The US wouldn't be in such a mess if it were Christian

[meshak]

"Republicanchick" is expressing nostalgia for a period in American history that never existed!

George Washington: - never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his extensive personal correspondence
- championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion.
- appointed John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) to become an army chaplain despite petitions from other chaplains for his dismissal
- on his deathbed, Washington uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.

John Adams: - "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"

Thomas Jefferson: - "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
- "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

James Madison: -"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

Benjamin Franklin: - "I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."

Thomas Paine: "All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

The Treaty of Tripoli: - passed by the U.S. Senate in 1797
- read in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

Abraham Lincoln: - "The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."

Jesus says His followers are not of the world. People who claim to be a Christian yet get involved with politics don't know their own faith.

The reality is that most so called true and saved Christians are deeply involved with the politics.

True Christians ought to stay out of politics.

Politics are not of Jesus.

 

[Lon]

"Republicanchick" is expressing nostalgia for a period in American history that never existed!

George Washington: - never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his extensive personal correspondence
- championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion.
- appointed John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) to become an army chaplain despite petitions from other chaplains for his dismissal
- on his deathbed, Washington uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.

John Adams: - "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"

Thomas Jefferson: - "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
- "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

James Madison: -"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."

Benjamin Franklin: - "I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies."

Thomas Paine: "All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit."

The Treaty of Tripoli: - passed by the U.S. Senate in 1797
- read in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

Abraham Lincoln: - "The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."

Quote mining aside, there are many of these same Presidents that expressed Christian ideals as well. Some of these are quote mined very much out of context, so are dishonest.

You can Google any one of these men's religious views rather easily.

For instance: George Washington was not only a member of his church, he was also a councilman and asked soldiers to fast and pray to God on a day Congress laid out for it. See here His stately letter to Indians regarding their instruction: "You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do every thing they can to assist you in this wise intention; and to tie the knot of friendship and union so fast, that nothing shall ever be able to loose it."

John Adams' quotes including the treaty of Tripoli were written to appease Muslims who were attacking American ships and history recognizes it as a weakness, a caving-in, to pirates. To redress this as a quote-mine, is inept at best, and dubious by moderation, in attempts by atheists.

I can go on and on, but quote mining the Presidents by atheists has always been an exercise in lying, most often of purpose, which makes it truly evil. It is sad that anyone would feel the need for this kind of unethical platform. I suppose it is politics, but we try not to vote for the ones that are so obvious about it. I'm not sure if you are doing this on purpose or ignorance, I just lift it up in the proper light it deserves.

 

[zoo22]

Was this meant for a different thread?

She's been having a problem getting enough oxygen. Probably the idiot liberals (which means ALL of them) are hogging it. Typical liberal censorship.

 

[zoo22]

Yeah, so much for that pesky thing referred to as freedom of (and freedom from) religion ...

Well, this is coming from someone who prays to Ronald Reagan.

Ronald Reagan, if you are in Heaven (or even if still in Purgatory)

Save this country!!! ​

Reagan

hear us from Purgatory or Heaven

and save this nation

So it's a real ... um... particular sort of religion/politics swamp that she's thrashing around in.

 

[Tinark]

The US is supposed to be a Christian nation.

:rotfl:

It's just a wanna be

and most of its residents don't really wanna be. There is no fear of God in the US. That's b/c most people adhre to the heretic Luther's diabolical notion of eternal security, otherwise known as Once Saved Always saved. Where does it say that in the Bible?

But it does say quite a bit about t he fear of God, quite a bit about eternal punishment resulting from egregious sin. See: Old Testament acccount of Sodom and Gomorrah

God hates sin, we are told in the Good Book. But people just keep sinning. In a way, they can't help it. I used to be liberal, not in my head, but in my messed up heart. I have almost always been Republican, but... oh, t hat messed up heart

I thnk it is in Jeremiah where it says that the human heart is "deceitful above all, and desperately wicked"

The head says Fornication is probably not a good idea

The heart says But if we love each other

And so chaos and misery ensues, and innocent lives are brought into the horrible picture and more sins are committed and we just all end up in Hell...

but thank God for the Church Christ founded

"I will build My Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it"

(Mt 16:18)


:sheep:

What mess? The only mess is the one in your mind. Not to mention that all the evidence shows that the more religious a country is, including an embrace of Christianity, the worse off it is for a large number of social factors.

 

[Lon]

What mess? The only mess is the one in your mind.

