ECT This should start a decent discussion: Universal Atonement

TFTn5280

TFTn5280

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Arsenios said:
Thank-you - It was a big AHA moment for me, and I was beginning to think that I was the only one who got it, or that perhaps I had gotten it wrong...



Penance properly understood CAN be a way of victory, and under this, flagellation only rarely if at all, and then NOT as punishment of the flesh, but as a counter to the pleasure impulse imparted by the demon of fornication, and normally not with a whip but with some counter imposition of pain that neutralizes the noesis of pleasure abiding in one's members... Paul spoke of it as the subduing of the body, and not as a shadow-boxer only striking the air...

But the point here is that because Salvation came in the flesh, Christ our God, we will find it in overcoming the tyranny of the flesh, because pleasure and pain die at death, and we are baptized into the Death of Christ, and are to conduct ourselves accordingly, which invokes the issue of Christian virtue entailing courage and steadfastness...



Mortification of the flesh is a feature of living a repentant life, and is an ongoing practice of the saints who live ascetic lives. Paul tells us we are to "mortify our members"... And Christ tells us that we are tot take the hard and straited Way of Salvation... He asked regarding John the Forerunner: "What did you come expecting to see? Soft and royal robes and cushions and sumptuous fare?" [at least words to that effect] "A reed shaken in the wind?" And I do not know if you have ever girt your loins in 1st century leathers, or worn a camel hair shirt... One of our very highly ascetic fathers, elder Joseph the Hesychast, tried wearing one... He did not last two days in it...



And the Revelation is Christ IN THE FLESH... THAT is God's Revelation of His Word and our Lord...



It cannot take that particular firm grip if we are still submitting ourselves to our flesh... There IS a mind of the flesh, and there IS a mind of the Spirit, and they are not co-equal...



Salvation is not a merely mental exercise... It is not merely an IDEA... It is an ontological condition of a soul in union with God and thereby making no provision for the flesh... That is why the very first word of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is: REPENT! It is through repentance that God saves us... For we are saved by God's Grace, through the Faith of Christ which disciples us to repent and be baptized, every one of us... And we know from Paul that we are Baptized into Christ in the Holy Spirit... Paul Himself baptized a few, though that was not his particular calling...




Satan WAS defeated at Calvary, but NOT in YOUR flesh, and not in MY flesh, but in the fleshly Body of our Lord alone... The victory over sin was Christ's bodily victory, and that is why we are BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST, because His is the ONLY Body in which sin has been overcome, and we in Him can then find our own victory...

But the Cross of Calvary will NOT hand us victory UNLESS we take up our own cross each and every day and follow Christ... It is called living a saved life, or a Christian life, which denies self and embraces union with our Lord in constant prayer without ceasing...

The only thing lacking in the sufferings of Christ for our sakes is our own sufferings for Him... And this is what Paul was "filling in", and it is what we are all called to do, for in this is the joining of our marriage to the Lamb of God...

In the world, you WILL find tribulation...

It is IN this tribulation that you will find union with God...

The Joy that is NOT of this world...

Arsenios
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Good post, Arsenios. The only thing I would ask you to consider is something a beloved professor used to stress in his theology classes: "The indicatives of grace always precede the imparatives of law." In order that we not be overwhelmed ~ and I mean undone ~ by the commandments of Scripture is in the knowledge of the certainty of who we are in Jesus Christ our Lord and Victor. Girded with that assurance ~ the power and surety afforded us by the Spirit of Christ himself ~ we are equipped to carry that cross each day. Apart from that assurance, it can but crush us under its weight.
 
Arsenios

Arsenios

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TFTn5280 said:
Good post, Arsenios. The only thing I would ask you to consider is something a beloved professor used to stress in his theology classes: "The indicatives of grace always precede the imparatives of law." In order that we not be overwhelmed ~ and I mean undone ~ by the commandments of Scripture is in the knowledge of the certainty of who we are in Jesus Christ our Lord and Victor. Girded with that assurance ~ the power and surety afforded us by the Spirit of Christ himself ~ we are equipped to carry that cross each day. Apart from that assurance, it can but crush us under its weight.
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We had a wonderful opportunity to test the idea right here just now on the efficacy of Rome's doctrine of overcoming sin by means of penance when I asked Chrysostom, who said he still is sinning, IF he confesses, is given a penance, and does the penance. And then, given yes to those three questions, I asked him IF he was overcoming the sins dealt with in that manner...

And so far he has not replied...

From the Orthodox point of view, there are some sins where some kind of penance is very beneficial... And especially if it is done as an intervention into the onset of the desire to do the sin... But it must be voluntary, and I suspect that most Catholics do not submit themselves voluntarily to their Priests should a penance be prescribed, and that the office of the Priest in the Latin Church has been significantly degraded... The ones I talk with seem to report, although I have not directly asked, but the seem to report that the old classical pre-Vatican II penances, say of a hundred Hail Marys etc, are simply no longer being given... I hope Chrysostom weighs in on this...

Because the problem does not disappear once the rebellion settles down and no one sees it any more... Overcoming sin as a way of life is a central tenet in Christian Salvation, in which IF one is not overcoming sin in one's own body, one is not being saved... This whole business of 'receiving and believing in' Christ's 'work' on the Cross as totally sufficient for our salvation such that we do not need to repent is fatal for the soul...

Arsenios
 
ttruscott

ttruscott

Well-known member
TFTn5280 said:
Chill out, no one's talking about universalism. (If you dunces would watch the video in my opening post, you would know that. Or, here's a novel idea: follow the thread and read the ten other times I've explained this!)

Blessings,
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I took the opportunity to say what I wanted to say - and I will not watch a video plug.

Do you have a difference between dunce and fool? Matthew 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

May I ask you step step back a bit, you're starting to smell smokey.
 
TFTn5280

TFTn5280

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ttruscott said:
I took the opportunity to say what I wanted to say - and I will not watch a video plug.

Do you have a difference between dunce and fool? Matthew 5:22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

May I ask you step step back a bit, you're starting to smell smokey.
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Good, I'm glad you've said what you wanted to say. This thread is for people who have educated themselves to the topic, the interview for thus is provided in the OP for their convenience. You do not desire to do that; hence you have nothing of substance to offer here. No, when I call you a dunce I mean you are ignorant of the content of this thread. Your refusal to rectify that further proves my observation. Whether you're a fool or not, is something you now have opportunity to demonstrate yourself. Good evening.
 
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jsjohnnt

jsjohnnt

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Watched the video, the one that is posted as a video, not a link to the video. My personal theology has been shaped, for the past 10 years, by Karl Barth (pronounced "Bart") as well as my own evangelical roots (I am 70 years old). Excellent video.

My only disagreement with Hunsinger, if I might be so arrogant, is this: he sees Barth as a theologian, I see him as a pastor. Hunsinger defines Barth's writings via "motifs," (positivism, objectivism, rationalism and the like) while I believe Barth reading scripture through the collective lens that

(1) set God apart from his human creation to the extent that man needed Christ as a mediator between God and man, that (2) Christ defined the character and nature of God, that
(3) God's sovereignty is responsible for the universal success (once and for all time) of the mission and ministry of the Cross, that
(4) God is sovereign (able to overcome) all things, even our own stupidity and prevailing illogic, as well as a sinful nature that is problematic as described in Rom 7:14 - 25), that
(5)man as a finite being cannot experience the vision of an infinite God or interpret His teachings (prophecies) without the help and influence of God (II Pet 1:20-21).

Barth believed that a systematic theology was a threat to the Sovereignty of God, because such theologies tell God, "We have it all figured out, now." So Barth wrote, "All [systematic] theologies are the inventions of man."

Barth is famous for his 14 volume "Church Dogmatics." Some argue that this work is a "systematic theology," when, in reality, it is a comprehensive dialectic discussion of four topics (the Doctirnes of The Word of God, the Doctrine of God, the Doctrine of Creation, and the Doctrine of Reconciliation). Barth did not use textual criticism or outside scholarly authority in his Dogmatics, nor, to arrive at his personal theology, again, depending on God's interaction with scripture, to give him the truth. At the same time, he was painfully aware that all PERCEIVED truth is provisional at best. And so Barth [also] wrote, "God work's in the proclamation of His word." In other words, this pastor believed that when we talk scripture, when we share the thoughts of the Living Word, when we sing his promises, when we debate and preach his concepts, then, God goes to work. More than this, because our understanding of truth is provisional, he encouraged all who would read the Bible, "to do so as if for the first time." Awesome advice.

