ECT The will of God vs the will of man

[Cross Reference]

Though God may use His ways and means to cause man to be willing, as was the case with Jona, and he was already in God's camp living in the promises of God. When considering man's will for his own life, nowhere in scripture can we find God going against mans own "freewill" will to choose for himself, "whom he will serve"..

 

[MennoSota]

Though God uses methods to cause man to be willing, as was the case with Jona, and he was already in God's camp living in the promises of God, when considering man's will for his life, nowhere in scripture can we find God going against mans will..

False.
We see God stopping Balaam in his tracks.
We see God stopping Saul/Paul in his tracks.
We see God stopping the King of Assyria in his tracks.
We see God determining the affairs of men throughout scripture.
CR, you are demonstrably wrong.

 

[Cross Reference]

False.
We see God stopping Balaam in his tracks.
We see God stopping Saul/Paul in his tracks.
We see God stopping the King of Assyria in his tracks.
We see God determining the affairs of men throughout scripture.
CR, you are demonstrably wrong.

Perhaps you missed my edited post. Lets try again:

"Though God may use His ways and means to cause man to be willing, as was the case with Jona, and he was already in God's camp living in the promises of God. When considering man's will for his own life, nowhere in scripture can we find God going against mans own "freewill" will to choose for himself, "whom he will serve".."

 

[MennoSota]

Perhaps you missed my edited post. Lets try again:

"Though God may use His ways and means to cause man to be willing, as was the case with Jona, and he was already in God's camp living in the promises of God. When considering man's will for his own life, nowhere in scripture can we find God going against mans own "freewill" will to choose for himself, "whom he will serve".."

Again, I point you to the conversion of the terrorist we now call the Apostle Paul. Paul was on his way to kill Christians with that agenda as his will. God stopped him in his tracks.
I point you to St Augustine who was living a rich kid party life until God stopped him in his tracks.
The Bible states so very clearly that "no one seeks after God, not even ONE." What this means is that, contrary to your claim, God crushes mans "free-will" every single time that he saves a human from their wretched existence.
CR, you are entirely wrong in your assertion and the Bible condemns your man-centered philosophy. It removes God's grace and attempts to pull God off the throne. You should be ashamed of yourself, but instead you will proudly fight to declare yourself king of your pond. (You remind me of Yertle the Turtle.)

 

[Cross Reference]

Again, I point you to the conversion of the terrorist we now call the Apostle Paul. Paul was on his way to kill Christians with that agenda as his will. God stopped him in his tracks.
I point you to St Augustine who was living a rich kid party life until God stopped him in his tracks.
The Bible states so very clearly that "no one seeks after God, not even ONE." What this means is that, contrary to your claim, God crushes mans "free-will" every single time that he saves a human from their wretched existence.
CR, you are entirely wrong in your assertion and the Bible condemns your man-centered philosophy. It removes God's grace and attempts to pull God off the throne. You should be ashamed of yourself, but instead you will proudly fight to declare yourself king of your pond. (You remind me of Yertle the Turtle.)

READ MY LIPS!! God never goes against the will of any man when that man 'demands' to control his own PERSONAL life; a "his way or the highway" mentality. Paul doesn't fit that bill!!! He was off doing the will of his Jewish handlers! In the case of some God attempted to persuade HIS way and if they refused, GOD simply rejected them. Judas easily to mind as the best example. And then there was the rich young ruler and the whole Jewish nation!!

Still in doubt? Think ADAM! He was the first case that testifies to my being correct! Cain would be the next!. Question: Why did God receive Abel's sacrifice over Cain's when God could have controlled the whole scene? God could have caused Cain to love his brother. Why didn't God do that? What was God after from Cain, Cain wouldn't give Him?

OMT: God never interphered with Paul's murderous raids, did He? And when you say that is correct think "Predestination" as in God chose Paul before the foundation of the world to preach to the gentiles. Got it? Good! Now when do you suppose God "decreed" the gift of faith TO Paul?

 

[MennoSota]

READ MY LIPS!! God never goes against the will of any man when that man 'demands' to control his own PERSONAL life; it's his way or the highway mentality. Paul doesn't fit that bill!!! He was off doing the will of his Jewish handlers! In the case of some God attempted to persuade HIS way and if they refused, GOD simply rejected them. Judas easily to mind as the best example. And then there was the rich young ruler and the whole Jewish nation!!

Still in doubt? Think ADAM! He was the first case that testifies to my being correct!

READ MY LIPS, every man demands to control his personal life. You are doing so right now.
God must choose to utterly crush the rebellion in your heart. He must actively break you down to nothing and expose your pride as vile and corrupt.
Read the Bible. God says "NO ONE SEEKS GOD, NOT EVEN ONE."
What do you not understand when God tells you this? How blind to the gospel must you be to completely ignore what God tells you and then claim something he doesn't tell you.
God would be just in condemning all humanity to eternal damnation. But, God chooses to be merciful to those whom he wills to be merciful. You CANNOT merit God's good favor. You are/were a utterly DEAD man. Show me how a dead man chooses.

