ECT This should start a decent discussion: Universal Atonement

LAL359

New member
Yes, I Started Watching And Stopped Immediately When I Saw The BBQ, That Is Propaganda To Start. Give Me DATA, Not Feel Good Christian "Videos"

And what may I ask is wrong about feeling good as a Christian??!! I LOVED the video. It excites me when I am reminded that "it" is not all about me. I have victory "in Christ". I have freedom "in Christ". I don't know about you but when I focus on how I am doing, in the disciplines of Christian living, how I am doing at resisting temptations etc. etc. it can be rather depressing. We seem to always come up short but "HELLO" are you listening?? Our eternal life, our "success" as Christians is NOT dependent on US! Christ took it all on Himself!! Hallelujah that makes me HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY. As some one that used to live in the frigid north, that whole illustration of crawling vs. driving on the ice is SO awesome. I would certainly encourage you to rethink your stance and watch the video or not I guess but for heaven's sake Let's feel good as Christians! This is GOOD NEWS!!
To any one else on this thread that hasn't taken the time to watch this latest video the tftn5280 posted WATCH it and find encouragement in this at times discouraging world. Thank you tftn5280!
 

TFTn5280

New member
And what may I ask is wrong about feeling good as a Christian??!! I LOVED the video. It excites me when I am reminded that "it" is not all about me. I have victory "in Christ". I have freedom "in Christ". I don't know about you but when I focus on how I am doing, in the disciplines of Christian living, how I am doing at resisting temptations etc. etc. it can be rather depressing. We seem to always come up short but "HELLO" are you listening?? Our eternal life, our "success" as Christians is NOT dependent on US! Christ took it all on Himself!! Hallelujah that makes me HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY. As some one that used to live in the frigid north, that whole illustration of crawling vs. driving on the ice is SO awesome. I would certainly encourage you to rethink your stance and watch the video or not I guess but for heaven's sake Let's feel good as Christians! This is GOOD NEWS!!
To any one else on this thread that hasn't taken the time to watch this latest video the tftn5280 posted WATCH it and find encouragement in this at times discouraging world. Thank you tftn5280!
That's pretty cool. Thanks!
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
Bah humbug (gotta be a killjoy in every crowd). How about if I give you both?



EDIT: No, actually this really disturbs me. First of all, it's not a "feel good Christian 'video.'" There's more substance in it than you've likely experienced in a lifetime. BUT, what if it were a feel good Christian video, would that make it bad? I am sick of dour Christian bickering about "DATA." Truth is, if it doesn't feel good, it's probably not the Good News!

i clicked on that too. i have videos and Christian picnics too. do i start with that ? when i see a link "advertising" before i see what it is saying i X it.
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
Bah humbug (gotta be a killjoy in every crowd). How about if I give you both?



EDIT: No, actually this really disturbs me. First of all, it's not a "feel good Christian 'video.'" There's more substance in it than you've likely experienced in a lifetime. BUT, what if it were a feel good Christian video, would that make it bad? I am sick of dour Christian bickering about "DATA." Truth is, if it doesn't feel good, it's probably not the Good News!

what if someone used another word besides "data" ? for me, i don't need a video of someone eating, folks at a picnic or "fluff" to hear God's Word. if you have something to say, say it. put what you know in YOUR words OR THE BIBLE. it's good that you're disturbed - :patrol:
 

TFTn5280

New member
what if someone used another word besides "data" ? for me, i don't need a video of someone eating, folks at a picnic or "fluff" to hear God's Word. if you have something to say, say it. put what you know in YOUR words OR THE BIBLE. it's good that you're disturbed - :patrol:

Okay, how about this? In Christ God proves that in his holiness he does not desire to be aloof from the fallen creature he loves. God’s holiness is so intolerant of sin that it will not allow him to stay separate from sinners. In the person of Christ his hatred for sin demands that he do something to address humanity’s alienation from God. His holy love is so fierce that he will not be satisfied until he has a consuming fire against sin that purifies and heals the sinner. God’s holiness and his compassion have never been at odds ~ the Good News of the Gospel being that we are loved, accepted, and cleansed not in spite of God’s holiness but because of it!

Blessings brother. I always (well usually) appreciate your encouragement. You are a model Christian,
 
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TFTn5280

New member
In fact, what is holiness? I for much of my life was stumped as to what it really meant. Here's why: the definitions of holiness that I most often encountered in church attendance, in my studies, and at university and seminary; and what other places I encountered it, were predominately ones of consecration: being set apart from all unrighteousness, being drawn near to the purposes of God, absolute otherness; you get the picture. While those definitions seemed to apply somewhat to me, they seemed wholly inadequate when speaking of God; for they seemed to make God dependent on creation to himself be Holy; for what is God in his absolute being set apart from, if not creation? What is there for him to draw near to him other than his creatures? What in eternity is he completely other than, when all I've ever been taught is that God is eternal and we're not? Those questions set me on a quest to discover what the holiness of God was really like.

Along the way I came across obscure definitions of holiness that did seem to suffice when plugged into the heart of God: awful or absolute moral perfection. For a while I could accept those concepts. Then I was introduced to Trinitarian theology through my studies at Fuller Theological Seminary, whose thrust, as I've told you, are the interpersonal relations of the Son with the Father and the Father with the Son as portrayed in the life of Jesus, and how those relations extend into the of perichoresis ~ the interaction ~ between and within the Trinity, and how they extend to include us via the work of the Holy Spirit.

Here is what I discovered: when reading Jesus, he seems to make clear that the only true interpretation of the Father is through the Son; nothing else will suffice to draw us into a true understanding of God as he really is. And indeed there is no knowledge of God except as revealed to us in the Father/Son relationship, not even things extrapolated from the Hebrew Scriptures; for in these latter days God has spoken to us most apprehensively through his Son. That is to say that God, as he really is, is only revealed by the Son.

Bam! Then it hit me: absolute moral perfection, i.e., holiness, is not to be discovered in and then defined by OT Law: Do this. Don't do that. But it is given definition by Jesus, as he relates to his Father in Love, Adoration, and Prayer; respect, righteousness, and fellowship. All things began to come together. Holiness in the heart of God is the love of the Father for the Son and visa verse. It is the respect they share for each other, the absolute harmony of their righteous wills. It is the beauty, the glory, the honor, THE COMMUNION we see displayed in their relations. It is their humility as revealed to us in the Son's condescension to dwell among us that revealed as well the true heart of the Father for creation through a servant's heart for humanity. And most emphatically it's a love so bonded, so bounded, so invasive, so compelling, SO INCLUSIVE that it drove them to the cross for the sake of those whom they mutually loved and willed to bring into their embrace.

In short, holiness is not assent to an absolutely untenable moral code, which can only produce an aw-ful experience of God. Holiness is that inner relationship of God. It is the practical application of that love as we live Jesus’ life, lived out in us through Christ in us the hope of Glory. It is Paul saying, "I, yet not I live but Christ ..."

Bam! a second epiphany. The "Holy" Spirit is the conduit of that mutual adoration -- Yes, proceeding from the Father to the Son, Yes, proceeding from the Son to the Father, Yes, proceeding from them both to us to include us in the reciprocity AND COMMUNION of that love.
 
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TFTn5280

New member
i clicked on that too. i have videos and Christian picnics too. do i start with that ? when i see a link "advertising" before i see what it is saying i X it.

GCI produces these videos. What is so terribly wrong with that? Thank God that someone is putting on something good and true about God in Jesus Christ and not the same old "Christian" drivel that you see everywhere around you.
 

TFTn5280

New member
i'm sorry for a little discouragement, i wasn't in the mood for a video. but if a couple complaints lead you to take your toys and go home . . . sorry again - :patrol:

You know, here's the thing: I have encouraged healthy discussion on this thread; I can take the heat substantively ~ but I only have so much patience for this ad hom stuff. The only criticism I've received on this thread is from lazies who HAVEN'T watched the videos, who HAVEN'T followed the thread, who AREN'T informed of what universal atonement even is. Why are you even here if not to sow discord? I actually think some people are finding this worth the work; that is, rather than ad hom sloth, they've discovered the effort is paying dividends. I invite you to grab a hoe, my friend, and pick a row, because the work we're doing here is worth the blisters, 'cause the weeds we're hoein' have been growin' a long time.
 
