Cross Reference
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NONSENSE! That is NOT what I wrote or even suggested.
Lets cut to the chase: Adam was subjected to "Vanity". I gave you the verse you now ignore. Have you ever dealt with your "vain thinking". Who wins out???? and why???
ECT The will of God vs the will of man
- Thread starter Cross Reference
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NONSENSE! That is NOT what I wrote or even suggested.
Lets cut to the chase: Adam was subjected to "Vanity". I gave you the verse you now ignore. Have you ever dealt with your "vain thinking". Who wins out???? and why???
nikolai_42
Well-known member
If the strength of God's hope is just that He hopes we will choose Him, then our hope in salvation can not rise above that :
Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 6:17-20
Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:
Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;
Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 6:17-20
Cross Reference
New member
Sorry. I don't have the patience for chasing rabbits. Have a nice day.
Cross Reference
New member
August 1st
Something more about his ways
He comes where He commands us to leave.
"When Jesus had made an end of commanding His disciples, He departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities." Matthew 11:1.
If when God said ‘Go,’ you stayed, because you were so concerned about your people at home, you robbed them of the teaching and preaching of Jesus Christ Himself. When you obeyed and left all consequences to God, the Lord went into your city to teach; as long as you would not obey, you were in the way. Watch where you begin to debate and to put what you call duty in competition with your Lord’s commands. ‘I know God told me to go, but then my duty was here’; that means you do not believe that Jesus means what he says.
He teaches where He instructs us not to.
“Master, … let us make three tabernacles.”
Are we playing the spiritual amateur providence in other lives? Are we so noisy in our instruction of others that God cannot get anywhere near them? We have to keep our mouths shut and our spirits alert. God wants to instruct us in regard to His Son, He wants to turn our times of prayer into mounts of transfiguration, and we will not let Him. When we are certain of the way God is going to work, He will never work in that way any more.
He works where He sends us to wait.
“Tarry ye … until …” Wait on God and He will work, but don’t wait in spiritual sulks because you cannot see an inch in front of you! Are we detached enough from our own spiritual hysterics to wait on God? To wait is not to sit with folded hands, but to learn to do what we are told.
These are phases of His ways we rarely recognize.
Oswald Chambers
Something more about his ways
He comes where He commands us to leave.
"When Jesus had made an end of commanding His disciples, He departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities." Matthew 11:1.
If when God said ‘Go,’ you stayed, because you were so concerned about your people at home, you robbed them of the teaching and preaching of Jesus Christ Himself. When you obeyed and left all consequences to God, the Lord went into your city to teach; as long as you would not obey, you were in the way. Watch where you begin to debate and to put what you call duty in competition with your Lord’s commands. ‘I know God told me to go, but then my duty was here’; that means you do not believe that Jesus means what he says.
He teaches where He instructs us not to.
“Master, … let us make three tabernacles.”
Are we playing the spiritual amateur providence in other lives? Are we so noisy in our instruction of others that God cannot get anywhere near them? We have to keep our mouths shut and our spirits alert. God wants to instruct us in regard to His Son, He wants to turn our times of prayer into mounts of transfiguration, and we will not let Him. When we are certain of the way God is going to work, He will never work in that way any more.
He works where He sends us to wait.
“Tarry ye … until …” Wait on God and He will work, but don’t wait in spiritual sulks because you cannot see an inch in front of you! Are we detached enough from our own spiritual hysterics to wait on God? To wait is not to sit with folded hands, but to learn to do what we are told.
These are phases of His ways we rarely recognize.
Oswald Chambers
genuineoriginal
New member
God never told Paul that he had to stop trying to serve God.
God merely told Paul that he was acting against God by persecuting Christians.
The choice of whether to serve God or not was still left up to Paul's free will.
genuineoriginal
New member
The Bible states that you can merit God's favor.
Where is that ever stated by Paul?
Acts of the Apostles 9:1-6
[1]Meanwhile, Saul was uttering threats with every breath and was eager to kill the Lord’s followers. So he went to the high priest.
[2]He requested letters addressed to the synagogues in Damascus, asking for their cooperation in the arrest of any followers of the Way he found there. He wanted to bring them—both men and women—back to Jerusalem in chains.
[3]As he was approaching Damascus on this mission, a light from heaven suddenly shone down around him.
[4]He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul! Saul! Why are you persecuting me?”
[5]“Who are you, lord?” Saul asked.And the voice replied, “I am Jesus, the one you are persecuting!
[6]Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
Doesn't seem like much of a choice does it.
What about Balaam who was paid to curse Israel and God would not let Balaam do so. At every will filled attempt by Balaam, God stopped him in his tracks.
How about that willful Jonah who tried to run away and then attempted suicide to thwart God's will, but God caused Jonah to do God's will anyway.
The foolish notion of free-will is utterly rejected by God in scripture.
Not unto salvation.
God may bless the elect woman or man who obeys, but God may also bring that obedient woman or man into the valley of the shadow of death by God’s sovereign ordinance. Was Job was meriting God's favor when God ordained the loss of wealth, family and health upon Job? God does what He pleases to do, according to His good counsel. The Bible tells us that all our works are as filthy rags. Tell me what a filthy rag merits?
genuineoriginal
New member
Here:
Romans 6:16 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? |
Sure it does.
Paul had the same ability to choose to obey as the two sons in the parable:
Matthew 21:28-31 28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard. 29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went. 30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not. 31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you. |
God only prevented Balaam from cursing the children of Israel in His name.
He did not prevent Balaam from advising Balak in how to get the children of Israel to offend God and put themselves under a curse.
Numbers 31:16 16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. |
God did not frog-march Jonah into Nineveh, Jonah walked there and did as commanded with his own free will.
The consequences of God-given free-will is a fundamental truth that is found in the Bible from the beginning of Genesis to the end of Revelation.
genuineoriginal
New member
Yes, unto salvation.
In fact, the Bible shows that you cannot attain salvation (eternal life) without meriting God's favor first.
Job underwent a trial of his faith.
1 Peter 1:6-9 6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: 8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: 9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. |
Holding on to his faith in the face of losing his wealth, family, and health was a choice Job made of his own free-will, and that is how he passed the trial.
You missed the preceding verses in your desperate desire to take a phrase out of context.
Isaiah 64:4-5a 4 For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him. 5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: |
God is not forcing people to choose Him or reject Him.
God is searching for those people that choose Him of their own free-will.
Malachi 3:16-18 16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name. 17 And they shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. 18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not. |
You misconstrued choice with free-will. Does a slave have free-will even though he makes a choice? No. He is constrained by the one to whom he is indebted. Read all of Romans 6 so that you might understand. Then read Romans 7, 8 and 9 to further cement the weakness of your argument.
Romans 6:1-23
[1]Well then, should we keep on sinning so that God can show us more and more of his wonderful grace?
[2]Of course not! Since we have died to sin, how can we continue to live in it?
[3]Or have you forgotten that when we were joined with Christ Jesus in baptism, we joined him in his death?
[4]For we died and were buried with Christ by baptism. And just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glorious power of the Father, now we also may live new lives.
[5]Since we have been united with him in his death, we will also be raised to life as he was.
[6]We know that our old sinful selves were crucified with Christ so that sin might lose its power in our lives. We are no longer slaves to sin.
[7]For when we died with Christ we were set free from the power of sin.
[8]And since we died with Christ, we know we will also live with him.
[9]We are sure of this because Christ was raised from the dead, and he will never die again. Death no longer has any power over him.
[10]When he died, he died once to break the power of sin. But now that he lives, he lives for the glory of God.
[11]So you also should consider yourselves to be dead to the power of sin and alive to God through Christ Jesus.
[12]Do not let sin control the way you live; do not give in to sinful desires.
[13]Do not let any part of your body become an instrument of evil to serve sin. Instead, give yourselves completely to God, for you were dead, but now you have new life. So use your whole body as an instrument to do what is right for the glory of God.