You haven't been watching the news lately? We've NEVER had school shooting before the ten commandments came off of school walls. That's 200 years of it never happening. Of course media never used to 'glorify' it either. They are as sick as those who went to the gladiator fights. I'm really looking forward one day to a network that refuses to report this so-called 'news' that glorifies the shooter. If we were humane, we'd just report that someone was killed and to pray for their families, without a lot of detail.

 

[Caledvwlch]

You haven't been watching the news lately? We've NEVER had school shooting before the ten commandments came off of school walls. That's 200 years of it never happening.

Correlation and causation, Lon. We've also had less restrictive gun laws over that period. And higher internet speeds and gas prices. And did all the schools really have the Ten Commandments on the wall at some point?

 

[Angel4Truth]

Quote mining aside, there are many of these same Presidents that expressed Christian ideals as well. Some of these are quote mined very much out of context, so are dishonest.

You can Google any one of these men's religious views rather easily.

For instance: George Washington was not only a member of his church, he was also a councilman and asked soldiers to fast and pray to God on a day Congress laid out for it. See here His stately letter to Indians regarding their instruction: "You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are. Congress will do every thing they can to assist you in this wise intention; and to tie the knot of friendship and union so fast, that nothing shall ever be able to loose it."

John Adams' quotes including the treaty of Tripoli were written to appease Muslims who were attacking American ships and history recognizes it as a weakness, a caving-in, to pirates. To redress this as a quote-mine, is inept at best, and dubious by moderation, in attempts by atheists.

I can go on and on, but quote mining the Presidents by atheists has always been an exercise in lying, most often of purpose, which makes it truly evil. It is sad that anyone would feel the need for this kind of unethical platform. I suppose it is politics, but we try not to vote for the ones that are so obvious about it. I'm not sure if you are doing this on purpose or ignorance, I just lift it up in the proper light it deserves.

That is absolutely correct, and when they try to claim some believed in universalism (as what it means today) they do not understand that at that time, a universalist was one who believed that all christian churches had validity (baptists, methodists, roman catholics etc...) they did not believe in the validity of other faiths outside of christianity as universalists today believe.

Thomas Jeffersons issues were infighting among christian denominations, its really sad that the people who quote mine, do not bother to study the issue they think they know.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Correlation and causation, Lon. We've also had less restrictive gun laws over that period. And higher internet speeds and gas prices. And did all the schools really have the Ten Commandments on the wall at some point?

Thats actually incorrect, gun laws before the commandments were removed, were far less restrictive than they are now and almost non existent.

 

[annabenedetti]

You haven't been watching the news lately? We've NEVER had school shooting before the ten commandments came off of school walls. That's 200 years of it never happening. Of course media never used to 'glorify' it either. They are as sick as those who went to the gladiator fights. I'm really looking forward one day to a network that refuses to report this so-called 'news' that glorifies the shooter. If we were humane, we'd just report that someone was killed and to pray for their families, without a lot of detail.

Before school shootings there was school dynamiting.

The Bath School disaster was a series of violent attacks perpetrated by Andrew Kehoe on May 18, 1927, in Bath Township, Michigan, that killed 38 elementary school children and six adults and injured at least 58 other people. Most of the victims were Bath Consolidated School students in the second to sixth grades (7–14 years of age)

Kehoe first killed his wife, firebombed his farm, and detonated a major explosion in the Bath Consolidated School, before committing suicide by detonating a final explosion in his truck. It is to this day the deadliest mass murder in a school in United States history.[1][2]​

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Before school shootings there was school dynamiting.

Wow anna, you mean there was evil in the world before we as a nation turned away from Judeo-Christian laws and culture and became a secular humanist society?

(The things we learn from pagans).

 

[Caledvwlch]

Thats actually incorrect, gun laws before the commandments were removed, were far less restrictive than they are now and almost non existent.

There actually may have been fewer gun laws, you are right. Although, weirdly, it was NRA leadership of the 20's and 30's that helped to write the first federal gun control laws.

So consider me corrected. However I still stand by my questioning of the correlation to 10 Commandments displays in schools.

 

[aCultureWarrior]

Yeah, so much for that pesky thing referred to as freedom of (and freedom from) religion ...

No one can force you to believe in God or accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior Sandy (Christianity isn't about that).

HOWEVER, a nation that embraces God's Word can make sure that pagans like you and anna and your atheist ally Caldewvich (with an "i") don't have a say in it's legislation or culture, because we've seen what happens when you do:

We've turned into a real moral cesspool of a country.

 

[Angel4Truth]

There actually may have been fewer gun laws, you are right. Although, weirdly, it was NRA leadership of the 20's and 30's that helped to write the first federal gun control laws.