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LAL359

New member
In fact, what is holiness? I for much of my life was stumped as to what it really meant. Here's why: the definitions of holiness that I most often encountered in church attendance, in my studies, and at university and seminary; and what other places I encountered it, were predominately ones of consecration: being set apart from all unrighteousness, being drawn near to the purposes of God, absolute otherness; you get the picture. While those definitions seemed to apply somewhat to me, they seemed wholly inadequate when speaking of God; for they seemed to make God dependent on creation to himself be Holy; for what is God in his absolute being set apart from, if not creation? What is there for him to draw near to him other than his creatures? What in eternity is he completely other than, when all I've ever been taught is that God is eternal and we're not? Those questions set me on a quest to discover what the holiness of God was really like.

Along the way I came across obscure definitions of holiness that did seem to suffice when plugged into the heart of God: awful or absolute moral perfection. For a while I could accept those concepts. Then I was introduced to Trinitarian theology through my studies at Fuller Theological Seminary, whose thrust, as I've told you, are the interpersonal relations of the Son with the Father and the Father with the Son as portrayed in the life of Jesus, and how those relations extend into the of perichoresis ~ the interaction ~ between and within the Trinity, and how they extend to include us via the work of the Holy Spirit.

Here is what I discovered: when reading Jesus, he seems to make clear that the only true interpretation of the Father is through the Son; nothing else will suffice to draw us into a true understanding of God as he really is. And indeed there is no knowledge of God except as revealed to us in the Father/Son relationship, not even things extrapolated from the Hebrew Scriptures; for in these latter days God has spoken to us most apprehensively through his Son. That is to say that God, as he really is, is only revealed by the Son.

Bam! Then it hit me: absolute moral perfection, i.e., holiness, is not to be discovered in and then defined by OT Law: Do this. Don't do that. But it is given definition by Jesus, as he relates to his Father in Love, Adoration, and Prayer; respect, righteousness, and fellowship. All things began to come together. Holiness in the heart of God is the love of the Father for the Son and visa verse. It is the respect they share for each other, the absolute harmony of their righteous wills. It is the beauty, the glory, the honor, THE COMMUNION we see displayed in their relations. It is their humility as revealed to us in the Son's condescension to dwell among us that revealed as well the true heart of the Father for creation through a servant's heart for humanity. And most emphatically it's a love so bonded, so bounded, so invasive, so compelling, SO INCLUSIVE that it drove them to the cross for the sake of those whom they mutually loved and willed to bring into their embrace.

In short, holiness is not assent to an absolutely untenable moral code, which can only produce an aw-ful experience of God. Holiness is that inner relationship of God. It is the practical application of that love as we live Jesus’ life, lived out in us through Christ in us the hope of Glory. It is Paul saying, "I, yet not I live but Christ ..."

Bam! a second epiphany. The "Holy" Spirit is the conduit of that mutual adoration -- Yes, proceeding from the Father to the Son, Yes, proceeding from the Son to the Father, Yes, proceeding from them both to us to include us in the reciprocity AND COMMUNION of that love.

Thank you tftn5280 for sharing a bit of your personal journey that led you to the conclusions you are sharing on this thread. A journey that most of us who were raised in conservative, legalistic Christian churches can relate to. That discouragement with trying to "be" holy by simply bucking up and trying harder is what has led me to this site and specifically this thread (along with others) I am finding encouragement in delving into the truths to be found in Universal Atonement and the knowledge that "in Christ" I can not only be holy I can relax and get on with the business of living the life He designed for me without the burden of somehow "being" better on my own. Having been a Christian for 50 some years that's a lot of trying lol.
I am asking perhaps selfishly that you do not close this thread yet. Still learning. Thanks!
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
And what may I ask is wrong about feeling good as a Christian??!!
I LOVED the video. ...
Let's feel good as Christians!
This is GOOD NEWS!!

Thomas said:
In fact I'm closing this thread. Go be miserable without me.

There are dangers everywhere in the Christian walk... The problem is not solved in feeling good watching a video, or in being miserable and attacking those who do watch the video and feel good about it...

But what the above two quotes illustrate is the danger of feeling good as a central part of one's walk in Christ, because Thomas wants to build up a joyful approach to walking in Christ, and when someone throws cold water on his fervor, he gets discouraged and wants to walk away...

