things are different now...for me

[jamie]

Ok but Moses did allow for divorce which originally was not and Yahusha pegged him as changing it...

Moses wrote what was dictated to him by God.

 

[jeremysdemo]

Moses wrote what was dictated to him by God.

Paul says it was given by angels. Galatians 3:19

 

[jamie]

Paul says it was given by angels. Galatians 3:19

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions till the seed should come to whom the promise was made and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. (Galatians 3:19)

Who was the source of the law ordained by angels in the hand of a Mediator?

 

[jeremysdemo]

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions till the seed should come to whom the promise was made and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. (Galatians 3:19)

Who was the source of the law ordained by angels in the hand of a Mediator?

well the text does not say it was dictated to Moses by God as you said. :idea:

 

[jamie]

well the text does not say it was dictated to Moses by God as you said. :idea:

You mean as Moses said.

If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart and with all thy soul. (Deuteronomy 30:10)​

Whose commandments and whose statutes?

 

[jeremysdemo]

You mean as Moses said.

If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart and with all thy soul. (Deuteronomy 30:10)​

Whose commandments and whose statutes?

you see no difference in what you said to what Paul said? :idunno:

yes, you are getting warmer, the "voice" of the Lord gave them His commandments, Hebrews 12:19 which were also written in the book of the law being spoken of.

I hope you don't take our discussion the wrong way, I'm not trying to nit pick on you or anything...just food for thought. :idea:

 

[clefty]

I agree with that, in that gratitude of grace makes me desire to do good works. That is, however, very different from saying that works are required for salvation.

yes very different

more in line of the first love


Revelation 2:4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

when we first love someone we wish to do anything they ask...

we are no longer under the law...but stand on it as our foundation...its cornerstone is Yahusha...

our fruits reveal Whose we are...

 

[jamie]

yes, you are getting warmer, the "voice" of the Lord gave them His commandments, Hebrews 12:19 which were also written in the book of the law being spoken of.

I'm not sure what point you are making. We know the law was given through angels, no one has actually heard God's voice at any time.

The law was given through angels in the hand of a Mediator (Christ).

Is this the point you are making?

 

[jeremysdemo]

, no one has actually heard God's voice at any time.

Hebrews 12:19
And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

Deuteronomy 5:4,5
Yahweh spoke with you face to face on the mountain out of the midst of the fire, (I stood between Yahweh and you at that time, to show you the word of Yahweh: for you were afraid because of the fire, and didn't go up onto the mountain saying,

The law was given through angels in the hand of a Mediator (Christ).

Is this the point you are making?

before you said it was dictated to Moses by God.

the mediator in that sentence was Moses.

here is a translation that makes that more clear:

Galatians 3:19NLT
Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people

 

[jamie]

Galatians 3:19NLT
Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people

Moses is not identified as the mediator. Paul says there is only one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. Paul had understanding of the law.

The Living Bible, the NLT, the NIV are interpretive versions of scripture. The NIV says, "The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator." The NIV does not support the NLT interpretation of Moses as mediator.

The fact is Moses was not mediating between God and men in Paul's day. Paul did not regard Moses as the mediator of the law.

 

[jamie]

Deuteronomy 5:4,5
Yahweh spoke with you face to face on the mountain out of the midst of the fire, (I stood between Yahweh and you at that time, to show you the word of Yahweh: for you were afraid because of the fire, and didn't go up onto the mountain saying,

Ok, whenever someone speaks to you out of the midst of a fire don't jump to the conclusion that it is a physical being speaking to you. God is Spirit and spirit is invisible. As a human being if you stood nose to nose with God you would not see him.

No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (John 1:18)

Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. (John 6:46)​

I think we should give Jesus the benefit of the doubt when it comes to truth.

 

[IMJerusha]

Are you referring to the God who said I change not?

For I am the LORD, I change not, therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. (Malachi 3:6)​

Yup. God doesn't change but He can change His decisions and the course of events.

Where in the Torah does it say the priesthood was changed?

Wherefore say, "Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace and he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood because he was zealous for his God and made an atonement for the children of Israel." (Numbers 25:12-13)​

Are you saying God does not keep his word?

No, of course not. Everlasting, however, does not necessarily have to mean here on earth. Yeshua is our High Priest of the Order of Melchizedek. He wasn't a Levite. Therefore, there was a change.

Where does the Torah say that a man can be a sin sacrifice?
Israel's law required that a transgressor suffer the penalty for his or her transgression. The same is true in U.S. law. A person convicted of a legal transgression is not permited to appoint someone else to serve the convict's sentence.