[14]Sin is no longer your master, for you no longer live under the requirements of the law. Instead, you live under the freedom of God’s grace.
[15]Well then, since God’s grace has set us free from the law, does that mean we can go on sinning? Of course not!
[16]Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.
[17]Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you wholeheartedly obey this teaching we have given you.
[18]Now you are free from your slavery to sin, and you have become slaves to righteous living.
[19]Because of the weakness of your human nature, I am using the illustration of slavery to help you understand all this. Previously, you let yourselves be slaves to impurity and lawlessness, which led ever deeper into sin. Now you must give yourselves to be slaves to righteous living so that you will become holy.
[20]When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the obligation to do right.
[21]And what was the result? You are now ashamed of the things you used to do, things that end in eternal doom.
[22]But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life.
[23]For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.
You neglect the glorious election of God in 1 Peter 1:1-5, which shows your argument to be utterly fallacious.
1 Peter 1:1-5
[1]This letter is from Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ.I am writing to God’s chosen people who are living as foreigners in the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia.
[2]God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ.May God give you more and more grace and peace.
[3]All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is by his great mercy that we have been born again, because God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. Now we live with great expectation,
[4]and we have a priceless inheritance—an inheritance that is kept in heaven for you, pure and undefiled, beyond the reach of change and decay.
[5]And through your faith, God is protecting you by his power until you receive this salvation, which is ready to be revealed on the last day for all to see.
Now turn to Ephesians 2:1-10 which nails the coffin on your false claim. Look specifically at verse 9 and then repent.
Ephesians 2:1-10
[1]Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins.
[2]You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil—the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.
[3]All of us used to live that way, following the passionate desires and inclinations of our sinful nature. By our very nature we were subject to God’s anger, just like everyone else.
[4]But God is so rich in mercy, and he loved us so much,
[5]that even though we were dead because of our sins, he gave us life when he raised Christ from the dead. (It is only by God’s grace that you have been saved!)
[6]For he raised us from the dead along with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms because we are united with Christ Jesus.
[7]So God can point to us in all future ages as examples of the incredible wealth of his grace and kindness toward us, as shown in all he has done for us who are united with Christ Jesus.
[8]God saved you by his grace when you believed. And you can’t take credit for this; it is a gift from God.
[9]Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it.
[10]For we are God’s masterpiece. He has created us anew in Christ Jesus, so we can do the good things he planned for us long ago.
genuineoriginal
New member
If you think there is a significant difference, you are mistaken.
genuineoriginal
New member
Yes, the proof is the actions of Onesimus, the runaway slave of Philemon.
genuineoriginal
New member
You seem to have been taught to misread the words of Peter.
Try reading the rest of the book.
Ephesians 2:8 is twisted enough in good translations, but the translation you used is probably the worst one I have seen for talking away the meaning of the verse.
Whom Philemon could either require him back as a slave or release him from slavery. The will was all with Philemon, not with Onesimus. Onesimus was not free.
Romans 6 tells you that we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. There is no free-will.
Free-will philosophy argues that man is greater than God and nullifies God's will by virtue of mans greater and superior will. That is the only way by which man could possibly have free-will.
Once again, you mistake God's ordinance of yes or no to your choices as being free-will. It is not. You are bound by the sovereign ordinance of God over every affair in your life.
The entire Bible agrees with me. All of Peter's writings as well as all others. You must cherry pick sentences to make your argument.
genuineoriginal
New member
Onesimus chose to flee from slavery with his own free-will and chose to return with his own free-will.
genuineoriginal
New member
That is a ridiculous notion.
My beliefs are formed by the truth in the Bible.
I agree with what the Bible teaches.
You being so arrogant to think that you can have the Bible agree with your beliefs is foolishness.
You do not allow the Bible to teach you the truth, you only look for proof texts to support your preconceived beliefs.
genuineoriginal
New member
Why would you think that God giving man free-will makes man greater than God?