The simple fact is that how one feels, and the actions that one takes to feel good about one's self in their Christian walk are dangerous... The ice is thin, and for a moment, Thomas fell through it, and then jumped right back out, mind you...

The walk is not about fallen human emotional states... The Joy Christ gives is not about these at all, and indeed, these are the tools which the enemies of Christ masterfully manipulate to our destruction...

fwiw, I watched the 2nd video and did not like it... I still intend to re-watch the first... Christians do BBQ, no question, and videos cost money to produce, and inner peace can often be seen in outward joy... It can also be seen in sorrows...

Arsenios
 
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TFTn5280

New member
Thank you tftn5280 for sharing a bit of your personal journey that led you to the conclusions you are sharing on this thread. A journey that most of us who were raised in conservative, legalistic Christian churches can relate to. That discouragement with trying to "be" holy by simply bucking up and trying harder is what has led me to this site and specifically this thread (along with others) I am finding encouragement in delving into the truths to be found in Universal Atonement and the knowledge that "in Christ" I can not only be holy I can relax and get on with the business of living the life He designed for me without the burden of somehow "being" better on my own. Having been a Christian for 50 some years that's a lot of trying lol.
I am asking perhaps selfishly that you do not close this thread yet. Still learning. Thanks!

I'll answer both you and Arsenios at the same time. Thanks to both of you. You're both good and right. I did let my emotions get away with me last night. But I do believe in what I'm doing here. AND God did design us to be emotional creatures too. Perhaps Christ did whip stuffy religious types OUT of the temple and perhaps I did take my whip and go home from the same grubbers, but the truth is, we both did it through the agency of our emotions. Don't be so rational that you squelch that part of your soul. Jesus redeemed it too you know. Thanks for the encouragement, LAL, and thanks for the reminder, Arsenios. There's a filial thing going on here that we should all learn to appreciate,
 
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Arsenios

Well-known member
And what may I ask is wrong about feeling good as a Christian??!!

... for heaven's sake Let's feel good as Christians!

This is GOOD NEWS!!

The problem with "feeling good" as an "affirmation" of one's Christian walk is that the Cross-Walk wherein we follow Christ is not at all about "feeling good" but is instead exactly the opposite...

We are not instructed to fill a beautiful punch bowl with lovely and sweet liquid refreshment for all to drink of freely, only to discover that someone has dropped some dog droppings into it causing it to need to be discarded... We are discipled to take up suffering unto death daily, and in that walk which follows Christ, not only do dog-droppings in the punch-bowl not matter a whit, but neither does the punch bowl nor its sweet refreshment which soon turns bitter indeed...

I keep remembering Peter, warming himself at the fires of the murderers of our Lord, denying Christ thrice... Had he embraced the cold and scorned the fire, and been suffering wretchedly in body, in joy and thanksgiving, he would not have denied his Lord... That was to come later... All the Disciples were weak at that point... Save the Beloved John...

I mean, if feeling good is good in one's Christian walk, then what is one to do when one is feeling NOT-good? IF we are to follow Christ, then we are to deny self, and self denial is NOT feeling good, because denial of self is an act of violence upon the self and it feels anything BUT good...

Arsenios
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
I'll answer both you and Arsenios at the same time. Thanks to both of you. You're both good and right. I did let my emotions get away with me last night. But I do believe in what I'm doing here. AND God did design us to be emotional creatures too. Perhaps Christ did whip stuffy religious people OUT of the temple and perhaps I took my whip and went home, but the truth is, we both did it through the agency of our emotions. Don't be so rational that you squelch that part of your soul. Jesus redeemed it too you know. Thanks for the encouragement, LAL, and thanks for the reminder, Arsenios. There's a filial thing going on here that we should all learn to appreciate,

The MAD folks here are masters of personal attack, and in this they do not follow Christ, yet they purge from us our fallen emotional attachments to our self-affirmations... If we feel really good about our Christian walk and ride the emotions of those feel-goods, there is nothing, and I say nothing at all, like one of their floaters in one's personal feel-good punch-bowl... They are masters of deflating THAT balloon...