Israel's law did not permit substitutionary sacrifice.

All foods were already clean but the Torah does not make scavengers clean.

I believe that the first mention of Mashiach is in Genesis 3:15. There's also this: "Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. After he has suffered, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities." Isaiah 53:10-11
Notice Whose Will allowed Yeshua to be a sin sacrifice. Apparently there was a change of Torah by God's Will.

And when God changed the priesthood, He changed the Law (Hebrews 7:11-12) And considering Mark 7:19, all foods were not already clean. They are now.

 

[IMJerusha]

I don't beleive Jesus modified the Torah.

I beleive the Torah was modified by men long before he came along, and was being abused/misused.

what he did was restore it to it's proper meaning. :idea: this upset the teachers of the day.

Ok, show me the Torah that Yeshua re-wrote/corrected/restored because just as Jamie stated, there is not mention in Torah of a man being allowed to be sacrificed for sin.

 

[IMJerusha]

hmmm...can you show me? I have heard it before, do you also "what enters the mouth cannot defile?"

I'm afraid I'm not understanding your post here. Exactly what are you asking me to show you?

 

[IMJerusha]

thanks for remembering I really had intended to focus more on that...as the world financial crises has a long history and I thought it would be of interest that it is scriptural...

Sure it's Scriptural. "For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs." 1 Timothy 6:10

say anything you like, and no I did not wish you to speak against anyone/thing...but understanding any financing of wars, debt slavery and coming economic collapses and the powers that be who have destroyed so much I thought you would say something at least...

to think understanding of scripture on all that reveals so much and could have prevented so much evil but then maybe that is not the plan...

its an issue with current muslim banks and its "global (t)errorism"

That cat is out of the evil bag, so to speak. That's why Yeshua came, to change aspects of things. We still have to contend with death. Courtesy of Yeshua, however, there's life after death for those who believe and call upon Him as Lord. I understand what you're saying. Your heart is in the right place.

 

[IMJerusha]

well the text does not say it was dictated to Moses by God as you said. :idea:

Yeah the "text" kinda does 2Timothy 3:16. Why did Moses write Torah down? As a witness against us sinners.

 

[jamie]

No, of course not. Everlasting, however, does not necessarily have to mean here on earth. Yeshua is our High Priest of the Order of Melchizedek. He wasn't a Levite. Therefore, there was a change.

There was a change in Judaism with regard to the priesthood for the assembly Jesus told his disciples that he would build. However, Jesus did not change one word of the Torah (the law).

The Book of the Law containing the judgments that would guide Israel as a nation was temporary. Paul explains the law was only until Christ came to his people (the Jews).

God sent Jesus to offer to the Jewish nation the kingdom of God. The Jewish leadership was less than receptive and they accused Jesus of sedition, of which the Roman authorities were not tolerant.

God through Jesus asked the Jews to repent and believe the gospel of the kingdom. The kingdom of God is not based on the obsolete Law of Moses, the kingdom of God is based on God's grace.

Jesus became a sacrifice for sin not within the context of Mosaic law but in the context of God's grace independent of the law.

The NT church of God is the true Judaism and extends to all entry into the kingdom of God.

 

[jamie]

well the text does not say it was dictated to Moses by God as you said. :idea:

And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD and rose up early in the morning and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars according to the twelve tribes of Israel. (Exodus 24:4)​

Moses wrote whose words?

 

[IMJerusha]

There was a change in Judaism with regard to the priesthood for the assembly Jesus told his disciples that he would build. However, Jesus did not change one word of the Torah (the law).

Hebrews 7:11-12 By necessity God changed the Torah. If the Law was not changed, then Yeshua could not have been the Holy Sacrifice for sin and a whole lot of Scripture is bogus. Well, we know that isn't true.

 

[jamie]

Hebrews 7:11-12 By necessity God changed the Torah. If the Law was not changed, then Yeshua could not have been the Holy Sacrifice for sin and a whole lot of Scripture is bogus. Well, we know that isn't true.

Nope, the Torah was unchanged. There a large number of scrolls in the various synagogues in the first century and Jesus nor anyone alse went around to all of the synagogues making pen changes in the Torah.

God changed the law by doing away with it. The law and the prophets were until John, since then the kingdom of God is preached. The Torah was about the kingdom of Israel, the NT is about the kingdom of God.

In that he saith a new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (Hebrews 8:13)​

That was written several years ago and now that covenant and that law is history. Gone. Done.