 

[Cross Reference]

READ MY LIPS, every man demands to control his personal life. You are doing so right now.
God must choose to utterly crush the rebellion in your heart. He must actively break you down to nothing and expose your pride as vile and corrupt.
Read the Bible. God says "NO ONE SEEKS GOD, NOT EVEN ONE."
What do you not understand when God tells you this? How blind to the gospel must you be to completely ignore what God tells you and then claim something he doesn't tell you.
God would be just in condemning all humanity to eternal damnation. But, God chooses to be merciful to those whom he wills to be merciful. You CANNOT merit God's good favor. You are/were a utterly DEAD man. Show me how a dead man chooses.

You first sentence is presumptuous.

What dead man??!!

You CANNOT merit God's good favor.

Mary did? [that is one] Want more?

Read a different Bible. Romans 3:10 isn't saying that but referring to this:

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good. God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God." Psalm 53:1-4 (KJV)

Why would God bother to look down if man COULD not seek Him/do righteously?

It also reads "Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Gone back??!! Gone back from what??!! Righteous perhaps??!!AND None doeth good??? Do you mean that they used to do good and now none does? WAKE UP!

 

[MennoSota]

You first sentence is presumptuous.

What dead man??!!

Every person who has sinned and thus become dead in their trespasses and sins. How many times must I point out Ephesians 2:1 and yet you remain ignorant?

Mary did? [that is one] Want more?

We already addressed this. Mary found favor because God chose her, not because she was inherently good. In fact, we read how she exasperated Jesus at the wedding in Cana.

Read a different Bible. Romans 3:10 isn't saying that but referring to this:

"The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good. God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God." Psalm 53:1-4 (KJV)

Why would God bother to look down if man COULD not seek Him/do righteously?

God looks upon man and chooses to be gracious and merciful to whom he wills. He does so because he can

It also reads "Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." Gone back??!! Gone back from what??!! Righteous perhaps??!!AND None doeth good??? Do you mean that they used to do good and now none does? WAKE UP!

As a dog returns to its vomit...

 

[Cross Reference]

I have to believe this is for you,. . . . personally:

July 18th

The mystery of believing

"And he said, Who art Thou, Lord?" Acts 9:5.

By the miracle of Redemption Saul of Tarsus was turned in one second from a strong-willed, intense Pharisee into a humble, devoted slave of the Lord Jesus.

There is nothing miraculous about the things we can explain. We command what we are able to explain, consequently it is natural to seek to explain. It is not natural to obey; nor is it necessarily sinful to disobey. There is no moral virtue in obedience unless there is a recognition of a higher authority in the one who dictates. It is possibly an emancipation to the other person if he does not obey. If one man says to another—‘You must,’ and ‘You shall,’ he breaks the human spirit and unfits it for God. A man is a slave for obeying unless behind his obedience there is a recognition of a holy God. Many a soul begins to come to God when he flings off being religious, because there is only one Master of the human heart, and that is not religion but Jesus Christ. But woe be to me if when I see Him I say—‘I will not.’ He will never insist that I do, but I have begun to sign the death-warrant of the Son of God in my soul. When I stand face to face with Jesus Christ and say—‘I will not,’ He will never insist; but I am backing away from the re-creating power of His Redemption. It is a matter of indifference to God’s grace how abominable I am if I come to the light; but woe be to me if I refuse the light (see John 3:19–21).

Oswald Chambers


"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." John 3:19-21 (KJV)

 

[preacherman57]

Though God may use His ways and means to cause man to be willing, as was the case with Jona, and he was already in God's camp living in the promises of God. When considering man's will for his own life, nowhere in scripture can we find God going against mans own "freewill" will to choose for himself, "whom he will serve"..

Num 22:38 And Balaam said unto Balik, Lo, I am come unto thee: have I now any power at all to say anything? The word that God putteth in my mouth, that shall I speak.
Did not Balaam want to, was it not his "free will" to curse Israel? Yet, God enforced His will over Balaam's will

Rom 9:19...For who hath resisted His will?

Num 23:8
How shall I curse whom God hath not cursed? Or how shall I defy whom the Lord hath not defied?

Deut 2:30 But Sihon, king of Heshbon, would not let us pass by him: for the Lord thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliever him into thy hand.

Josh 2:25 For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might destroy them utterly...

1Sam 2:25...Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the Lord would slay them.

1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets..

Isa 63:17 O Lord, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear?

Ps 105:25 He turned their heart to hate His people..

Pro 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.

Pro 19:21 There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless, the councle ( purpose) of the Lord, that shall stand.

Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: He turneth it whithersoever He will.

2Chr 10 : 1-15
vs 15 So the king hearkened not unto the people: for the cause was of God...

See, Evangelicals believe lies. As usual, you make a statement that has no biblical foundation, you cannot show any verses that validate your statement and you believe what you want to believe.
Your biggest problem is that you deny that God is sovereign. Oh, you people like to say that God is "in control." Being in control is nowhere close to describing God's Sovereignty. You like to say God "allows" things. Again, denying that God is sovereign.
God being sovereign must mean that He is sovereign over every part of His creation, including man.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed (As God regards man) as nothing.: and He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay ( hinder, prevent, alter) His hand, or say unto Him, What doest thou. ( No person can question God or falsely accuse Him of anything. God is not accountable to man or has to answer any questions)

Psa 115:3 But our God is in heaven: He hath done whatsoever He hath pleased

Psa 135:6 Whatsoever the Lord pleased, that did He in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.

God is not a gentleman, a kindly grandfather figure who " defers" to man's imaginary free will. God does as He has purposed and all people are subject to what God has willed. God has never asked for or needed man's "permission" to do whatever He has purposed to do.

Eph 1:11....being predestinated according to the purpose of Him WHO WORKETH ALL ( ALL MEANS ALL) THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL.

Rev 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil His will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Sent from my LG-M327 using Tapatalk

 

[Cross Reference]

Num 22:38 And Balaam said unto Balik, Lo, I am come unto thee: have I now any power at all to say anything? The word that God putteth in my mouth, that shall I speak.
Did not Balaam want to, was it not his "free will" to curse Israel? Yet, God enforced His will over Balaam's will

Rom 9:19...For who hath resisted His will?

Num 23:8
How shall I curse whom God hath not cursed? Or how shall I defy whom the Lord hath not defied?

Deut 2:30 But Sihon, king of Heshbon, would not let us pass by him: for the Lord thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliever him into thy hand.

Josh 2:25 For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might destroy them utterly...

1Sam 2:25...Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the Lord would slay them.

1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets..

Isa 63:17 O Lord, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear?

Ps 105:25 He turned their heart to hate His people..

Pro 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.

Pro 19:21 There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless, the councle ( purpose) of the Lord, that shall stand.

Pro 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: He turneth it whithersoever He will.

2Chr 10 : 1-15
vs 15 So the king hearkened not unto the people: for the cause was of God...

See, Evangelicals believe lies. As usual, you make a statement that has no biblical foundation, you cannot show any verses that validate your statement and you believe what you want to believe.
Your biggest problem is that you deny that God is sovereign. Oh, you people like to say that God is "in control." Being in control is nowhere close to describing God's Sovereignty. You like to say God "allows" things. Again, denying that God is sovereign.
God being sovereign must mean that He is sovereign over every part of His creation, including man.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed (As God regards man) as nothing.: and He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay ( hinder, prevent, alter) His hand, or say unto Him, What doest thou. ( No person can question God or falsely accuse Him of anything. God is not accountable to man or has to answer any questions)

Psa 115:3 But our God is in heaven: He hath done whatsoever He hath pleased

Psa 135:6 Whatsoever the Lord pleased, that did He in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.

God is not a gentleman, a kindly grandfather figure who " defers" to man's imaginary free will. God does as He has purposed and all people are subject to what God has willed. God has never asked for or needed man's "permission" to do whatever He has purposed to do.

Eph 1:11....being predestinated according to the purpose of Him WHO WORKETH ALL ( ALL MEANS ALL) THINGS AFTER THE COUNSEL OF HIS OWN WILL.

Rev 17:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil His will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Sent from my LG-M327 using Tapatalk

Every example you offer reveals what I wrote be true if you would read what wrote again, for the first time. All that you posted are examples of people who already had a relationship with God either for Him or against Him..

 

[nikolai_42]

Though God may use His ways and means to cause man to be willing, as was the case with Jona, and he was already in God's camp living in the promises of God. When considering man's will for his own life, nowhere in scripture can we find God going against mans own "freewill" will to choose for himself, "whom he will serve"..

This is not a rhetorical or argumentative question - can a goat freely choose to become a sheep? If so, why would it? Your statement seems to have God simply using the Holy Spirit to test "what is" rather than accomplish what He wills to be. So the separation of sheep and goats done by Christ at the end of the age is just more revealing of who is (and always has been) with God and who is (and always has been) against Him. Can a leopard change his spots? Why would it even think it needs to?

 

[Cross Reference]

This is not a rhetorical or argumentative question - can a goat freely choose to become a sheep? If so, why would it? Your statement seems to have God simply using the Holy Spirit to test "what is" rather than accomplish what He wills to be. So the separation of sheep and goats done by Christ at the end of the age is just more revealing of who is (and always has been) with God and who is (and always has been) against Him. Can a leopard change his spots? Why would it even think it needs to?