And you are a sensitive person, such that when your emotions become transformed, you will give empathy rather than expect sympathy, and from the inside of the empathy you give, you will find the means of giving the help that is needed...

Human emotions are fallen, and reflect past life experience, and at a a deep level they only look backward, and cannot see forward... So that people who live in them become pillars of salt... Knowing what to do with them, and doing it, is a part of the discipleship of self-denial Christ taught His Disciples... And has nothing, btw, to do with emotional repression, and everything to do with life transformation...

Much like the EXXON Valdiz, the clean-up of the emotional messes in which we find ourselves en-souped takes a long time, a lot of help, and great Grace... It is not a free-bee given by God, but is wrenched from us as we put our old man to death and embrace our Lord, both by degrees, the one at the expense of the other...

And yes, there is Light at the end of THAT tunnel!

Arsenios
 

TFTn5280

New member
The MAD folks here are masters of personal attack, and in this they do not follow Christ, yet they purge from us our fallen emotional attachments to our self-affirmations... If we feel really good about our Christian walk and ride the emotions of those feel-goods, there is nothing, and I say nothing at all, like one of their floaters in one's personal feel-good punch-bowl... They are masters of deflating THAT balloon...

And you are a sensitive person, such that when your emotions become transformed, you will give empathy rather than expect sympathy, and from the inside of the empathy you give, you will find the means of giving the help that is needed...

Human emotions are fallen, and reflect past life experience, and at a a deep level they only look backward, and cannot see forward... So that people who live in them become pillars of salt... Knowing what to do with them, and doing it, is a part of the discipleship of self-denial Christ taught His Disciples... And has nothing, btw, to do with emotional repression, and everything to do with life transformation...

Much like the EXXON Valdiz, the clean-up of the emotional messes in which we find ourselves en-souped takes a long time, a lot of help, and great Grace... It is not a free-bee given by God, but is wrenched from us as we put our old man to death and embrace our Lord, both by degrees, the one at the expense of the other...

And yes, there is Light at the end of THAT tunnel!

Arsenios

I'm glad you're on this thread, Arsenios...no matter how much I disagree with you.
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
I'm glad you're on this thread, Arsenios...no matter how much I disagree with you.

Irreligious of my ear-religion??

I hear you! :)

The Holy Virgin Cathedral in San francisco on Geary Street, built by St. John Maximovich whose relics repose there, is also called, in the Holy Tradition of the Orthodox Christian Faith, "The Joy of All Who Sorrow"...

The problem with riding our FALLEN human emotions is that they CHANGE... And they are vulnerable to demonic attack... Indeed, they are the means of demonic control of the fallen human condition...

What CAN a "Feel-Good Christian" DO when that very self-same Christian feels totally like rotting garbage, or worse? He is at risk to every emotional "Feel-Bad" that blows through his vestibule drawers...

So he keeps up as best he can, stays on top of things, trying to steer a course that is not too upsetting, and in the process becomes something of a control freak, and gets leveled every so often...

Well I too get leveled every so often... But when that happens, it is a cause of rejoicing for me, because it puts the spotlight on where I need to lift my cross in repentance from self... For me it is an opportunity to grow and transform... Even if not in knowing exactly HOW to do so, at least in knowing THAT I need to do so...

Can you imagine John the Baptist having emotional upset over the murmerings of the Pharisees? Or over what someone may have said? The only time he came even close was when Christ wanted to be Baptized BY him... And indeed, THAT is where we need to focus our emotions - On Christ - And not on human foibles, our own or other people's...

1Cor 4:9
For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last,
as it were appointed to death:
for we are made a spectacle unto the world,
and to angels, and to men.

4:16
Wherefore I beseech you,
be ye followers of me.


Arsenios
 

TFTn5280

New member
Irreligious of my ear-religion??
Can you imagine John the Baptist having emotional upset over the murmerings of the Pharisees? Or over what someone may have said? The only time he came even close was when Christ wanted to be Baptized BY him...

Yeah, and when he called them a brood of vipers...
 

Arsenios

Well-known member
Yeah, and when he called them a brood of vipers...

Do you think he was emotionally wrought saying that?

Or was he like the farmer with the fence post ah-whackin' his mule a lick???

Jes' a tryin' t'gitter aah 'tention...

Arsenios
 
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