

Noah – He did not forgive Ham; instead Caanan was cursed.
Abraham – He did not forgive the Kings of Shinar, Ellasar, Elam and Goiim (The Four Kings); instead he attacked them.
Moses – He did not forgive Pharaoh at the Red Sea; instead he stretched out his hand over the sea, which killed Pharaoh
Moses – He did not forgive Korah; instead Korah was killed
Moses – He did not forgive the golden calf idolaters; instead he sent the Levites to kill 3,000 people
Joshua- He did not forgive Carmi- instead Joshua had Carmi and his household stoned and burned
Samson – He did not forgive the Philistines; instead he killed them.
Samuel – He did not forgive Saul; instead he cursed Saul and his sons.
David – He did not forgive Joab; instead he urged Solomon to kill Joab.
- He did not forgive Shimei; instead he urged Solomon to kill Shimei
- In Psalm 58:10, he wrote, “The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance, He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked.” This is a state of unforgiveness.
Elijah – He did not forgive the 400 prophets of Baal; instead he had their heads cut off.
Elisha– He did not forgive the 42 young men who called him “baldhead”; instead he had bears attack and kill them.​

New Testament

Jesus- He did not forgive the money changers; instead he drove them from the temple
- He did not forgive Judas
- He did not forgive the scribes and Pharisees; instead he rebuked them
- He taught 70 disciples not to forgive certain towns that would not accept the gospel message; instead they were to shake off the dust of the town from their feet (a huge insult)
- He told His disciples that “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained." (How can sins be retained if they are always forgiven?)
Paul – He did not forgive Alexander the Coppersmith; instead he condemned him
In Heaven – The saints under God's throne have not forgiven their murderers; instead they are constantly crying out for vengeance. (And they are in the presence of God, no longer sinning!)​

These include the “pillars” of the Christian faith like Moses, Samuel, David, and Elijah. God often rebukes people when they have done something wrong, but He never rebuked these men for these actions. In fact, He showed His support by validating their action with miracles and by direct words of praise and commendation in the pages of the Bible.

Unlike the modern American Christian teaching, there are many instances where God and God’s people do not forgive everyone.

 

[Lighthouse]

Lighthouse,

You didn't answer the questions I asked you. Would you, please?

If you're being honest with yourself and the scriptures you should have already seen that what Christ taught while on earth about forgiveness differs from that which Paul preached. And while that may be news to someone who has never heard of right division, this should not be new information to you. So when you see they differ, that they contradict one another, why is it that you still hold to Christ's words to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (Matthew 15:24 KJV) as He was a minister of the circumcision (Romans 15:8 KJV) when you know good and well that you are to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV) by considering what Paul says (2 Timothy 2:7 KJV)?

Paul did not teach different than Jesus on forgiveness.:nono:

If he did you should be able to post verses to prove so.

Who said anything about throwing out what Jesus said (as you say)? That sounds like something someone that opposes right division would imply. Rightly divide the word of truth, Lighthouse! All of the Bible is FOR our learning (Romans 15:4 KJV), but it's not all written directly TO us. Paul is the apostle of the Gentiles (Romans 11:13 KJV, 1 Timothy 2:7 KJV, 2 Timothy 1:11 KJV), given the dispensation of the gospel (1 Corinthians 9:17 KJV, the dispensation grace of God for you Gentiles (Ephesians 3:1-6 KJV). You are to follow Paul in doctrine 1 Corinthians 4:15-16 KJV, 1 Corinthians 11:1 KJV, 2 Timothy 2:2 KJV, 2 Timothy 2:7-8 KJV, to hold fast the form of sound words which thou hast heard of Paul~ Romans through Philemon (2 Timothy 1:13 KJV)~ which is written directly to the Body of Christ.

You are the one who says we are not to follow Jesus' words on forgiveness.