So consider me corrected. However I still stand by my questioning of the correlation to 10 Commandments displays in schools.

The first gun law was the National Act in 1934 - due to gangland crime from prohibition and the attempted assassination of FDR.

The United States Supreme Court, in 1968 effectively gutted the National Act of 1934.

As one could possess an NFA firearm and choose not to register it, and not face prosecution due to Fifth Amendment protections, the Act was unenforceable.

They created another set of gun laws in 1968 that was mostly just to control interstate trafficking and taxes on guns and then also in 1968 came the first real controlling gun laws - due to the assassination of Kennedy, and the mass shooting at the university of texas.

Which was

Spoiler

Under the GCA, selling of firearms to certain categories of individuals is prohibited. As quoted from 18 U.S.C. 922 (d):

It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person— (1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year; (2) is a fugitive from justice; (3) is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802)); (4) has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been committed to any mental institution; (5) who, being an alien— (A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or (B) except as provided in subsection (2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(26))); (6) who [2] has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions; (7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship; (8) is subject to a court order that restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child, except that this paragraph shall only apply to a court order that— (A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had the opportunity to participate; and (B) (i) includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or (ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury; or (9) has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Control_Act_of_1968

The next federal gun laws happened in the 80s and then forward.

 

[Lon]

And did all the schools really have the Ten Commandments on the wall at some point?

Yes. And prayer books, and ABC's with scripture references, and stories of the faith of Americans. All began exodus after Madeleine O'Hara succeeded in flipping "Separation of Church and State" on its head to become the exact opposite of what it was up until that time.

It was always seen as a way of protecting people from imposed religion rather than keeping religion out of all state affairs. That was never the intention until this unprecedented overturn, now run amok.

 

[Caledvwlch]

Yes.

How do you know this? Was it some kind of requirement or something?

 

[Lon]

How do you know this? Was it some kind of requirement or something?

Yes, actually. All schools had prayer time in the morning where there was a recitation from the prayer book and moments of silence.

There was no necessity of having the scripture ABC's, but these were what were available for schools at the time, etc.

I'm not sure what effected the ten commandments on every wall, I was just alive when they started to come down. All my school years, the place where they hung, was discolored because the schools didn't paint the walls for many years.

One of my elementary school principals quit the day they came down.

 

[Caledvwlch]

Yes, actually. All schools had prayer time in the morning where there was a recitation from the prayer book and moments of silence.

There was no necessity of having the scripture ABC's, but these were what were available for schools at the time, etc.

I'm not sure what effected the ten commandments on every wall, I was just alive when they started to come down. All my school years, the place where they hung, was discolored because the school didn't paint the walls for many years.

Okay I'll give you all of that and assume it's true, not just for the schools you went to, but all public schools in all states. The fact that those displays were taken down is not responsible for school shootings.

 

[Lon]

Okay I'll give you all of that and assume it's true, not just for the schools you went to, but all public schools in all states. The fact that those displays were taken down is not responsible for school shootings.

I think, when you take something away from children, you have to replace it. Christianity gave the reasons for kids to behave and also gave a sense of self-worth.

When that was removed from the classroom, nothing took its place. The state (Federal Government) abandoned kids at that point, probably hoping the private sector would pick up on it. The gap was too wide and we couldn't 'force' kids to come learn about values and ethics. It was also, at this time, that mothers began working as a rule rather than exception, outside of the home, mostly because the changing economy now demanded it.

This, specifically, is why I'd rather see some joint effort at ethics we all share, and values we all share, rather than nothing at all. The pendulum has to swing back or we will remain in trouble and will continue to see these large inappropriate attacks and responses in the news. Shoot, I'd rather see quotes about being humane from atheists and Muslims on the wall, than nothing at all!

 

[Caledvwlch]

I think, when you take something away from children, you have to replace it. Christianity gave the reasons for kids to behave and also gave a sense of self-worth.

When that was removed from the classroom, nothing took its place. The state (Federal Government) abandoned kids at that point, probably hoping the private sector would pick up on it. The gap was too wide and we couldn't 'force' kids to come learn about values and ethics. It was also, at this time, that mothers began working as a rule rather than exception, outside of the home, mostly because the changing economy now demanded it.

This, specifically, is why I'd rather see some joint effort at ethics we all share, and values we all share, rather than nothing at all. The pendulum has to swing back or we will remain in trouble and will continue to see these large inappropriate attacks and responses in the news. Shoot, I'd rather see quotes about being humane from atheists and Muslims on the wall, than nothing at all!

Hey I think I can almost agree with most of this. :thumb: