things are different now...for me

[jeremysdemo]

Yeah the "text" kinda does 2Timothy 3:16. Why did Moses write Torah down? As a witness against us sinners.

the text says quite clearly, and from the same writer might I add, that the law was given by angels to Moses.

yet, Jamie says the law was given to Moses by God.

So either Jamie is mistaken, or Paul was.

I prefer to side with the text over man, I know that puts me at odd with a lot of people, but if the text says the law was given to Moses by angels no big deal to me...now those whom speak otherwise it is they whom have to deal with the contradiction.

 

[jeremysdemo]

I don't beleive Jesus modified the Torah.

I beleive the Torah was modified by men long before he came along, and was being abused/misused.

what he did was restore it to it's proper meaning. this upset the teachers of the day.

Ok, show me the Torah that Yeshua re-wrote/corrected/restored

check the gospels, at every turn the Pharisee interpret the scriptures one way, and Jesus another.

1 good example, they were ready to stone the adulterer, but they were not following the law correctly in doing so (the man was not present or being accused with her).

another one, the picking of corn by the disciples on the sabbath.

the list goes on and on, I don't know how anyone can read the NT without noticing how Jesus restored the proper meaning to the Torah and implemented it correctly in the righteous Spirit.

Matthew 23:13
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

because just as Jamie stated, there is not mention in Torah of a man being allowed to be sacrificed for sin.

honestly I don't know what jamie is blammering on about, I've tried to make sense of her post but they contradict scripture too much for me to be able to do so.

 

[jamie]

honestly I don't know what jamie is blammering on about, I've tried to make sense of her post but they contradict scripture too much for me to be able to do so.

That's extremely easy to rectify. What verse in the Torah allows a person to be executed on behalf of another person?

Let's see your proof.

 

[jamie]

the text says quite clearly, and from the same writer might I add, that the law was given by angels to Moses.

The law was given to Moses through angels on whose authority? Were the angels acting on their on authority or God's authority?

With whom does the buck stop?

And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD and rose up early in the morning and builded an altar under the hill, and twelve pillars according to the twelve tribes of Israel. (Exodus 24:4)​

Whose words did Moses write? The words of angels?

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels... (Colossians 2:18)​

 

[clefty]

I'm afraid I'm not understanding your post here. Exactly what are you asking me to show you?

sorry I was rushed and didn't clarify

I should have posted

can you show me where kosher laws are nullified? I have heard this before from people who use the text "what enters the mouth cannot defile"...matt 15:11

I am more inclined to this thinking

http://www.hebrewroot.com/Articles/mar_7 and rom_10.htm

I also remember that these laws are not unto salvation and that I do it because I wish to so out of gratitude and desire to understand...

and keep the temple clean...

 

[clefty]

honestly I don't know what jamie is blammering on about, I've tried to make sense of her post but they contradict scripture too much for me to be able to do so.

I am getting lost in here too at times...lol

 

[clefty]

That's extremely easy to rectify. What verse in the Torah allows a person to be executed on behalf of another person?

Let's see your proof.

the torah allows an animal to be executed on behalf of the person...

the whole torah is an act of substitution...had we not fallen there would be no need at all for any of this...we could speak and learn face to face...certainly no need for sacrifices...

all these sacrifices, temple, its priests and ceremonial laws (not the 10 moral ones) had to be set into place to restore and correct the relationship between Yah and man...it is all a substitution from direct relationship...

ITS ALL SYMBOLIC

sacrifices were never successful in making us perfect again or repaying our debt...but our obedience in doing so merely makes us appear contrite to satisfy the Lawgiver...but the breach separation death remained...

these ceremonial laws were an opportunity to show obedience and fealty and faithfulness to Yah not to make us actually holy, sacrosanct, or perfect...we need Yahusha for that...

I have come to understand that Yah had to sacrifice His own "best" in order to restore the breach caused by sin...the Passover lamb was merely protection in the process of separation from SIN from its death...from the land of Egypt and its foreign gods...

Sin has a curse of death, a result of disobedience being "not of god" and only the obedient are spared and His son was the only perfect obedient sacrifice that was then restored to life again

every sacrifice was merely symbolic foreshadowing to the time the perfect sacrifice would be made by Yah Himself...these animal sacrifices were then allowed instead of the expected person...which was ironically and ultimately only God Himself...to restore us...

 

[jamie]

I'll ask my question again. What verse in the Torah allows a person to be executed on behalf of another person?

I hope you are not calling Jesus Christ an animal, that would be disrespectful.

We have already covered the topic of animal sacrifices.

What verse in the Torah allows a person to be executed on behalf of another person?

And for the sake of discussion let's think of Jesus as a person, not as a literal lamb? Ok?

What verse in the Torah allows a person to be executed on behalf of another person?

Post 182.

 

[clefty]

I'll ask my question again. What verse in the Torah allows a person to be executed on behalf of another person?

you are missing all of it...

sin is death yes? how did torah provide any from being executed?

by my last count all who lived during torah excepting Enoch and Moses were executed...no person was executed on behalf of another

sin had all executed...

I hope you are not calling Jesus Christ an animal, that would be disrespectful.

symbolically He is

We have already covered the topic of animal sacrifices.

have we?

What verse in the Torah allows a person to be executed on behalf of another person?

And for the sake of discussion let's think of Jesus as a person, not as a literal lamb? Ok?

What verse in the Torah allows a person to be executed on behalf of another person?

Post 182.

again...all were executed by sin...except Enoch and Moses...and Eliyah too but he wasn't in Torah...

but if the curse of sin were not removed even Enoch and Moses and Eliyah would have to return to die...maybe that's why they appeared to Him to encourage Him HIS mission...lol

and incidentally, even after His perfect sacrifice, sin, the law, and death remains for all of us...(unless He comes soon and we are found worthy, then death does not remain for us)

 

[jeremysdemo]

That's extremely easy to rectify. What verse in the Torah allows a person to be executed on behalf of another person?

Let's see your proof.

that's another thing I don't understand.

why are you asking me for that verse when we never discussed that topic?

we couldn't even seem to agree or get past the whole law fiasco and whom Moses got it from.

the simple solution would have been, "Oh, that is what the scripture says, my mistake."

I think we would have gotten a lot further with that admission.

 

[jeremysdemo]

I am getting lost in here too at times...lol

I'm sorry clefty, I know this is your thread and you do seem to have gotten lost to the side of the discussion...

so things are different now...you are stepping outside of your comfort zone and going into some uncharted waters...

Be of good faith and good cheer that the Father will look after you and continue to guide you safely.

 

[clefty]

I'm sorry clefty, I know this is your thread and you do seem to have gotten lost to the side of the discussion...

my thread? ha...no worries mate no need to apologize I understand how things are on this interweb thingy...

I am here to learn and/or spread the good word...if things get entertaining its a bonus

so things are different now...you are stepping outside of your comfort zone and going into some uncharted waters...

Be of good faith and good cheer that the Father will look after you and continue to guide you safely.

I fully expect uncharted waters...corrections and reproofs...

may Yah be praised...and yes be our guide

 

[jamie]

why are you asking me for that verse when we never discussed that topic?

We didn't, you did.

honestly I don't know what jamie is blammering on about, I've tried to make sense of her post but they contradict scripture too much for me to be able to do so.

I simply explained what I was blammering about.

 

[jeremysdemo]

We didn't, you did.

I discussed the topic about a person to be executed on behalf of another person?

man my memory must really be failing me these days...

and it's odd because it used to be very sharp.

 

[jamie]

I discussed the topic about a person to be executed on behalf of another person?

That's what the blammering was about. It was about the law.

 

[clefty]

We didn't, you did.



I simply explained what I was blammering about.

Please note that the last supper was not the passover meal as yahusha was the passover lamb to have the curse of sin pass the obedient over -

Passover is not a sin offering and does not do away with sin merely it's consequences - celebrating it merely protects us from sins curse- a memorial to yah helping us leave the state of sin

 

[jamie]

Please note that the last supper was not the passover meal as yahusha was the passover lamb to have the curse of sin pass the obedient over -

Passover is not a sin offering and does not do away with sin merely it's consequences - celebrating it merely protects us from sins curse

Exactly. Jesus' Passover is not related to Mosaic law. It is the basis for God's grace with regard to life.

 

[clefty]

Exactly. Jesus' Passover is not related to Mosaic law. It is the basis for God's grace with regard to life.

Now yahusha has his own passover? unrelated to the one in Torah? Wow

You do know that grace does not remove sin yes? Sin is still present-

And we are still doomed to suffer and die -

When sin itself will be removed finally is after final judgement -the act of obedience is for this final passover at judgement -

understanding grace we wish to obey to be passed over

 

[jeremysdemo]

That's what the blammering was about. It was about the law.

well it's a good thing I wasn't blammering on.... :idunno:

 

[IMJerusha]

sorry I was rushed and didn't clarify

I should have posted

can you show me where kosher laws are nullified? I have heard this before from people who use the text "what enters the mouth cannot defile"...matt 15:11

Mark 7:19

I am more inclined to this thinking

http://www.hebrewroot.com/Articles/mar_7 and rom_10.htm

I have no problem with people keeping kosher. If they feel they are led to, there is blessing in it for them.

I also remember that these laws are not unto salvation and that I do it because I wish to so out of gratitude and desire to understand...

and keep the temple clean...

This is true.