No. God was hoping for what He wanted it to be from Adam. His "will" could not interfere in this if He expected the right results. Adam had to be free to exercise his own freewill which he did. Adam let Him down by the choice he made. But then God suspected Adam might, took responsibilty for it and provided a way for man, Adam's progeny, to be restored. Of course we know that provision didn't actualize itself for 4000 yrs. . .cf Romans 8:20 KJV.

 

[nikolai_42]

No. God was hoping for what He wanted it to be from Adam. His "will" could not interfere in this if He expected the right results. Adam had to be free to exercise his own freewill which he did. Adam let Him down by the choice he made. But then God suspected Adam might, took responsibilty for it and provided a way for man, Adam's progeny, to be restored. Of course we know that provision didn't actualize itself for 4000 yrs. . .cf Romans 8:20 KJV.

Irrespective of what was restricting (or not restricting) Adam at the beginning, would someone who is not born of God even want to be born of God? If the freedom to choose (or not choose God) is really that open and free, then what assurance does God have that the new heavens and new earth (wherein dwelleth righteousness) will not be so (re)tainted by man's decision to stray? If Adam - who was called a son of God (Luke 3:38) - would take another's counsel and depart from God, then it is either the indeterminate, free (irrespective of nature) choice that is the ground of decision or it is something immutable that governs that decision. Again...even allowing Adam was utterly free and without being tied to what he knew was right (and presumably was so wired), the fall demonstrates that something beyond man needs to be that which is the determinant if man is to be made everlastingly holy.

So it seems to me that what you propose is essentially God "kicking the can down the road" (so to speak) and hoping that eventually man will make the right choice. Yes...Christ has been given, but as free as a goat may be to choose Christ, why would he?

 

[Cross Reference]

Irrespective of what was restricting (or not restricting) Adam at the beginning, would someone who is not born of God even want to be born of God?

Go no further becasue God did NOT restrict anyone. Kindly start there and get your thinking off on the right track.

 

[nikolai_42]

Go no further becasue God did NOT restrict anyone. Kindly start there.

It may not have been worded properly, but that was my intent. To say that whether or not God restricted Adam doesn't change my post (I actually assumed you were saying God didn't restrict Adam at all).

 

[Cross Reference]

It may not have been worded properly, but that was my intent. To say that whether or not God restricted Adam doesn't change my post (I actually assumed you were saying God didn't restrict Adam at all).

That is exactly what I wrote I "hoped" you would understand. You might even believe God decreed Adam's subjection to his fleshly desires with the hope of him overcoming them not unlike what Jesus did and was glorified as the result.

 

[nikolai_42]

That is exactly what I wrote I "hoped" you would understand. You might even believe God decreed Adam's subjection to his fleshly desires with the hope of him overcoming them not unlike what Jesus did and was glorified as the result.

Remember...Adam didn't just follow fleshly desires. He rejected the command of God. He took the counsel of one who called God a liar. If Adam really was subject to fleshly desires, why were they there in the first place? He was in Eden, after all. If Adam is given the choice to choose who his master will be, by being subject to something, he really has no such free choice.

EDIT : It seems your whole position rests on nature not dictating action or choice. That man's freedom means he has the power to choose against his proclivities. In terms of action, maybe. But in terms of the heart can he?

 

[Cross Reference]

Remember...Adam didn't just follow fleshly desires. He rejected the command of God.

You can only suggest that. In actuality He DID follow his "fleshly desires" which the serpent used to persuade, his "gifted" freewill being the venue to excuse himself before God. That is a fact labeled by religionists as rebellion. . . I don't believe so. He was simply without the necessary Heavenly "allegiance" [at his disposal] to overcome the adversary of his soul. Everything that could have helped Adam laid outside himself. He didn't seek it when he should have.



Note how Adam "passed the buck".

 

[nikolai_42]

You can only suggest that. In actuality He DID follow his "fleshly desires" which the serpent used to persuade, his "gifted" freewill being the venue to excuse himself before God. That is a fact labeled by religionists as rebellion. . . I don't believe so. He was simply without the necessary Heavenly "allegiance" [at his disposal] to overcome the adversary of his soul. Everything that could have helped Adam laid outside himself. He didn't seek it when he should have.



Note how Adam "passed the buck".

See...this is where I think you are contradicting yourself. You originally have to have Adam choosing God without regard to anything tempting him. In other words, he chooses God regardless of anything that influences him (external or internal). That would be the only way the choice could be properly "free" in the way you seem to have described it. Now you have said there was something missing in him - something that he required to be able to choose God freely. That he didn't seek it when he should have begs the question - why not? If the choice is always to be free, then God cannot intervene until Adam asks him. So why would he do so if he is being led away by his own lusts? He doesn't have the allegiance in himself, he has desires and is following them. Why (and when) should he break out of the mindset that doesn't question his own desires?