In all of this, we see the pastor at work, not some rhetorical minded theologian, full of himself and his own revelation, confusing his vision for that of "God's."

If there are any pastor's on TOL, pulpit folks, they know full well that they can spend all week writing a Sunday sermon, hoping for a specific outcome, only to preach that sermon and find a any number of "lessons learned," parishioners telling them, "thanks for the lesson" when, in fact, you did not have THAT lesson in mind, at all. Well, that is God working in your proclamation.

Anyway, I appreciate Barth because he wrote as a pastor, not a theologian. Thanks for this thread.
 
jsjohnnt

jsjohnnt

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LAL359 said:
Thanks JSJOHNNT! Great post! Thanks for your insight to Barth's teachings/writings!
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The key, of course, is to make anyone's thoughts, in terms of "theology," our own. While I am excited to share Barth, he would very disappointed to hear that many regard themselves as "Barthian." He specifically ranted against that kind of talk. A very humble man.

Blackaby's "Experiencing God," Peterson's The Message, most 20th century "Romans" commentaries, the whole notion of ecumentalism (that we are all related to each other via our relationship with and in Christ), the writings of Dietrich Bonhoeffer, almost all of our modern day seminaries (whether Baptist, Assembly of God, Presby or Catholic), NT Wright , Jon Stott, Tom Small, I Howard Marshall, D.A. Carson (editor of Expositor's Bible Commentary on the Four Gospels), and many more are all influenced by this wonderful pastor

He is credited with the 1900's defeat of classic liberalism, a man who objected to the infusion of any form of philosophy, into one's developing theology, and, when once asked to sum up his 9000 page "Church Dogmatics," told a student, "Jesus loves me this I know, for the Bible tells me so." He was ridiculed for the his Christ-centered theology, seriously, criticized because it was "too focused on Christ."

Anyway, I will stop with all this. Just know he was credited by Christianity Today as being one of the five most influential theologians in church history outside of Paul, himself.
 
TFTn5280

TFTn5280

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A short "trailer" from the below interview... Elmer Colyer:

"We [Christians, theology professors, and pastors alike] often turn faith into one more human work. I come from the mid-west, it’s 18 below zero in Iowa today. My son was born on January 17th 28 years ago this Saturday. It was 28 below zero when he was born. So we get really cold temperatures back in the mid-west.

"(I’ll pick on Southern California.) There was a gentleman from Southern California visiting Wisconsin, and he was out on a lake and he heard the ice cracking, and being a really smart man from Southern California, he realized that if he got on his stomach and spread his weight out over the ice, he’d be less likely to go through the ice and freeze to death.

"So he got down on his belly and inched his way across the lake absolutely petrified that he was going to go through the ice at any moment and die. He got up on the shore, he brushed himself off, he heard a sound behind him, he looked back over across the lake and here comes a team of horses with a load of logs down onto the ice, across the ice and up the other side.

"These two individuals had a rather different experience of what it’s like to cross the ice in the middle of the winter in northern Wisconsin. The one had absolute faith in the quality of the ice – so much faith that he was willing to drive a team of horses across the ice. The other one’s faith was so weak that he was down on his belly praying any moment that he wouldn't go through the ice and drown. But you notice it’s not about the quality of their faith, is it? It’s about the quality of the ice. The ice held up the guy driving the team of horses, and it held up the man crawling across on his belly. Jesus Christ and the gospel are the ice. They’ll hold the entire universe and our lives, even in our moments of doubt."

Please watch the interview. There will be much to talk about.

Blessings,
 
jsjohnnt

jsjohnnt

New member
TFTn5280 said:
A short "trailer" from the below interview... Elmer Colyer:

"We [Christians, theology professors, and pastors alike] often turn faith into one more human work. I come from the mid-west, it’s 18 below zero in Iowa today. My son was born on January 17th 28 years ago this Saturday. It was 28 below zero when he was born. So we get really cold temperatures back in the mid-west.

