ECT The will of God vs the will of man

[MennoSota]

That is a ridiculous notion.

My beliefs are formed by the truth in the Bible.
I agree with what the Bible teaches.

You being so arrogant to think that you can have the Bible agree with your beliefs is foolishness.
You do not allow the Bible to teach you the truth, you only look for proof texts to support your preconceived beliefs.

My belief is that the God of Creation by ordinance of His will either says yes or no to our choices. We cannot ever act outside of the ordained will of God even when we disobey God. When we disobey it is because God allows our disobedience as it fits within His greater will.
Only a fool believes that his own will can override God's will.

 

[Faither]

My belief is that the God of Creation by ordinance of His will either says yes or no to our choices. We cannot ever act outside of the ordained will of God even when we disobey God. When we disobey it is because God allows our disobedience as it fits within His greater will.
Only a fool believes that his own will can override God's will.

Could I ask you for some background on how you came to these conclusions ? We're you taught this by a gifted teacher , are you a gifted teacher , or by some other avenue ?

 

[genuineoriginal]

My belief is that the God of Creation by ordinance of His will either says yes or no to our choices. We cannot ever act outside of the ordained will of God even when we disobey God. When we disobey it is because God allows our disobedience as it fits within His greater will.

Your belief is certainly not Biblical.

Only a fool believes that his own will can override God's will.

It is funny that the people that reject free-will are the only ones that think that having free-will makes man more powerful than God.

 

[MennoSota]

My belief is that the God of Creation by ordinance of His will either says yes or no to our choices. We cannot ever act outside of the ordained will of God even when we disobey God. When we disobey it is because God allows our disobedience as it fits within His greater will.
Only a fool believes that his own will can override God's will.

Your belief is certainly not Biblical.

[emoji102]
Do you suggest that your weak willed, incapable god, is the god of scripture? Perhaps your god is day dreaming or relieving himself. Or maybe he is away on a trip, or asleep and needs to be awakened. (1 Kings 18:27)
Do you imagine there is no sovereign God who reigns over the affairs of men?

 

[genuineoriginal]

[emoji102]Do you suggest that your weak willed, incapable god, is the god of scripture?

The God of scripture is not weak willed nor incapable.
I believe in a God that is strong enough to grant free-will to mankind.

Do you imagine there is no sovereign God who reigns over the affairs of men?

You seem to have a false understanding of what "sovereign" means and what "reigns" means.

 

[MennoSota]

The God of scripture is not weak willed nor incapable.
I believe in a God that is strong enough to grant free-will to mankind.


You seem to have a false understanding of what "sovereign" means and what "reigns" means.

You have an idol image of a god who places you on a pedastal and says "as you wish." You call that sovereignty because he doesn't keep your corrupt nature in check. He just let's you run free. God says you are illegitimate.
Hebrews 12:5-11
[5]And have you forgotten the encouraging words God spoke to you as his children? He said, “My child, don’t make light of the lord’s discipline, and don’t give up when he corrects you.
[6]For the lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes each one he accepts as his child.”
[7]As you endure this divine discipline, remember that God is treating you as his own children. Who ever heard of a child who is never disciplined by its father?
[8]If God doesn’t discipline you as he does all of his children, it means that you are illegitimate and are not really his children at all.
[9]Since we respected our earthly fathers who disciplined us, shouldn’t we submit even more to the discipline of the Father of our spirits, and live forever?
[10]For our earthly fathers disciplined us for a few years, doing the best they knew how. But God’s discipline is always good for us, so that we might share in his holiness.
[11]No discipline is enjoyable while it is happening—it’s painful! But afterward there will be a peaceful harvest of right living for those who are trained in this way.

 

[genuineoriginal]

You have an idol image of a god who places you on a pedastal and says "as you wish."

You are quite delusional, as are all those that deny that God gave us free-will.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.​

 

[MennoSota]

You are quite delusional, as are all those that deny that God gave us free-will.

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.​

Do you notice God's Sovereignty in election within 2 Thessalonians 2? The chapter really knocks the wind out of your sails and reveals how you abuse scripture to fit your own thinking. Your actions are similar to what Satan did when he tried to tempt Jesus. A couple sentences out of context is the policy of a person pushing a false theology. You have proven yourself to teach a false theology.
2 Thessalonians 2:1-17
[1]Now, dear brothers and sisters, let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him.
[2]Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.
[3]Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed—the one who brings destruction.
[4]He will exalt himself and defy everything that people call god and every object of worship. He will even sit in the temple of God, claiming that he himself is God.
[5]Don’t you remember that I told you about all this when I was with you?
[6]And you know what is holding him back, for he can be revealed only when his time comes.
[7]For this lawlessness is already at work secretly, and it will remain secret until the one who is holding it back steps out of the way.
[8]Then the man of lawlessness will be revealed, but the Lord Jesus will kill him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by the splendor of his coming.
[9]This man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles.
[10]He will use every kind of evil deception to fool those on their way to destruction, because they refuse to love and accept the truth that would save them.
[11]So God will cause them to be greatly deceived, and they will believe these lies.
[12]Then they will be condemned for enjoying evil rather than believing the truth.
[13]As for us, we can’t help but thank God for you, dear brothers and sisters loved by the Lord. We are always thankful that God chose you to be among the first to experience salvation—a salvation that came through the Spirit who makes you holy and through your belief in the truth.
[14]He called you to salvation when we told you the Good News; now you can share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[15]With all these things in mind, dear brothers and sisters, stand firm and keep a strong grip on the teaching we passed on to you both in person and by letter.
[16]Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal comfort and a wonderful hope,
[17]comfort you and strengthen you in every good thing you do and say.

 

[Faither]

Could I ask you for some background on how you came to these conclusions ? We're you taught this by a gifted teacher , are you a gifted teacher , or by some other avenue ?

Bumped for a reply from mennosota .

 

[genuineoriginal]

Do you notice God's Sovereignty in election within 2 Thessalonians 2? The chapter really knocks the wind out of your sails and reveals how you abuse scripture to fit your own thinking. Your actions are similar to what Satan did when he tried to tempt Jesus. A couple sentences out of context is the policy of a person pushing a false theology. You have proven yourself to teach a false theology.

You are the one ignoring the majority of scripture which teaches about how God deals with mankind using the free-will that He gave us in order to hold on to your delusion that God is too weak to handle mankind having free-will.

 

[Faither]

You are the one ignoring the majority of scripture which teaches about how God deals with mankind using the free-will that He gave us in order to hold on to your delusion that God is too weak to handle mankind having free-will.

How about you GO ? Do you have a background that would lend credence to your statements ? How and who were you taught by , or influenced ?

 

[MennoSota]

You are the one ignoring the majority of scripture which teaches about how God deals with mankind using the free-will that He gave us in order to hold on to your delusion that God is too weak to handle mankind having free-will.

Funny, I have read the Bible cover to cover and not once did God say he gave us free-will. He does, however, tell us on multiple occasions that he chose (read 2 Thessalonians 2 once more), he elected and he predestined. It's actually WRITTEN in the Bible [emoji33] (shocking and dismaying to you as that may be)!
I'm sorry to pop the balloon of your image of god (your idol). It is tough for you when it gets deflated.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Funny, I have read the Bible cover to cover and not once did God say he gave us free-will.

There are a lot of things God gave us that He did not state in the Bible.

 

[MennoSota]

Bumped for a reply from mennosota .

Faither, I have you on ignore so I don't often look at comments from you.
I explained my background in another post (perhaps different thread).
I was raised as a free-will Mennonite. What Mennonites encourage, however, is the personal reading of scripture. I kept reading it and observing all the places where God says He chooses, elects and predestines sinners to be adopted as redeemed children of God. I observed that God was the active cause agent. I had to then wrestle with what I was taught all my life and what I was observing in scripture. I started attending a Baptist church in Minneapolis where, low and behold, there were these "particular" Baptists teaching in Sunday School and from the pulpit. I would pepper the Sunday School teacher with all the verses I now get thrown at me. He patiently answered them all by looking at the entire context of the passages and also bringing other passages to light. My teachers name was Thomas R Shreiner...look him up. The pastor of the Baptist church was John Piper...look him up. I challenged both these men regarding the teaching I had grown up with. They explained their view of scripture and encouraged me to keep reading scripture and observing what it is saying. It took a number of years of earnest study before I realized that someone might label me a calvinist rather than a Mennonite. God has this wonderful way of bringing people unto your path to sharpen and correct. I am grateful for the providential guidance of God to lead me to Bethlehem Baptist in Minneapolis.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Deuteronomy 11:26-28 26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; 27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day: 28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.​

Determinism is God setting up the consequences for different sets of actions.
Free-will is being able to choose which set of actions you will engage in.

 

[MennoSota]

There are a lot of things God gave us that He did not state in the Bible.

So you just chuck the Bible aside and go with your gut feeling as your argument. If you're going to resort to relativism and post-modernism as you argument, then you have just acknowledged that your argument is a philosophy and not biblical.
I have said all along that free-will is a philosophy and now you confirm it.
Thank you.

 

[MennoSota]

Deuteronomy 11:26-28 26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse; 27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day: 28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.​

Determinism is God setting up the consequences for different sets of actions.
Free-will is being able to choose which set of actions you will engage in.

You've just sited the Mosaic Law laid out for the nation of Israel. The purpose of the Law is to condemn sinners. It never provides grace.
Again, I point out that choosing a snickers rather than a milky way does not equal free-will. It equals latitude within the will of God. Your will is never, will never and cannot ever be free from God and His Sovereign will. If it were possible then you would be god and the creator would be your slave.

 

[Faither]

Faither, I have you on ignore so I don't often look at comments from you.
I explained my background in another post (perhaps different thread).
I was raised as a free-will Mennonite. What Mennonites encourage, however, is the personal reading of scripture. I kept reading it and observing all the places where God says He chooses, elects and predestines sinners to be adopted as redeemed children of God. I observed that God was the active cause agent. I had to then wrestle with what I was taught all my life and what I was observing in scripture. I started attending a Baptist church in Minneapolis where, low and behold, there were these "particular" Baptists teaching in Sunday School and from the pulpit. I would pepper the Sunday School teacher with all the verses I now get thrown at me. He patiently answered them all by looking at the entire context of the passages and also bringing other passages to light. My teachers name was Thomas R Shreiner...look him up. The pastor of the Baptist church was John Piper...look him up. I challenged both these men regarding the teaching I had grown up with. They explained their view of scripture and encouraged me to keep reading scripture and observing what it is saying. It took a number of years of earnest study before I realized that someone might label me a calvinist rather than a Mennonite. God has this wonderful way of bringing people unto your path to sharpen and correct. I am grateful for the providential guidance of God to lead me to Bethlehem Baptist in Minneapolis.

What Mennonite community were you raised in ? I raised my family in Millersburg Oh . Most of the people I knew and employed were either Mennonite or Amish .

 

[MennoSota]

What Mennonite community were you raised in ? I raised my family in Millersburg Oh . Most of the people I knew and employed were either Mennonite or Amish .

Southwestern Minnesota around Windom. Great farm country.

 

[genuineoriginal]

You've just sited the Mosaic Law laid out for the nation of Israel. The purpose of the Law is to condemn sinners.

No, that is not the purpose of the Law.
If the purpose of the Law is to condemn sinners, then God was evil for giving the Law to His chosen people.

It never provides grace.

I never said it does.
Grace is God looking with favor upon someone that pleases Him.

Again, I point out that choosing a snickers rather than a milky way does not equal free-will.

Of course having the ability to choose Snickers instead of Milky Way equals free-will.

It equals latitude within the will of God.

No, it equals God giving free-will to mankind.

Your will is never, will never and cannot ever be free from God and His Sovereign will.

That is like stating that your will is never free from the laws of the country you live in.
However, free-will is the ability to choose to obey the laws of the country you live in or to choo

If it were possible then you would be god and the creator would be your slave.

I find it impossible to understand how you are coming up with this kind of statement.

God giving you the free-will ability to choose whether you will love Him and whether you will obey Him does not make you god nor does it make God your slave.