"(I’ll pick on Southern California.) There was a gentleman from Southern California visiting Wisconsin, and he was out on a lake and he heard the ice cracking, and being a really smart man from Southern California, he realized that if he got on his stomach and spread his weight out over the ice, he’d be less likely to go through the ice and freeze to death.

"So he got down on his belly and inched his way across the lake absolutely petrified that he was going to go through the ice at any moment and die. He got up on the shore, he brushed himself off, he heard a sound behind him, he looked back over across the lake and here comes a team of horses with a load of logs down onto the ice, across the ice and up the other side.

"These two individuals had a rather different experience of what it’s like to cross the ice in the middle of the winter in northern Wisconsin. The one had absolute faith in the quality of the ice – so much faith that he was willing to drive a team of horses across the ice. The other one’s faith was so weak that he was down on his belly praying any moment that he wouldn't go through the ice and drown. But you notice it’s not about the quality of their faith, is it? It’s about the quality of the ice. The ice held up the guy driving the team of horses, and it held up the man crawling across on his belly. Jesus Christ and the gospel are the ice. They’ll hold the entire universe and our lives, even in our moments of doubt."

Please watch the interview. There will be much to talk about.

Blessings,
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Your account reminds me of a favorite scripture of mine, Romans 14:4: Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls, and he will be made to stand for the Lord is able to make him stand.

In the end, in this life, it is seldom if ever, all about us and our individual effort(s). We argue that, when it comes to faith, it is about the "faith of Christ" (Hab 2:4) that saves, not our faith. If this were not true, and it was our faith that saved us, would that be a perfected faith, and if not, to what degree would a required faith be? And if not the same degree for each and everyone, how does that effect the debate? And if our faith saves but is imperfect, does this not demand that Christ's faith comes to the rescue? And would he give more faith for the weak and less faith for the strong and all the faith needed for those who cannot understand and function as they were created? The more we try to make this about ourselves, the more of a mess it becomes.

But if He saves, the resolution is profoundly simple. If he saves, then it MUST be his faith in toto just as it is his life in toto, his cross in toto and his resurrection in toto. Either he saves or not. If he saves, it is none of ourselves, but it is the gift of God.
 
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TFTn5280

TFTn5280

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Arsenios said:
For we are saved by God's Grace, through the Faith of Christ which disciples us to repent and be baptized, ...
Arsenios
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This is a great introduction to my next commentary. Thanks Arsenios. Ephesians 2.1-10, 13:

2. 8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Basically all of the popular English translations are consistent with the above translation of 2.8, stating "... saved through faith"; however certain Greek manuscripts, mainly from the Byzantine region, contain a definite article directly preceding pistews, "faith"; rendering the phrase "... saved through the faith," the implication being that it is Christ's faith which saves, it being the gift of God, that faith being not even remotely our own ~ a rendering that seems quite in line with the passage as a whole. See below:

Ephesians 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through the faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. ... 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Romans 5. 8-10 is indicative of the same message. It is Christ who saves us, based and activated NOT on or by our faith moment or movement, BUT by his own reconciling work: 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

What a wonderful realization in this celebration season of his death and resurrection!

Blessings (Be sure to watch the video below),
 
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Simon Baker

Simon Baker

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TFTn5280 said:
A short "trailer" from the below interview... Elmer Colyer:

"We [Christians, theology professors, and pastors alike] often turn faith into one more human work. I come from the mid-west, it’s 18 below zero in Iowa today. My son was born on January 17th 28 years ago this Saturday. It was 28 below zero when he was born. So we get really cold temperatures back in the mid-west.

"(I’ll pick on Southern California.) There was a gentleman from Southern California visiting Wisconsin, and he was out on a lake and he heard the ice cracking, and being a really smart man from Southern California, he realized that if he got on his stomach and spread his weight out over the ice, he’d be less likely to go through the ice and freeze to death.

"So he got down on his belly and inched his way across the lake absolutely petrified that he was going to go through the ice at any moment and die. He got up on the shore, he brushed himself off, he heard a sound behind him, he looked back over across the lake and here comes a team of horses with a load of logs down onto the ice, across the ice and up the other side.

"These two individuals had a rather different experience of what it’s like to cross the ice in the middle of the winter in northern Wisconsin. The one had absolute faith in the quality of the ice – so much faith that he was willing to drive a team of horses across the ice. The other one’s faith was so weak that he was down on his belly praying any moment that he wouldn't go through the ice and drown. But you notice it’s not about the quality of their faith, is it? It’s about the quality of the ice. The ice held up the guy driving the team of horses, and it held up the man crawling across on his belly. Jesus Christ and the gospel are the ice. They’ll hold the entire universe and our lives, even in our moments of doubt."

Please watch the interview. There will be much to talk about.

Blessings,
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Within That Short Story Is A Myriad Of Faith. Faith, Confidence, Knowledge, Discretion, Repetition, KNOWING and Uncertainty. Nice.
 
Simon Baker

Simon Baker

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TFTn5280 said:
Here is my next contribution to this thread. If someone could help me post it in a more user friendly way, I would appreciate it. As before, I ask that you watch it and comment upon it. It starts out a little slow but finishes with a bang! I so appreciate your contribution to this thread as well. Thanks,

https://www.gci.org/_lib/playvideo....r+Colyer:+Our+Faith+Is+Weak,+But+He+Is+Strong
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Yes, I Started Watching And Stopped Immediately When I Saw The BBQ, That Is Propaganda To Start. Give Me DATA, Not Feel Good Christian "Videos"
 
TFTn5280

TFTn5280

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Simon Baker said:
Yes, I Started Watching And Stopped Immediately When I Saw The BBQ, That Is Propaganda To Start. Give Me DATA, Not Feel Good Christian "Videos"
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Bah humbug (gotta be a killjoy in every crowd). How about if I give you both?



EDIT: No, actually this really disturbs me. First of all, it's not a "feel good Christian 'video.'" There's more substance in it than you've likely experienced in a lifetime. BUT, what if it were a feel good Christian video, would that make it bad? I am sick of dour Christian bickering about "DATA." Truth is, if it doesn't feel good, it's probably not the Good News!
 
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jsjohnnt

jsjohnnt

New member
TFTn5280 said:
Here is my next contribution to this thread. If someone could help me post it in a more user friendly way, I would appreciate it. As before, I ask that you watch it and comment upon it. It starts out a little slow but finishes with a bang! I so appreciate your contribution to this thread as well. Thanks,

https://www.gci.org/_lib/playvideo....r+Colyer:+Our+Faith+Is+Weak,+But+He+Is+Strong
Click to expand...
No "systematic theology" written by Torrance for Torrance? Forcing those who read Torrance, at the time, to read all of his work? Sounds like a good thing to me. Ditto the Bible. It is hardly "systematic." Anyone ever wonder why? Me, I believe the fact that it is not "systematic," that it does not go from A to B to C to Z, forces us to read the whole thing. And because of its (the Bible's) complexity, we are forced to read it again and again and again.
And that, boys and girls, is by the design of the Great God Almighty. He insured the continued existence of this wonderful collection of book, laws, and letters throughout our time.

I have several "systematic theologies" in my library. The ones I have read, I will not read again, precisely because they are linear, organized, and comprehensive as to each successive point. The Bible, on the other, I am still reading, working to understand any number of "concepts" and the truths, knowing, when I am finished for the day, I must return for fear of having missed something critical. Again, this is all by the design of God.
 
TFTn5280

TFTn5280

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jsjohnnt said:
No "systematic theology" written by Torrance for Torrance? Forcing those who read Torrance, at the time, to read all of his work? Sounds like a good thing to me. Ditto the Bible. It is hardly "systematic." Anyone ever wonder why? Me, I believe the fact that it is not "systematic," that it does not go from A to B to C to Z, forces us to read the whole thing. And because of its (the Bible's) complexity, we are forced to read it again and again and again.
And that, boys and girls, is by the design of the Great God Almighty. He insured the continued existence of this wonderful collection of book, laws, and letters throughout our time.

I have several "systematic theologies" in my library. The ones I have read, I will not read again, precisely because they are linear, organized, and comprehensive as to each successive point. The Bible, on the other, I am still reading, working to understand any number of "concepts" and the truths, knowing, when I am finished for the day, I must return for fear of having missed something critical. Again, this is all by the design of God.
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Maybe Torrance learned that from Barth who learned that from Calvin who learned that from Paul. Ya think?

(Psst. They think Calvin was a systematic theologian too, you know)
 
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